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  1. #31
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I have a lot of negative things I could say... and just might say. It doesn't mean I don't like (some) INFJs, even those who annoy me, but I certianly don't see them as the demi-gods others around here worship them as.
    This seems unfair. There was more of this when I was first on the site, but if anything, these days the INFJs get a lot of bad press: neurotic, self-righteous, constant and gleeful door-slamming, fickle, you name it.

    I've seen little or any of the "demi-god" stuff for ages. Not that I'm looking for it; anyone who knows me on here is likely to see that I'm more likely to decry the "INFJs are psychic wonder-beings" reputation, than hold it up. (Which I also think goes for many of the INFJs here.)

    The INFJs I relate to on here are more likely to be pretty honest about their own flaws. Believe me, I am aware that I can be self-righteous and rigid at least some of the time...
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  2. #32
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I can't speak for other INFJs, but these are a few of the flaws I see most commonly in myself:
    1) Tendency to avoid blame or feeling that I am disappointing others. As a result, overpromise and don't deliver and therefore do just what I was hoping to avoid.
    2) Grandiose dreams with poor follow through. I think this has something to do with Ni. What you see farther along is like a mirage that keeps disappearing or a dream that you just woke up from and try to recreate. Anything you create seems like a poor replication of the glory it ought to be. And so you put it off or scrap it instead of finishing the project.
    3) Bad with details that are uninteresting or difficult for me.
    4) Procrastination with things I am unsure of or need to think about more.
    5) Reluctance to look at things from another point of view once my own thought structure is in place.
    6) Discounting an idea if the person it comes from has insufficient credibility with me.
    7) Giving people things they don't want in an attempt to be helpful and supportive.
    8) Avoidance of emotionally painful situations, rather than dealing with it head on as things start feeling dicey.
    9) Seeming judgey to some people (usually in my inner circle), even if I don't say anything negative to them. I think it mostly has to do with deciding whether the good would outweigh the bad in bringing it up.
    10) Don't adapt well to others, just distance self instead. That is one from your list I'd agree with. I think though it has more to do with it being just as difficult to change my thinking structure as it is for you to change the perceptions you have built up through Fi. It's easier to disengage with people who are too different from me, than to have constant conflict or ditch something I actually believe to be important and true. It's one of the number one reasons I can't be on a committee. I need to either be a drone or a boss but not a collaborator. It just doesn't work.
    11) Bring things up that bother me much after the fact. Not fun for other people and seems overly critical. I have a hard time deciding which things are important and which aren't until the last straw and then it all comes rushing out and that's no good either. I don't like being that way. Just don't know how to do it better.
    12) A bit inflexible and reluctant to try something unless I know exactly how I'll feel about it beforehand.
    This is something that struck me when I used to hang out on the INFJ forum - a number of INFJs are brutally honest about their personal flaws. Other people may assume they are not because the topic doesn't come up, so if it isn't being explicitly said, the assumption is that it is not acknowledged.

    The INFJ/INFP communication difference can be really complex because from my experience growing up with an INFP sister, I think we can share many of the same strengths and flaws externally, but for different internal reasons. It has made it really complicated to make sense of it. It think it also makes it easy for either type to take those flaws and project them onto the other category. If there was a reverse thread, you could well see similar complaints.

    One generalization that could be said is that when Fe is controlling, it focuses on moderating external behaviors, and when Fi is controlling it focuses on moderating internal ideals? I don't think either type is by nature controlling, but can become so based on experience, and so it can manifest itself differently.

    I think both INFJs and INFPs should be placed on pedestals because we are all pretty awesome. I am often floored by reading INFP insights about human nature on this forum and my sister and I have marvelous discussions because we come up with different ideas that compliment on the same topics. I feel like the ideal of INFJ/INFP communication is a perfect balance that completes the picture and since NFs are holistic in thinking, it is a beautiful thing to experience.

    But now on with the thread topic about the negative aspects of Ni-Fe'ers...
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  3. #33
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    This seems unfair. There was more of this when I was first on the site, but if anything, these days the INFJs get a lot of bad press: neurotic, self-righteous, constant and gleeful door-slamming, fickle, you name it.

    I've seen little or any of the "demi-god" stuff for ages. Not that I'm looking for it; anyone who knows me on here is likely to see that I'm more likely to decry the "INFJs are psychic wonder-beings" reputation, than hold it up. (Which I also think goes for many of the INFJs here.)

    The INFJs I relate to on here are more likely to be pretty honest about their own flaws. Believe me, I am aware that I can be self-righteous and rigid at least some of the time...
    To be honest, nobody gets a good rep around here because whenever anyone says anything remotely nice about any type, there are always a few who will cut them back down to size (I am sure I took part in that ). There is about as much glorification of INFPs as INFJs from what I can tell even when I typed as INFJ. There seems to be a hyper-focus on our own individual types which makes sense.

    As a NFJ, I try to be brutally honest with my flaws because I don't want them used as a weapon against me moreso than me being "sanctimonious".

    But then again NFJs can be highly critical and perfectionistic, which can mean they either are rather blunt about their flaws or turn to a measure of "double standards" in order to avoid the flaws and reconcile them in a deluded fashion. Either way, we can be blindsided by our flaws just like anyone else.

  4. #34
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    err, let me interrupt to say that although spanish have difficulty understanding (spoken) portuguese, the opposite is not true. even an uneducated portuguese will understand (spoken and written) spanish very well. the problem is possibly a case of "sound", because portuguese is too "closed" a language to be understood by spanish. but spanish can usually understand written portuguese quite well, as can italians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    I've just got to know. Do you think there's anyway to fix that? Maybe the Spainard could learn to speak Portuguese or vice versa. I mean he'd still be a Spainard and the Portuguese would still be Portuguese but they'd at least be able to communicate. I guess that's what I want to do. Learn to speak Portuguese. [Also an imperfect analogy, but the best I can do at the moment.]

  5. #35
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Thanks, Pink.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I have a lot of negative things I could say... and just might say. It doesn't mean I don't like (some) INFJs, even those who annoy me, but I certianly don't see them as the demi-gods others around here worship them as.

    @sorenx7 will find this familiar...

    I will joke that their only flaw is being "too perfect" because that's all they'll cop to.

    INFPs & INFJs often do well in the same realms, but with different approaches. Socionics gets it right there, although I don't think it always leads to misunderstandings. This doesn't bother the INFP, in general, but INFJs seem to think there's "a way" and that of course, is their way. This makes INFJs either diminish the INFP's strengths and/or resent them. As a result, you actually hear much more admiration from the INFP camp, which creates an imbalance & eventual resentment from the INFP. The INFJ is patronizing in trying to "guide" someone who is already superior in some capacity.

    INFPs are excessively humble, and will readily admit faults while not giving themselves enough credit, whereas INFJs tend to overrate themselves & divert criticisms so as to not have to cop to any faults. This works to basically leave people with the impression that they are nearly faultless. Basically, INFJs seem to believe their own hype & manipulate others into believing it also.

    However, as noted, INFJs tend to have a major blindspot when it comes to humility. That's a Ni-dom problem, but at least with INTJs it's out there, with no faking otherwise; INFJs often have this facade of being caring & self-sacrificing, but then they're very fickle & self-serving internally (which they conveniently put a spin on so they don't have to face their own selfishness).

    ---

    Oh, I found THIS post

    The INFJ is patronizing in trying to "guide" someone who is already superior in some capacity.

    That sentence especially struck me. Yes, I know what it's like to have to experience that. I think everything you have posted here is valid, though. I could probably be a little more specific. However, I think it's probably better that I don't.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    err, let me interrupt to say that although spanish have difficulty understanding (spoken) portuguese, the opposite is not true. even an uneducated portuguese will understand (spoken and written) spanish very well. the problem is possibly a case of "sound", because portuguese is too "closed" a language to be understood by spanish. but spanish can usually understand written portuguese quite well, as can italians.

    Although not fluent in either, I have heard people who are fluent say exactly what you state here and believe it to be totally accurate.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    To be honest, nobody gets a good rep around here because whenever anyone says anything remotely nice about any type, there are always a few who will cut them back down to size (I am sure I took part in that ). There is about as much glorification of INFPs as INFJs from what I can tell even when I typed as INFJ. There seems to be a hyper-focus on our own individual types which makes sense.

    As a NFJ, I try to be brutally honest with my flaws because I don't want them used as a weapon against me moreso than me being "sanctimonious".

    But then again NFJs can be highly critical and perfectionistic, which can mean they either are rather blunt about their flaws or turn to a measure of "double standards" in order to avoid the flaws and reconcile them in a deluded fashion. Either way, we can be blindsided by our flaws just like anyone else.
    Having been around both extensively, I can say there is a world of difference in dealing with them. Based on my personal experience at least, ENFJs (although they can be harsh) seem to understand me much better than INFJs do.

  9. #39
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    my biggest flaw is simply being oblivious to the social story.

    my constitution is deeply habituated within me, often stubbornly so, and this obliviousness is the result of a lack of development in other ways. i will at times resist simply owning the fault, but only in the sense that i resist others utilizing pejorative judgments that themselves are constituted within another set of conditions that is not the same and is not superior simply because it is connected to more powerful ways of playing within a particular social space. so instead i often try to find a common denominator, through abstraction, to re-orient the scales. to find an equilibrium for shared learning to best result. i don't think it's fair to watch them tip in service of a direction of change as much as being part of a larger, more reflexive process of feedback. a completed circle. an ability to recognize how the spaces themselves constitute the patterns of conditions from which we can make judgments at all. the spaces that typological thinking demarcate (even tho most of us use it to try to change other types and demand apologies for how we've been treated in the past by those "types" that we deem based on the political boundaries that emerge in our negotiations of what types are and in our own anonymous sourcing of "facts").

    at the same time, my social development, as an inferior so type, hinders me. in contrast to updating the story of others, i think in terms of me too much. in terms of sx self-aggrandizement. meanwhile, as an e5, an e8 shadow, a willful body determined to know its own power lies beneath my habitual awareness. i either completely resist the use of power, which takes me beyond the edge of what i can realistically be (setting up those j predictions, those shoulds, in ways that are too disconnected from reality to be fair to me which would allow me to be fair to the world, to be integrated as an interior and as an exterior at the same time), which undermines my foundation and self-efficacy, and leaves me needy and more manipulative as a result. contradictions are everywhere, but the Fe guess system is what it is. we still live towards something at all times. to try to balance the idea-ness of this towards with the moment is the challenge.

    i think the most annoying thing about infjs in general is their goddamned preciousness. the desire to never have waves. avoid conflict at all costs. comparing everything to an ideal of what is beautiful. at times refusing to fight for anything because they identify with their ideals too much, which are simply their ideas of themselves. an unwillingness to let go of their desire for harmony with their values (/motives) when deeper issues and higher priorities sometimes need to take the forefront. both internally and externally, and to know the difference between the two. otherwise, there's too much self-referentiality (tangled chains of meaning with no beginning and no end) to move forward, open up to uncertainty, learn from experience, and be wrong (in the composite eyes of the aggregation of all the eyes through which they can see). it prevents them from, at the same time, learning to use their own, and from staying with themselves enough to recognize the inherent conflicts that can be reconciled not simply from a higher order of meaning but from the creative fluctuations that emerge as a result of this instability. and that exists within us just as much as it exists outside of us, a fact that prevents us from losing awareness of what it's like to be fully immersed in experience and instead requires us to notice changes and stay in the flow of time, because it too has much to teach us. and because it is a central way in which we can know and be with others, and ourselves.

    giving us shit about this distance from the moment, however, is also unfair. this is like criticizing an infp for inferior Te. it's easy for it to just feel like impatience and a lack of acceptance, because it expects too much too soon. we still try to be present in the ways that we can be. we are still trying to influence in the ways that seem right to us. we are still committing to what we think is important. we are still really good at listening in some highly unusual ways that can help people with meaning traps. and it's true, much can get lost in the translation between the infp and the infj way, but this loss happens in both directions. im my own life, i have so much experience making sense of moments in which we've both misheard each other. to feel like you are treated as if you are not even trying is frustrating because we are thinking about the gap all the damn time. and it is the joke orangeappled says. we are trying to be too perfect, so that we miss the point because we overcommit to solving the problem in one way that is bound to fail. for us, we inherently focus on the problem of bridging the gap and creating common denominators. to find quasi-stable methods for comparison (to help us all see ourselves in a shared context) and to establish a communication network that can thrive. for me this results in a self constituted to give up itself to bridge the gap, motivated by the self-aggrandizing desire to be the best bridge and bind the best self, losing itself in the process of not having a self to give because it is solely fixated on the motive of being the giver (also e4 --> e2 tension). it sounds silly, circular, and paradoxical, but this is true of any "type," any "cognitive function" seen in isolation. no function is sufficient to represent the whole of the socio-cognitive reality that we are part of. we feel this and try to live up to this understanding, which often results in high expectations of consideration from others. Te lives in a land of black and white.

    and with infps, the most dangerous pattern is feeling condemned unfairly by another while at the same time feeling superior. this often results in the transliteration of thinking styles. because both types, and especially e4s, recognize the contradictions in any claim to superior value. infjs too recognize that our ideals and values are always constructs that we use to mediate our boundaries and patterns of connection, but what we focus on is an attention to how those must be negotiated across a great variety of orders. we think in terms of orders. my assumption, and maybe this speaks to infj assumptions in general, is that everything has function. our ability to recognize this is a necessity to live in the relativity that we are tossed into. it is a way of comparing value for orders of things rather than simply at an embodied, subjective level, an experiential level. it is a way of acceptance and faith-building and not simply avoidance. it is not simply blind purpose but a central aspect of the evolutionary process. it helps us organize our guesses, rather than thinking that ex post facto "reasons" are enough, or that time can be slowed down to allow reason to be the sole guiding light, or to bask in the false sense that experience can exist without meaning (which is itself the process of constellating across orders).

    also, it's really frustrating feeling like your ability to describe your experience is immediately written off as a way of manipulation and shirking the responsibility to change by others who rely on the power of social expectation, of j, even when they pretend like what they are fighting is the j world. because we all use social expectation when we make a case for anything. it is part of all of us, part of what binds us together not just socially but individually. we all use meanings that have various weights without seeing why those meanings are weighted the way they are. we have to. they organize us. they are efficiency. they are the structure of intelligence that provides the context for experience. the conditions of communicating across domains of experience. we cannot unpack the world at all times. as an inj, and probably an awkward e5, it's especially frustrating when those others are playing the "common sense" game in ways that seem deliberately ignorant in order to utilize social resources unreflexively (/without responsibility). when your describe yourself, what you are at your core not simply to issue a claim to RIGHTS but to offer an account of a kind of experience, reflexive in the ways you can be, a kind of humanity that deserves respect and a sincere attempt to relate to it and meet it halfway as well. even as we at times need pushing because we get stuck in too many orders and forget what it's like to be a person who shits, whose stomach growls, and who must politic with their own desires just like everyone else. the whole being above this thing is a categorical error that plagues us, but the underlying why is not bad, and it constitutes a path that we must take in our own individuation.

    finally, the T act of visualization is absolutely necessary to help us cut through our ideas and see the outcomes in a more precise way. without it, we are somewhat helpless, and this feeling of helplessness does produce a great deal of existential and social anxiety. visualization, or perhaps simulation more broadly, helps us ground ourselves in ways that can be measured for likelihood. it brings us closer to the kind of learning that produces subjective, experiential ethics, the ability to relate to others' stories of what has happened by thinking about the outside world, by the descriptions of the event that you can manage when you experience it as a kind of simulated process. without these movies, we have no flow, and cannot merge and diverge fluidly from the worlds of others.

  10. #40
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I think I've said enough in the thread Zbuck linked ... so I'll leave it at that. Unless you have a specific question.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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