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  1. #371
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    On a side note: for anyone who has ever gotten frustrated with the supposed NFJ habit of having someone *not believe* you when express why you are feeling something, please take note of how many Fi’ers in this thread don’t seem to be willing to hear that this isn’t about the criticism.
    I've made the mistake of pondering this thread too close to bedtime, and now am stuck awake still thinking about it. And I'm making the additional error of turning the computer back on .... gah!

    Can you please explain what you mean? I have read this 6 times and am not sure exactly which direction to go here.

    And yes, if it's about hurt feelings what can I do to soothe the wound made by the pointy end of the stick?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #372
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Lightbulb attn: INFXs

    Stop being complex.

  3. #373
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Trust me, it's Ni. It is not Fi vs Fe.
    I suspect it's Si vs Ni, not Fi vs Fe. INTJs and INTPs have similar issues.
    But Fi is in there too. Or else you wouldn't be able to glimpse the INFP POV. Perhaps then, as you say Fi - Si vs Ni - Ti.

    Fi and Ti doms seem to forget that their personal judgment, right or wrong, is highly subjective, and likewise they tend to decline discussing the reasons why for the judgment (in a way that can be openly debated in "extroverted function" terms).
    Yet it's been expressed at least a dozen times already that INFP's know that we, and each person, is a highly subjective entity. It's like a given, it's our default. It's not forgetting that as much as perhaps forgetting our audience sees themselves as way more objective. Therefore our words look more objective? More decided?

    Where's the mystery in looking at OA's post? It's as clear as day she's had some negative experiences and they color the post with emotion and a lack of objectivity. It's also clear she needs to process that and restore some balance - who would want to go around for the rest of their lives thinking INFJ's are best avoided? It seems unbalanced and thus feels wrong so she's trying to get the clarity that hearing alternate perspectives bring.

    I don't see myself as being objective - hardly at all. I aim for it but it's a lot of work. That's the joy and curse of not having Fe or Te in your top two (even three) functions. It's more like, of COURSE what everyone says is subjective, what else would it be???

    Actually, to me, if someone says "I don't understand this", then I have a means of connection - bridge the gap of understanding. Where I see the ball getting dropped is that one side or the other assumes, "I do understand this," and therefore the other side is wrong.
    Well said, it's true that if my husband says "I don't understand" there's an opening, a way for me to continue discussing. It's when he says, "I don't agree" that I have to work harder to be understood.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #374
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    For INFJ's: is it that you need another INFP to bring balance back to the thread? Publicly chastise people of our own type that we see as causing issues? Or bringing pain or disharmony? Or do you desire public support?

    Do you need me to say that someone is just being meanie-mean and not being fair, that they're just a nasty poopie-head and you shouldn't worry about them? (Forgive the baby-talk, but it's the best way to express the sentiment - do you need commiseration, even if it feels like you shouldn't want it, or need some of that kind of babying?) I know other Te and Fe folks in my life who need this from time to time, no shame in that! Could it be that you need it too?

    Please do try to tell me what you're after, it will be a great help to me to ascertain the right angle of approach.

    I am now heading back to bed. Night all.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    INFJs feel remorse, as do INTJs. But the way to convince Ni-doms that remorse is a valid path is not via tertiary Si rules. Remember that Ni-doms have a weird take on reality, according to most folks. We see things in terms of cause and effect (not that other types don't see cause and effect, but cause-and-effect has a primacy in Ni-thinking). If we don't believe that there was any way that we could have caused (or possibly known we could be a cause) of something bad, Ni doms don't feel regret in such instances: events simply had to unfold that way, due to cause and effect, even if we had unknowingly played a role in an unfortunate result. This isn't a denial of responsibility so much as a way of looking at the world.
    wait... so if it's not Si, what about someone else's Ne? bare with me: your saying Ni gives you a difficult time seen your own actions as choices rather then simply "events to unfold". could it simply be the case of having to be made conscious of the alternatives? would that make anything different?
    edit: come to think of that i tried that earlier in the thread and it was somewhat disastrous...

    FYI - there is a major difference between the likely Te produced ego and the likely Fe produced ego that i think your neglecting. think about the things your parents and teachers and friends complimented you about, the realm of achievements in which you've grown to be proud of yourself in as a child. think about the desirable traits you are the most attached too.

    if you'd have to rank the words that are more important in your ego's vocabulary:
    "humble", "brilliant", "kind", "intelligent", "nice", "creative", "efficient", "good", "insightful", "helpful", "competent", "decent", "witty", "thoughtful", "resourceful", "delightful", "winner", "supportive", etc..

    do you think your ranking would be the same as someone who grow up primary engaged by Fe?

    admitting negligence & acknowledging our own choices in the events sequence are only two thirds, but then acknowledging we've caused something that's contrary to our self beliefs is the last. when it comes to acknowledging we've caused harm, in general or worst when its someone you care about, what the FJ is giving up - the element of their ego they are putting aside - is likely to have being a lot more meaningful to them then what the TJ is giving up. thus a lot harder.

    thus, as someone said here, i think it was @Z Buck McFate but i may be experiencing a momentary Si failure, "you don't know what your asking", and in some ways we don't - we know the action - but we don't know the price or the intensity.

  6. #376
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    Fe users are good at vocalizing their thoughts when things displease them, that's for sure.


    It's cool, I tested INFP once.

  7. #377
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I think Starry was dabbling in the Ti-ish tradition of pointing something out by presenting an exaggerated caricature, rather than stating it directly. Unfortunately this often doesn’t go over very well with Fi types, I think it’s taken too literally- but it tends to have the opposite affect on Ti types by clarifying a problem (bringing relief) AND giving a bonus playful Pillsbury Doughboy-like poke to the ribs.

    In presenting this exaggerated caricature, I do believe she has restored some balance to the INFJ universe and effectively reduced the amount of white noise. Mission accomplished, Starry. Them's some fine cross type communication skills.
    Oh, I saw the point of the hyperbole but it doesn't appeal to me. I see it as distortion and distraction, not as something bringing clarity and reducing "white noise". It sounds to me like a child reduced to calling names when an argument doesn't go their way. Not an effective tool at all in my eyes, and, at the risk of sounding humourless, not my brand of 'wit'.

    On a side note: for anyone who has ever gotten frustrated with the supposed NFJ habit of having someone *not believe* you when express why you are feeling something, please take note of how many Fi’ers in this thread don’t seem to be willing to hear that this isn’t about the criticism.
    I'm more than willing to hear any of your arguments. Just because I haven't comprehended the full meaning of your points doesn't mean I'm intentionally doing so. Please clarify what you mean by it not being about criticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    INFJs feel remorse, as do INTJs. But the way to convince Ni-doms that remorse is a valid path is not via tertiary Si rules. Remember that Ni-doms have a weird take on reality, according to most folks. We see things in terms of cause and effect (not that other types don't see cause and effect, but cause-and-effect has a primacy in Ni-thinking). If we don't believe that there was any way that we could have caused (or possibly known we could be a cause) of something bad, Ni doms don't feel regret in such instances: events simply had to unfold that way, due to cause and effect, even if we had unknowingly played a role in an unfortunate result. This isn't a denial of responsibility so much as a way of looking at the world.
    Interesting. This helps explain it. How do you define the "cause" in any given situation? Can it only be defined in objective terms or is a subjective interpretation also acceptable? For example, if I said, "The way you said _____ felt like a personal attack on me and that's why I'm upset", would that register?

    It does point out an area of learning for Ni-doms. Namely, we need to understand that lack of intention is insufficient to deny responsibility, that even though something is not (in our own eyes) our fault, it still may be our responsibility. That while we may not be a proximate cause, we must at least admit negligence. Ni-doms are particularly bad at admitting negligence. That is to say, admitting that we need to be more aware (inferior Se!!!!). We focus and try to do our best to keep track of everything, but we're human and we mess up. This applies to both INFJs and INTJs, alike.
    This also clears things up. I do see the distinction between admitting "fault" (implying an intentionally callous act) and "responsibility" for something negative (implying that there was no ill will, but nonetheless there is some culpability). It's curious to me that someone wouldn't recognise the difference. Is intention really so central to Ni that they value it over the result? In other words, if the resulting effect doesn't match the intention are they inclined to simply assume the result is wrong?

    Can you explain further about why Ni-doms are bad at admitting negligence? Does it come back to the need to maintain the belief in a perfect model? In other words, if they admit there is a single flaw in their perception they feel it may call into question the whole system.

    It's ironic, but I suspect I might have an advantage here as an INTJ. To me, emotions are those silly things that I need to express in order for other people who believe in emotions to get the damn point. It is immensely helpful to just admit fault/responsibility - even if it is definitely neither one's fault or responsibility - because it quickly soothes ruffled feathers and lets us get back to important matters. An ENTJ of my acquaintance once said, "Guilt is a useless emotion," and I've heard the same expressed by other xNTJs since then. But in the end it isn't about guilt. It's about being willing to help out and carry the load, and for many people, expressing that guilt/remorse is necessary in order to make clear that you're going to be there for them when they need it, that you'll go out of your way, even when it isn't your responsibility or your fault, to make things right.
    Yes, I very much dislike feeling a lack of resolution of the emotions involved. I personally don't need an apology; even a small sign of regret will do after an argument. Like you say, it isn't necessarily the need to see guilt. I see it as the need to put things on even par again; to signal the arm-wrestle for dominance (over whom is right or wrong) is over. I just need to feel that we've closed that chapter so we can move on from it. If someone refuses to give an inch and insists that they've done nothing wrong, it signals to me that the argument is ongoing and that I have to keep defending myself. I find that pretty stressful and insulting. It feels like that person is constantly claiming the logical/moral high ground - in effect, proclaiming their superiority and my consequent inferiority. It's not that I actually want to be superior, I just don't like feeling belittled.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

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  8. #378
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Last edited by Tiltyred; 01-14-2013 at 03:09 PM.

  9. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i think infps have a much stronger sense of core self. and they're more willing to take responsibility for this core self.
    fuck Fi, what about your Ti? do you have no urge to reach out for a core truth, for something more genuine then the sense of self, out into a larger world with all the things we can not see, such as those inside skulls other then our own? right now at the moment of you reading this, i am responsible for this arrangement of letters on your screens, i pressed buttons which caused them to appear in a certain way. i did not make the technology (and trust me - i would have liked too), i did not build the infrastructure, the circumstances where there to began with, but neither determined my choice, because there is an entity which awhile ago (from your perspective) has moved a mouse and pressed keys which resulted in the arrangement of letters you see before you, and i have control over that entity, that entity is me. i might have pressed wronggly and not noticed the typo, or maybe it all went according to plan, but within that larger world outside, the arrangement of letters is still my responsibility, i am the cause of it.
    certainly not all my interactions with these keys are intended - awhile ago i spilled coffee on the laptop, and trust that i had no intention to loose hours upon hours of access to my work while the laptop was being repaired - and there's certainly a reason for it, i am terribly clumsy, i have always being clumsy, years of 'practice' throughout my military service demanding intense situational and physical awareness and i am still freaking clumsy, the question of how i didn't blow myself up aside, it's pretty safe to say my clumsiness isn't something i am likely to fundamentally change. also, in my area of work (fittingly - java coding), i need to stay up and alert for hours while working, i have every reason to drink a lot of coffee.
    so there you have it, circumstances, unintended consequences, and very good reasons. yet the causality of the consequences is the entity which is me, which i have control over. it is thus my responsibility. just like the arrangement of letters right now on the screen.
    i see myself in the event of actions, and identify the entity which is me. i didn't think of placing the coffee cup further away from the laptop before getting up because i didn't account for those unintended consequences. i could have being more thoughtful about my physical arrangement, and i wasn't, thus it is my fault.

    i see myself in the events.
    i recognize my bad choice.
    i placed my belief in my general competence aside to acknowledge i was wrong.

    what is so different about that when the consequences is in the experience of others?
    why would you need Fi for that?

  10. #380
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I suspect it's Si vs Ni, not Fi vs Fe. INTJs and INTPs have similar issues.
    I tend to agree. I grow weary of so many things being pinned down on Fe/Fi. I also note that so many discussions that follow this path are common between INFJ and ENTP, but tend not to happen with INFJ and xSTP. So, I do think the NiSe and NeSi differences play a very substantial role in misunderstandings and communication fails (on both ends).

    Mostly I wanted to say I was thinking a few days ago that the INTJ/INTP-bickering threads are a great comparison and DO seem to be similar to this one. Whenever I see the INTP/INTJ 'discussions', from my pov the intp's seem to be skewering the intj's! (but I also assume to the other half of the populace it's viewed totally differently). But obviously the emotions don't take center stage as much in those threads.

    Enjoyed the rest of your post too.

    Tis all. I'm happily going to leave the thread again, lol.
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