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  1. #391
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Last edited by Tiltyred; 01-14-2013 at 03:10 PM.

  2. #392
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    I want to add something to my earlier comment about hurting people. I do constantly think about how what I say will be taken, but I don't always see immediately how it might hurt someone. In that case, I do appreciate being told. I want to take responsibility for my actions. I'm human and I do sometimes say or do things without thinking them through. I've found that whenever I deliberately set out to hurt in the past, I felt so much regret afterwards that now I just don't deliberately set out to hurt. I might entertain the thoughts at times, but won't follow through with any action.

    On the other hand, when someone posts about being hurt by an INFJ, I feel bad for them, but I don't feel like I, personally, should be held responsible for someone else's actions. When I was younger, I used to think that I should apologize for all the hurt in the world, whether I caused it or not, but that is an unrealistic and impossible attitude to have (and also a bit megalomaniac/martyr-ish). If there's some comfort or insight I can offer, fine. But I draw the line at taking blame.
    For my part, I stand by what I said earlier, which I quoted above. The bolded parts are me setting a boundary.

    From my perspective part of the problems have stemmed from taking a personal hurt and generalizing it over a whole group of people. I'll use an example I used earlier: A woman has been hurt by a man. She then goes to her male friend and says that all men are scum. He says he understands that some men are scum, but she keeps insisting that all men are scum and that her friend is just not taking responsibility for his gender *and that all men need to learn this important lesson. @uumlau suggested that INFJs need to use more modifiers such as "perhaps" and "maybe", but I think everyone would benefit by not over-generalizing, or at least by stating that they realize that it's not all or nothing.

    *ETA
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  3. #393
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Ok, I can't not respond to that. Peacebaby
    I didn't sleep well last night either. Want to just hit re-set and proceed from there?
    Yes.
    Here's to better sleep tonight.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #394
    Glycerine
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    Regardless of my type, I am most definitely a strong Ni user. I have always viewed Ni a context framing tool. Asking questions especially "why" helps to frame information into a relevant context. When NJs don't ask questions, that's when they are most susceptible to being paranoid and delusions because the context will tend to be based on unverified assumptions.

  5. #395
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I have a hard time honestly believing that just because someone uses Fi or Ne or Si that those little digs are something that is just a part of their honest communication and if objections are made to them, the INFJs are just insisting that people play in their sandbox or else they won't play at all. I found that an incredibly insulting simplification of what was going on.
    I guess I ignore that stuff to a large degree because I already jettison it as personal bias, even when it's leveled in the opposite direction (INFJ digs to INFP). I am sorry if my metaphor offended you though - it wasn't intended to simplify this issue or ignore what's bothering you. It just means, you can't ignore those digs in the way I do. I get that. I do see them, I just immediately de-value them.

    And somehow, I hope a metaphor manages to say more than I can with regular words. Sorry it left that part out for you. To you "digs" are bad behaviour that illustrate bad faith.

    I think I get it dear INFJ's - sending hugs to all. Oh sorry, you don't need a hug? Let's go out for coffee drinks then, I'm buying and let's chat some more.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #396
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    ^ Earlier I brought up the J/P, but was looking at it in a different sense. But, it was either overlooked, or inaccurate, or deemed irrelevant. [or, it made no sense to anyone]

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I've said this before, a long while back, but I've mused on the possibility that just as NFP's/P's in general have more 'confidence' and solidity in their internal world, and are much more flowy externally, NFJ's/J's in general have more 'confidence' and solidity in their external world, and are much more flowy or uncertain internally.

    SO, P's value and 'need' that freedom externally, and THEY feel manipulated when Fe/Te is put upon them, as it's forcing them to solidify what they prefer not to. J's value and 'need' that freedom internally, and they (we) feel manipulated when Ti/Fi is put upon them...so all of these sorts of threads seem to be forcing the Ni-dom hand in resolving conclusively internally, when Ni-doms just don't tend to work that way. Or, I don't, at least. I realize this thought isn't fully fleshed-out, but I'm trying to get out how different types feel manipulated/pressured in different ways; that our trigger points are quite different. So for me, a fellow J poking at me or being bossy is like, 'meh', whatever.... I don't react in the same way, and I can easily resist it.... nor do I read any ill-intent in them trying to organize the external world in a certain way. But a P trying to get me to organize my internal world a certain way?? That's a whole different can of worms.
    To tie back to your post, @skylights, yes, external - actions themselves - probably does have a lot more 'meaning' and focus to J's than it does to P's; it's more solid for us. [It's also why we may be annoying to many, with all of our caveats...well, at least I throw in a lot of caveats or maybes to indicate whenever I'm NOT sure of something...which irl is possibly often, and why the phrase 'I don't know, I'd have to think about it' is pretty common for me.] When we externalize, it's usually after we've honed in on something; hence more definitive. Hence why we [I] am bad at externalizing mid-process...it's not natural for me. So I put a lot of thought into what I put out externally... it's more of the finished product, whereas for me, the internal is highly unfinished.

    VERY easy to see how misreadings would be rampant between J's/P's, Ni/Ne, etc.

    I'm probably totally muddying things again... definitely not my intention!
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  7. #397
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    A question: does an NFP wanting you to deal with their way of seeing things feel like them forcing you to organize your internal world?
    lol.. no problem. It's a wall-o-text Thread.

    In short: Yes, it does. I feel pressured.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  8. #398
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights
    Hah, that's mind-blowing. To me (and I assume to most NFPs) wanting someone else to look through your eyes is a very baseline tenet of interacting with other people. I seek to see through the other's perspective and I assume they seek to understand through mine. That's why NFPs go on and on about themselves...

    So how could OA's list, for example, be posed to an INFJ in a way that doesn't feel like that? It seems like this thread in and of itself is asking for INFP personal experiences of INFJs. We have to translate to outside exchange? More deal with behavioral aspects of INFJs than internal character?


    Man, to be honest, I'm not sure the list applies as much to this. I mean, with the list it was more that it just didn't make sense to me, for various reasons I tried to outline in a few of my earlier posts. [sorry..don't blame you or anyone for not seeing... I just don't want to repeat myself]. It wasn't that I felt pressured.

    ... there are a lot of things going on in this thread!


    [To a mod: Somehow this post also got set up as a Blog entry - could a mod delete that entry????]
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

    My Photography and Watercolor Fine Art Prints!!! Cascade Colors Fine Art Prints
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  9. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Hah, that's mind-blowing. To me (and I assume to most NFPs) wanting someone else to look through your eyes is a very baseline tenet of interacting with other people. I seek to see through the other's perspective and I assume they seek to understand through mine. That's why NFPs go on and on about themselves...

    So how could OA's list, for example, be posed to an INFJ in a way that doesn't feel like that? It seems like this thread in and of itself is asking for INFP personal experiences of INFJs. We have to translate to outside exchange? More deal with behavioral aspects of INFJs than internal character?

    Like: INFJs often seem to display paranoid tendencies, for example honing in on people who barely have the INFJ on their radar.

    ?

    If this is acceptable, I'd actually be really curious to "translate" the whole list and see what INFJs would have to say in response. There are definitely elements on there that I have felt, too, with NFJs in my life, and I would be interested in hearing the INFJ take on those.
    Some of us do like to see through other's perspective but only so we can perhaps broaden and mature our own. However some of us talk about ourselves for a different reason. I really only care about myself and listen to others so I can advance my own point. The set up is very performer and performance in my mind even though I am often relatively invisible (unless I go on a blitzkreig diatribe.) But alas here I am again listening to myself rattle with only a base awareness of what you actually wrote above!

    Note: The top paragraph (save for the small segment at the paranoia at the bottom) are the only parts which are responding to your question.

    As for yet another unrequested attempt at derailing I will assert a position with absolutely no proof from a slightly cynical (and bored) thought process which has dismissed the delicate inter-woven nuance of the thread sown over the 41 pages with a tl;dr stamp and had not explored it further. I think INFJs only care about themselves too and any selfless notion of theirs is smoke and mirrors conjured up by their mind and to the opposition of their deeper will. That they are cold machines and their output is splattered with sauce so it appears sweet. Their entire re-shaping of the landscape is impersonal and uncaring of all yet it convinces itself it is not. Paying no heed to what they have reshaped or the actual value to those the work they sought to reshape. Perhaps there was a good reason for that was is? Perhaps it serves a greater purpose? Perhaps its not the work of villains but the folly of fools? Yet it is reshaped anyway and I ask: As the INFJ shapes the context with a meta-perspective shift does it know how "good" it has understood the context. I have been told that the Ni-dom will accept their decision on the basis that they did enough with the understanding they had but how does one know they know enough?

    As for the paranoid point I will assume it is another tragic case of stacking the contexts together incorrectly and have come to the incorrect conclusion. Ni thinks it has done enough but it has not. The patterns perceived are literally not of this world (because they don't exist.) All hell breaks loose at this point.

    Feel free to ignore or respond to this post but half the time I would forget to read a response to your quote. I hope you don't mind me bitching about INFJs, it's only because there are no type ones, twos or sixes threads for me to target (enneagram hate is more fun IMHO but I can't really bring it in here.)

  10. #400
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    You'll be relieved to know, since you can't be bothered to read, that I have no response to that.

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