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  1. #381
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Highlander, Uulau, Starry, Southern Kross, and Glycerine help me understand and help me not feel so frustrated, and Rasofy helps by always making me laugh. Dunno how they feel about me, but I grow in affection towards them. Toward you, not so much. But life is long and who knows what may happen in the future.

    Your advice on the relationship & mature subforums tend to be really good, which I enjoy.

    Fwiw, I think you are ignoring people that you could learn a lot from, PeaceBaby included.

  2. #382
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I take your opinion under advisement and I thank you for it.

  3. #383
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Highlander, Uulau, Starry, Southern Kross, and Glycerine help me understand and help me not feel so frustrated, and Rasofy and ShortnSweet help by making me laugh. Dunno how they feel about me, but I grow in affection towards them. Toward you, not so much. But life is long and who knows what may happen in the future.
    One thing to remember, Tilty, is that while both INFPs and INFJs are generally very loving, caring people, they're "differently prickly." I see this different prickliness as mostly being an Ni/Si thing, though Fi and Fe play a bit of a role, too.

    INFPs are prickly in terms of tone, in terms of overall gestalt. There will be things that simply rub them the wrong way, and there is no obvious cause and effect. The feeling just is, and the notion of a proximate cause seems nonsensical. (There were lots of causes, not just one. It's everything at once, and there is no neat and tidy story to explain it.) @PeaceBaby is essentially saying, "That rubs me the wrong way. Can you see why?" But she never quite explains explicitly why. It's just like what annoys me from INTPs: they'll hint, cajole, and prod that you're wrong about something, but never explicitly say why it's wrong. It's always "an exercise left for the reader." You either figure it out for yourself, or you don't. Similarly, the essence of the INFP's reaction is always left for others to figure out, based on clues that don't quite make sense. A large part of the problem is that the INxP version of "why" is answered in terms of Si: it is simply true, it exists because all of this other stuff exists, and if it weren't true, then the entire world wouldn't make sense. (This is why I used the word "gestalt" earlier.)

    In my case, I understand INFPs, because I can figure out how to resonate with that Fi point of view, but I still have to translate it into my own sense of Ni cause-and-effect. With INTPs, if they haven't bothered trying to use more cause-and-effect language, I end up having to ping them over and over again, gradually getting bits and pieces of data, until I finally get the piece that lets my Ni organize it all into its own Ni system. I suspect this annoys the INTPs greatly, and if they're not already a friend, they're wondering how I could be so clueless, because isn't the truth so very obvious?

    INFJs, on the other hand, are prickly about causes and responsibilities. They need to know why you did what you did, why you feel what you feel. There had to be a reason, and they can find and understand that reason, they're for the most part happy. Without that reason, they start probing with questions that sound remarkably accusatory (INTJs do the same thing on more fact-based matters). An INTJ might say, "Are you done, yet?" and unintentionally convey impatience, an accusation that one SHOULD be done by now, when it really is just a factual query (the INTJ needs to know whether it's OK to start, yet). Similarly, an INFJ might ask, "Why did you do that?" and actually be wondering why in a non-accusatory way, but it will come across as completely accusatory and sound like they're implying that of course no one would ever do that, that there isn't possibly a good reason for doing that.

    I end up being able to understand INFJs, for the most part, because I always have a response to "Why did you do that?" There is usually a reason behind what I'm doing, though it's in Te terms, not Fe terms. The only real issue I run into with INFJs is that they'll occasionally accuse me of doing something for an Fe-style reason which never would have occurred to me (e.g., thinking that it's because I like or hate someone, not seeing that my true reason is that it optimized things in a practical way).

    Thus we set the stage for the battle: the INFPs rely on the tone of the INFJ's means of addressing uncertainty, even as the INFPs seem to stonewall the INFJ's legitimate questions. The INFP's responses in turn tend to suggest that the INFJ is doing something wrong, that the INFJ doesn't really care (or isn't really emotionally aware), when really it's just the INFP is puzzled at the apparent lack of understanding.

    This is why I believe it's mostly Si/Ni issues: INFPs and INFJs intellectually inhabit different "problem spaces", and translating between them is difficult. If my experience with INTPs is any guide, it's more on YOU (INFP or INFJ) to figure out how to communicate across that barrier than it's on the other person. If you're an INFJ having issues with an INFP, try saying, "I'm trying to understand. Could you explain more to help me understand?" instead of "Why did you do that?" The former will resonate as cooperative with the INFP, while the latter will come across as accusatory. Moreover, be especially careful about offering up hypotheses about why the INFP does or feels anything: if the hypothesis isn't in the form of a question with lots of "maybes" and "perhaps" making it clear that it is a question, not an accusation, it will come across as an accusation. Being mocking or sarcastic is generally out of the question, with INFPs, unless you're on very good terms. If you're an INFP having issues with an INFJ, try stating your feelings in a more declarative, "if-then" kind of way, e.g., "When thus-and-such happens, it makes me feel bad, and I tend to react by doing X," instead of, "Isn't it obvious why I'm reacting the way I am?" Focus on specific cases: instead of discussing an overall principle, present an application of the principle. The tough part on the INFP side is shrugging off everything that sounds accusatory: if you get too upset, it becomes difficult to focus on the communication.

    I've found that it's generally very easy to get along with other people, as long as you give them the benefit of the doubt, and understand that their version of prickliness isn't wrong or evil, it's just how they're wired. It's fairly easy to work around if you see it, and especially easy to work around if both sides see it. Only the most ornery/crabby people don't respond well to this approach, at which point it doesn't matter what type you are ... they don't get along with most people.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  4. #384
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Oh, I saw the point of the hyperbole but it doesn't appeal to me. I see it as distortion and distraction, not as something bringing clarity and reducing "white noise". It sounds to me like a child reduced to calling names when an argument doesn't go their way. Not an effective tool at all in my eyes, and, at the risk of sounding humourless, not my brand of 'wit'.
    Nice use of the coffee emoticon - you get points for that!

    But you know this pissed me off - for like 10 seconds (and then...a leaf blew by my window and I was happy again) And it almost had me hitting delete on the thoughtful response I currently have saved to you in WORD. And it wasn't so much about you making sure to get a shitty little dig in at me - that's fine. It's just that I like to be understood prior to gettin hit with 'shitty little digs' and this has not occurred in this instance so let me provide you with the proper material to work with. If my 'list', outlining OAs ongoing message to the INFJs, was an exaggeration...it was by such a small percentage that it hardly registers in my mind...and is why I very much appreciate @PeaceBaby understanding this and responding accordingly. I was being quite truthful in what I wrote. <--And will now wait on pins-and-needles for a brand new set of 'digs' from you. Looking forward to it.

    What you did above though...it does assist me in illustrating my point. It is exactly what OA does over and over and over again to the INFJs. See it's funny because your message/response to me in this thread... aside from the whole 'The INFJs are upset because they are being put on the defensive due to OAs unvarnished criticism' I could have written that myself...and in many ways it was like you were merely 'preaching to the choir'. But that one thing separated you and I. I did NOT see the INFJ response here as merely being a response to criticism...it was pretty clear to me that something else was going on...something else that I was missing because of my MBTI. And so what I did is go back and read as many of OAs posts as I could...and they are filled with 'shitty little comments' just like your's above. And I'm sorry but there's no 'oh she's just abrasive' about this. Her posts are filled with shitty remarks that are meant to hurt and belittle - not understand. She claims to be seeking understanding when it suits her...and then takes as many opportunities as she can to get in her condescending remarks. And so of course the INFJs will ask...'What the hell do you want from us? Do you want to understand or do you just want to continue throwing shit down from your high perch?' But maybe INFPs generally don't want to understand just get your little insults in? idk.

  5. #385
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    [...]
    INFPs are prickly in terms of tone, in terms of overall gestalt. There will be things that simply rub them the wrong way, and there is no obvious cause and effect. The feeling just is, and the notion of a proximate cause seems nonsensical. (There were lots of causes, not just one. It's everything at once, and there is no neat and tidy story to explain it.) PeaceBaby is essentially saying, "That rubs me the wrong way. Can you see why?" But she never quite explains explicitly why. It's just like what annoys me from INTPs: they'll hint, cajole, and prod that you're wrong about something, but never explicitly say why it's wrong. It's always "an exercise left for the reader." You either figure it out for yourself, or you don't. Similarly, the essence of the INFP's reaction is always left for others to figure out, based on clues that don't quite make sense. A large part of the problem is that the INxP version of "why" is answered in terms of Si: it is simply true, it exists because all of this other stuff exists, and if it weren't true, then the entire world wouldn't make sense. (This is why I used the word "gestalt" earlier.)
    This bothers me for this reason: In past posts INFP's have stated that INFJ's need to stop the *mind reading* stuff and take what they say at face value, but if I'm interpreting you correctly, then *mind reading* is exactly what will end up happening because, "You either figure it out for yourself, or you don't.", to quote you. Please explain to me what I'm missing.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  6. #386
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Thanks for your thoughts tilty; appreciated as always.

    When I first read your post it made me feel hurt and angry though because it seemed to be a character assassination on me. I'm trying to take it in the spirit of feistiness however! Be aware though that this creates as much "white noise" for me as OA's approach probably does for you. It makes my brain freeze. It might mean my responses below have a little more emo in them. I'll try to keep the volume low.

    The most stupid part of this whole thread is that I haven't taken a position in here on INFJ's. I haven't even answered the OP !

    I'll try to answer your post though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Your post is funny to me because I had you on Ignore, but people quoted things I recognized as coming from you, and I wanted to comment on what they had quoted, and then decided to take you off Ignore so I could see what else you'd written, and I saw this gem.
    Should I be honored? I don't think anyone has ever put me on "Ignore" before. Thanks for taking me off of it though, I like talking to you. You're spunky and firey as always!

    It's ironic because what I had realized was that you want someone to confirm that you are indisputably, by virtue of your type and instinctual stack, best qualified to understand and perform certain interactions, and the INFJ in our last go-round was odd because she did not respond to your obviously correct (because how could it be otherwise, since you are an INFP and an so-dom and you will do what is right no matter what) way of handling the situation.
    No, I didn't see her as odd, nor did I see myself as correct or particularly virtuous. I took a stab at helping, which feels like the right thing to do when you feel someone is having a bad day. It's not that I knew the right way to help or handle the situation. I didn't expect her to conform to my approach.

    You wanted an INFJ on the forum to disown the INFJ in your story and for an INFJ here to say she was incomprehensible, and you were sensible/sensitive/right/correct. It was not clear to me that your ego was smarting.
    No, I didn't want an INFJ here to disown the INFJ from my story, and my ego was not smarting. Remember, I have no Fe, little Te. I don't have an ego stake in it like Je users do. After all, I shared a story that made me look kind of socially unaware, and that's one thing I do think I'm good at. So no, my ego wasn't tied in or invested here. I know this will be hard to imagine, but I come at every situation from a tentative position. I assume I'm wrong most of the time.

    I don't even think I'm right when I'm giving directions in the car!

    See, I don't need someone to take a position, take a side. Is there any way I can help make that more apparent? It surprises me a bit that you don't see it even after all this time and interaction with myself and other INFP's. And sure, it's nice if someone can appreciate my POV, but I don't need it. I'm not making a team. It doesn't help me ... figure anything out. I have no drive to do that.

    From my perspective - a work friend was hurting; I tried to help. Does it make me feel good if I can help? Sure. So I tried. Did it work out as well that day as I hoped? No. Enter regret.

    I thought you actually wanted to discuss the topic. I experienced frustration with you because you presented something that confused you, I felt I was able to see what you missed, I pointed it out to you, and you continued to argue that there's no way you could have known it, even though she told you beforehand, etc., and you harbored bad feelings about that conversation and carried it into this one. You brought it up the minute I appeared. Which surprised and did not surprise me.
    Yet what was left to discuss? Let's expand a little more - it was a story where I had shared only a small portion of detail and I only shared enough to illustrate I had made a error in judgement in my interaction that day. It was a story to REVEAL my own blind spots. But you took an approach to tell me I had made errors in judgement and had blind spots. I didn't find it helpful to be told something I already knew.

    Now, that being said, I did appreciate that it helped me see from your perspective how you WOULD view it. It was great to hear what might be helpful too, a cup of tea, a helpful "Are you alright?". So I took that to heart. It was very useful.

    But FYI, I brought the story in as a commonly known illustration to most of the current posters in thread, not specifically because you are here, nor because I harbor any bad feelings towards you from the last time it occurred. There's no secret agenda.

    NO FEELY. THINKY THINKY. lol it's hopeless...
    Can anyone here make the Ti corollary to that "icky gucky" feeling statement I made and transform it? I think you do need something like that. I knew I wasn't wording it from a translation perspective correctly but I took a stab at it. Plus I couldn't sleep. I had to try something!

    You're the one who brings the owies to be kissed! If you want an INFJ to kiss your owie, could you be clearer about it to begin with? Something like, "A mean INFJ did this to me and now my competence is challenged and I feel insecure -- could someone please kiss my owie?"
    Well, no. Maybe that's one way to approach it but there's no owies here on my end - I don't need this kind of behaviour directed my way. I haven't asked for this or want this, but I DO know people who do.

    My ISFJ mom (and yes, before anyone says everyone has an SFJ mom, my mom has tested as ISFJ) she basically wants me to agree that she's the reasonable one and other people are being the problems. I can nod my head, and say the right things, and help her process the way she needs to. Still though, she takes no ownership of the pain she causes other people, inadvertently or not. She feels a lot of stuff and doesn't want other people to be hurt, but she sets very good boundaries and doesn't take on what she doesn't believe she owns. INFJ's don't fall far from that tree, but you DO differ in that you don't set good boundaries by comparison.

    So, can anyone say it plain, please, how you need me to respond here to break the wall so we can get to the next level? Again - use the words that best fit you. Write something out. My feely language isn't cutting it, I know. Use the right corollary to translate to Ti thinking language here.

    Highlander, Uulau, Starry, Southern Kross, and Glycerine help me understand and help me not feel so frustrated, and Rasofy helps by always making me laugh. Dunno how they feel about me, but I grow in affection towards them. Toward you, not so much. But life is long and who knows what may happen in the future.
    I'm sure they're happy to know that. And I am so glad that you've left a wee crack through which I too might grow and find myself in your good graces someday.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #387
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Thanks for your post, umlauu. A lot of that rings true with me. Honestly, if I understand the why part, then the behaviour itself ceases to bother me in the same way. It exasperates me when I'm getting conflicting messages about what is really being asked of me or what the intent of the post is. I generally am a fairly laid back person, but I do find my tone escalating when I'm getting no answers that would help me to better do my part of the job. I've found that there are Fi, Ne and Si users on here from whom I'm willing to hear what they have to say. I can even handle it being blunt. I just don't like not knowing what is being asked of me or being treated snarkily if I haven't come up with their preconceived idea of how they wanted me to express myself.

    Starry, I also have to say thank you for understanding. I don't know if this has to do with enneagram stuff or what it is, but it's incredibly helpful for me to know that you see what the INFJs have been objecting to. I have a hard time honestly believing that just because someone uses Fi or Ne or Si that those little digs are something that is just a part of their honest communication and if objections are made to them, the INFJs are just insisting that people play in their sandbox or else they won't play at all. I found that an incredibly insulting simplification of what was going on. The addition of those little comments just negates my belief that there is any real interest in understanding or in even informing from a constructive standpoint. I'm more than open to the possibility that I'm missing something important and in gathering more information that would lead to better understanding, even if it involves conflict along the way. I'm not open to being belittled and then ordered to bare my soul.

  8. #388
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    This bothers me for this reason: In past posts INFP's have stated that INFJ's need to stop the *mind reading* stuff and take what they say at face value, but if I'm interpreting you correctly, then *mind reading* is exactly what will end up happening because, "You either figure it out for yourself, or you don't.", to quote you. Please explain to me what I'm missing.
    It's different problem spaces. Because each type is framing ideas differently, the INFJs "mind-read" in Ni terms, which doesn't map to the Fi-Si framework very well at all. Just because someone else chooses to do X, and the INFJ would only choose to do X if Y were true, does not imply that Y applies to the INFP.

    And yeah, you're not reading me wrong, it's a catch-22. The trick on the INFJ side is to "mind-read" using their understanding of INFP-ish assumptions, and not on their usually-applicable INFJ-ish model. Keep in mind that part of what is going on, just like in the INTJ/INTP discussion threads, is that the topics are particularly complex and refined, so it's much more important to be aware of differences in language than in normal human conversation.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #389
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Last edited by Tiltyred; 01-14-2013 at 03:10 PM.

  10. #390
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    I agree with @uumlau in that the problems that are arising in this thread stem from Ni vs Si. I think it's far too easy between many types to assume that the issue is judgement, when most judgement occurs because of how things are perceived. If two people are looking at the same situation from completely different perspectives, and then acting on those perspectives... it isn't too hard to follow that mishaps are going to occur.

    This is why I believe it's mostly Si/Ni issues: INFPs and INFJs intellectually inhabit different "problem spaces", and translating between them is difficult. If my experience with INTPs is any guide, it's more on YOU (INFP or INFJ) to figure out how to communicate across that barrier than it's on the other person. If you're an INFJ having issues with an INFP, try saying, "I'm trying to understand. Could you explain more to help me understand?" instead of "Why did you do that?" The former will resonate as cooperative with the INFP, while the latter will come across as accusatory. Moreover, be especially careful about offering up hypotheses about why the INFP does or feels anything: if the hypothesis isn't in the form of a question with lots of "maybes" and "perhaps" making it clear that it is a question, not an accusation, it will come across as an accusation. Being mocking or sarcastic is generally out of the question, with INFPs, unless you're on very good terms. If you're an INFP having issues with an INFJ, try stating your feelings in a more declarative, "if-then" kind of way, e.g., "When thus-and-such happens, it makes me feel bad, and I tend to react by doing X," instead of, "Isn't it obvious why I'm reacting the way I am?" Focus on specific cases: instead of discussing an overall principle, present an application of the principle. The tough part on the INFP side is shrugging off everything that sounds accusatory: if you get too upset, it becomes difficult to focus on the communication.
    If this is the discernment between the disconnect, then awesome. I finally understand why I have had beautiful unicorn laden meadow moments with some of the INFJs in my life, and then suddenly had those meadows turn into killing grounds running orange with the blood of glitter at the seemingly drop of a hat.

    Now I feel like I have found the part of the INF Rosetta Stone that says "if your INFJ asks you 'why did you do that?' it means 'please explain the why so I can understand'" versus 'YOURE A HORRIBLE PERSON WHO DOES HORRIBLE UNICORN KILLING THINGS" and all is well with the land.

    Or something.

    The End.

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