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  1. #361
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorenx7 View Post
    What do you know of humility? Seriously, I have an ENFJ friend who knows a lot about humility, probably a lot more than I do. I know much less about ENFP behavior, though. Are ENFPs known for being humble and in a position to detect whether or not someone is humble? I do, however, see what looks like humility in OA.
    I have PhD in Humility Detection?

    Honestly, I don’t even know what you are asking. Are you insinuating that…not only I, as an individual, need be modest…but my MBTI must also be commonly understood to be humble as well before I am qualified to make an assessment in this regard?

    To answer your question – No. ENFPs are often described as being ‘self-effacing’…but I’ve never seen ‘humble’ attributed to the type <--which makes sense as ‘humble’ is often synonymous with unassuming, meek, etc. As for me personally, I can definitely present with some self-righteousness in attitude when I’m stressed or feeling rejected/defeated/undervalued… and then other times I feel very free from even the slightest sense of bitterness or frustration that others are not the people I need them to be… and yes, feel very humbled by Life and the good people I encounter…

    You do know though that ENFPs & INFPs share the exact same functions right? See I’m not really thinking much about how qualified I am to do this or that (and I actually think you may have misunderstood what that ‘excessively humble’ bit was referring to in the first place). I see what I see because we’re playing with the same deck of cards and I understand the game. I know what happens to Fi when it is on a mission to right a wrong. I know what happens when it goes ‘sour’. I know how it can become…when it is anticipating resistance…when it is experiencing resistance…it can become smug and condescending. I don’t know this because I'm adept at identifying humility in my environment…I know this because this is part of who I am.

    I do not doubt what you see in OA. What I see, however, is OA flipping back and forth like I described in my own experience above…between self-righteousness and openness. I don’t need you to see it. I don’t necessarily need other Fi users to agree…and it is easily dismissed as a flat/blunt/so-last/excessively humble manner because it isn’t threatening to us really. But I want my INFJ friends to know that what they are picking-up on exists in reality.

  2. #362
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Lots to think about in your post; thanks for sharing as always. A few things that jump out:

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    with Fi, it's i get to be myself no matter the consequences for others.
    I would say, "With Fi, I will do the right thing no matter the consequences to myself or to the group."

    the way southern kross reads oa is so interesting to me. it makes me think within the infp perspective maybe there is something valid to what oa is trying to do.
    Since no INFP has excoriated OA's "method", that's apparent, no? I put "method" in quotation marks because it's not like a consciously deployed technique or something to us. We feel that emotions hold the key to discerning truth, so the more baldly we say something, the more raw that it is, the more honest it is, and it's intended to give permission somehow to you to share your truth too. You'll note that we all "get" that about each other, so yes, it is perfectly valid to us. But easy, no. We feel we risk a great deal to present that level of honesty out loud.

    when from other perspectives (tho certainly not all), when from what i deem a broader view of the place of Fi within the scheme of things, it seems hypocritical and contradictory and very baiting (even if there is a way of empathizing with what she's trying to do, when she's also trying to argue that others are unjust for not recognizing the effects on herself and others when she does not seem to find that balance for her actions within this thread).
    But how can you place Fi within a larger context when it seems from where I sit that it's perfectly invisible to most INFJ's? To me, when Fe says, "I don't understand this", it's tantamount to saying it's not real, not correct. After all, that's what Te does within that realm. If my husband can't understand why I'm upset for example, he can't sympathize. Fe feels no different to me in this regard. I don't need to agree with someone to empathize? I don't need to really understand the why? Somehow, this is the province of Fi.

    moreover, the perhaps all-encompassing Pe that we are accused of lacking often doesn't seem to be working extremely well at getting where we are coming from either. it's not observing us very well. and so it's speed at writing explanations doesn't really matter if it doesn't listen to us. because if it is observing us well, and it's just choosing an approach that seems like it's made to fuck with us, what do we do about that?
    For me personally, it's more about trying things here on the forum that I wouldn't risk so much IRL. It's not about not observing you well, it's about trying to have you align with me than me with you to accomplish my goal. And I can't do this stuff fast and do it well ... I need a lot of time to process. Speaking for myself, I don't do anything on the forum to "fuck" with anyone. I am just sincerely sitting here trying to put feelings into words, and it can be frustrating to have intent lain over them, intent that I don't even have.

    but that's why if oa had just told a specific story and allowed us to posit hypothetical explanations loosely based on type, it would have been much less egregious than making a "just the facts" objective impersonal claim that was loaded with presupposition and pejorative judgment about a general category rather than individuals she had concretely experienced (a community rather than an individual or even a specific behavior, when an experience or set of experiences with an individual from a particular perspective is STILL not enough to define the totality of that person). or even, "i've had some issues with these behaviors, do they relate to you as infjs? could you see yourself running into problems with them?" so much different than how she approached it.
    Have you seen what's happened in the past when I personally have shared my stories?

    Generally, the INFJ's point out what I did wrong or they infer stuff that wasn't even divulged in my story to tell me what I should have done to make it right. It's practically assumed I was in error right off the hop. Then I have to convince the thread that nope, I wasn't an emo dolt, I wasn't insensitive, I was politically correct, I did try other approaches yadda yadda yadda.

    And I'm an so-dom who is wired to really care about this stuff. So, respectfully, this is not going to be a useful approach for INFP's imho.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I have PhD in Humility Detection?

    Honestly, I don’t even know what you are asking. Are you insinuating that…not only I, as an individual, need be modest…but my MBTI must also be commonly understood to be humble as well before I am qualified to make an assessment in this regard?

    To answer your question – No. ENFPs are often described as being ‘self-effacing’…but I’ve never seen ‘humble’ attributed to the type <--which makes sense as ‘humble’ is often synonymous with unassuming, meek, etc. As for me personally, I can definitely present with some self-righteousness in attitude when I’m stressed or feeling rejected/defeated/undervalued… and then other times I feel very free from even the slightest sense of bitterness or frustration that others are not the people I need them to be… and yes, feel very humbled by Life and the good people I encounter…

    You do know though that ENFPs & INFPs share the exact same functions right? See I’m not really thinking much about how qualified I am to do this or that (and I actually think you may have misunderstood what that ‘excessively humble’ bit was referring to in the first place). I see what I see because we’re playing with the same deck of cards and I understand the game. I know what happens to Fi when it is on a mission to right a wrong. I know what happens when it goes ‘sour’. I know how it can become…when it is anticipating resistance…when it is experiencing resistance…it can become smug and condescending. I don’t know this because I'm adept at identifying humility in my environment…I know this because this is part of who I am.

    I do not doubt what you see in OA. What I see, however, is OA flipping back and forth like I described in my own experience above…between self-righteousness and openness. I don’t need you to see it. I don’t necessarily need other Fi users to agree…and it is easily dismissed as a flat/blunt/so-last/excessively humble manner because it isn’t threatening to us really. But I want my INFJ friends to know that what they are picking-up on exists in reality.
    I'm not too familiar with typology. I've only been looking at it for less than two months. Therefore, I'm sure there may be things I say which may not even completely make sense. Nevertheless, I do identify with INFP characteristics. I'm certainly aware that ENFPs and INFPs share the same functions. It's just that I've never been around an ENFP in real life, to my knowledge. As I indicated, I have been around an ENFJ extensively (for the past ten years to be exact.) My ENFJ friend definitely does understand humility I think to a greater degree than I do. I was curious if ENFPs have any similarity to ENFJs in that regard. I realize, of course, that I'm only referring to one person, one ENFJ, and maybe her behavior isn't even characteristic of ENFJs in general.

    Of course, the main topic is INFJs. In that case, I've been around several INFJs through the years. I've spent a great deal of time around them, in fact. This is in spite of the fact that they comprise only 1% of the population and are supposed to be the rarest type. When I saw OA's list, I was actually kind of stunned that it summed up what I had been living in my real life for many years. That is my perspective.

  4. #364
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    ^^I do not believe the above is actually occurring do you??

    I mean, I believe OA is interested in the INFJ response to her list (she's asked for it enough times). But an invitation to some sort of collaborative effort? That's laughable. I've only ever seen 'Any INFJs want to cop to this?' Come on now. Here is OA's message in a nutshell:

    1.) INFJs are not Gods they actually kinda suck - here's why
    2.) INFPs are superior
    3.) I'm special

    I'm not saying the list doesn't have what highlander referred to as 'grains of truth'. But we are never going to be able to discuss it if we keep pretending OA is one of the 'excessively humble'. I'm just trying to put an end to the 'white noise' here - that's all.
    Well, I think I've been here long enough and shared enough conversations with OA to know she's not a nasty raving bitch, if that's what you mean.

    I don't deny what she said was, as PB put it, abrasive and I don't doubt that some INFJs would be a little upset by it. It is always hard to hear criticism, especially if you don't think it applies to you (which, again, I cannot say whether it does in general) so I don't blame them for being defensive. But the OP did not ask for kind words and fluffy bunnies, it actually asked for negative opinions, and to be fair that is what she gave. I realise that she (and apparently Mane as well) has had some real run ins with INFJs in the past and that colours her perspective as more negative in general and that is why she can sound a little rant-y. I also know that she is not "typist" and would actively resist giving in to the belief that her own negative experiences of INFJs reflect the type as a whole. I have not seen any prejudice against the INFJs on TC from her either - in fact she gets along well with them. In other words, she doesn't think all that well of INFJs IRL but doesn't want to feel like that and wants her bias to be balanced out.

    You may read her behaviour differently but I'm coming at it as an INFP, and, in particular, one that is very similar to OA; so I interpret her list as if I had been the one to say it. I know people often see hidden motives in INFPs and you confirm this by reading her as saying "INFPs are superior" and that she's "special" - which, frankly, is bullshit. I also know that when something pisses me off I sometimes speak more forcefully and unequivocally than I mean to, or perhaps should. This sometimes sounds like I'm saying, "this is what everyone should believe" rather than, "this is my (albeit angry) personal experience".

    I did not mean collaborative effort, per se - INFPs don't approach things in such terms. As PB described earlier, INFPs build up a picture of the world through a collection of individual experiences. Their own experience is only one part of the picture. If I had only negative encounters with Germans and everyone else raved about how great they are, I would doubt my own experiences and consider them to be possible outliers.
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  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Well, I think I've been here long enough and shared enough conversations with OA to know she's not a nasty raving bitch, if that's what you mean.

    I don't deny what she said was, as PB put it, abrasive and I don't doubt that some INFJs would be a little upset by it. It is always hard to hear criticism, especially if you don't think it applies to you (which, again, I cannot say whether it does in general) so I don't blame them for being defensive. But the OP did not ask for kind words and fluffy bunnies, it actually asked for negative opinions, and to be fair that is what she gave. I realise that she (and apparently Mane as well) has had some real run ins with INFJs in the past and that colours her perspective as more negative in general and that is why she can sound a little rant-y. I also know that she is not "typist" and would actively resist giving in to the belief that her own negative experiences of INFJs reflect the type as a whole. I have not seen any prejudice against the INFJs on TC from her either - in fact she gets along well with them. In other words, she doesn't think all that well of INFJs IRL but doesn't want to feel like that and wants her bias to be balanced out.

    You may read her behaviour differently but I'm coming at it as an INFP, and, in particular, one that is very similar to OA; so I interpret her list as if I had been the one to say it. I know people often see hidden motives in INFPs and you confirm this by reading her as saying "INFPs are superior" and that she's "special" - which, frankly, is bullshit. I also know that when something pisses me off I sometimes speak more forcefully and unequivocally than I mean to, or perhaps should. This sometimes sounds like I'm saying, "this is what everyone should believe" rather than, "this is my (albiet angry) personal experience".

    I did not mean collaborative effort, per se - INFPs don't approach things in such terms. As PB described earlier, INFPs build up a picture of the world through a collection of individual experiences. Their own experience is only one part of the picture. If I had only negative encounters with Germans and everyone else raved about how great they are, I would doubt my own experiences and consider them to be possible outliers.
    Thanks for this clarifying post. You, OrangeAppled, PeaceBaby, Standuble and others have said quite a few things which have been very helpful to me. I feel I've been enlightened and it's something which happened rather rapidly.

  6. #366
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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  7. #367
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i think infps have a much stronger sense of core self. and they're more willing to take responsibility for this core self. sometimes. other times, they love being wrong. their way of acting out is to stay with a core self that even they deem illogical, contradictory, and wrong. sometimes they want to flaunt it, feeling like everyone is against them (i have observed this with 4w5 in particular/ 9w1s use denial more). an infp 4w5 friend of mine does this oscillation sometimes. he shifts between being the most accepting person i know and the least accepting. in knowingly, self-consciously absurd ways.
    You may be right here: Te rigidity for the sake of it. I can't say for sure though. If it is true for me, it's something I'm not terribly conscious of.

    the way southern kross reads oa is so interesting to me. it makes me think within the infp perspective maybe there is something valid to what oa is trying to do. when from other perspectives (tho certainly not all), when from what i deem a broader view of the place of Fi within the scheme of things, it seems hypocritical and contradictory and very baiting (even if there is a way of empathizing with what she's trying to do, when she's also trying to argue that others are unjust for not recognizing the effects on herself and others when she does not seem to find that balance for her actions within this thread). being baiting, however, is very difficult to avoid for me personally, so i can sympathize to some degree. along with having a sometimes narrow view and attaching to a story that has not grasped the story for others (the so perspective) very clearly.
    The difficulty of her complaints is that she is effectively saying INFJs fail to take responsibility for their failings and instead blame them on others. The natural response of the INFJs (as is with anyone being accused of something they don't think is just) is to deny that they do that and suggest she's got it wrong - which to her, is in effect, further confirmation of the very thing she's complaining about. So even if none of the INFJs here ever genuinely do that, their denial will still sound like confirmation - and also that yet again she is being blamed by INFJs for something that's actually their fault. In this sense, this is destined to end badly.

    Nonetheless, I don't think this is what she wanted to happen (ie. for some sort of smug, self-satisfaction at feeling proven right), because as I said in an earlier post, INFPs aren't satisfied by that sort of thing - they find it extremely frustrating to not have proper acknowledgement (well, I do anyway). That's why I think she wanted her view to be either "disproved" or for perhaps one or two INFJs here to say, "OK, yeah. I do do that on occasion I suppose. My reason for doing it is _______ ". So either way she would get more balance; either from hearing contradictory views or from hearing the reasoning behind why INFJs might do such things (thereby gaining understanding of it).

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    what are the rules of the Fi playground? do you agree that oa's description was lacking neutrality and adding negative value judgments while purporting to be "just the facts?" is that required for the Fi playground to be authentic? is it because that's what is already there and it's simply too difficult to sound out the feeling without these presuppositions? is there a timing to this process that we are not respecting? can we find a common language to critique not the experience of the other but the expression of it, not as a way to invalidate it but to simply TEST it, to allow ourselves to see how it stands up? does Fi just not have the generalizable sensitivity that Fe has, just like Fe might miss out on the particular aspects of another person's story, where they're coming from, that makes it unfair to focus on the generalizability issues of their articulation when their experience, empathetically speaking, makes sense and would be presumptuous to judge when it has its own conditions and factors that we haven't even begun to explore when we, even if just passively, control how things are said/enacted?
    I see. The bolded question is quite telling. The point for INFPs in such circumstances is avoid neutrality and embrace the bias. She is relating personal experiences and she frames them as pure subjective perception. There is no point in being neutral and balanced because each of these are formed by intensely individual experiences - to attempt too much in the way of neutrality might feel disingenuous for her. She is just looking through a limited scope and outlining the patterns she sees. She is responding to a personal question, "INFPs, what do INFJs do that drives you nuts?" - which to her* specifically asks for her to relate her subjective experiences and implies that a degree of bias or distortion is expected. If a different question was asked, such as, "what are INFJs like?" or even, "what is wrong about INFJs?", she would no doubt add more balance and disclaimers to such criticisms, because it implies more general claims and requires more neutrality. In fact she did that exact thing in the quoted post from the thread she linked to. The thread is titled, "common INFJ issues" and she provided the following disclaimers:

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled
    These are problems I have experienced in INFJs I know in person. I'm not saying this is what all INFJs are like or that these points even sum up these individuals (who DO have good qualities), but I see these as "common issues" in INFJs.

    Anyone want to cop to some of these (even if to lesser degree), explain how you get over these negative tendencies, etc?

    I've included some points from a Ni description which seem to explain the "root" of some of these issues.
    Anyway, I don't know how much more neutrality you can expect from a single person in a thread actively inviting criticism. True, she was rather blunt about it but we INFPs are never very good at finding a middle ground when it comes to expressing ourselves: either it's all about harmonising or it's blunt. I could see how that seems insensitive but sometimes it's just best to assume it's because we aren't the best communicators, especially when it comes to offering criticism.

    *God, I really should stop speculating about your intentions, sorry @OrangeAppled - I just mean to use you as an example.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  8. #368
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    "INFPs, what do INFJs do that drives you nuts?"

    I posted that just to reiterate that this is asking for INFPs opinion on what INFJs do that drives them nuts. So it's obviously not going to sound nice and may not even be accurate. Oh opinions. To answer the OP: I guess I find the martyrdom thing annoying. The I-can't-do-no-wrong attitude too. You can see it in some (emphasis on some) of the post here. When there is an acknowledgement of it, it is quickly negated with a victimized attitude. *pew-pew-pew* I think I can see bullets ricochet with so much deflecting.... (teasing)

  9. #369
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    [Haven't caught up, but posting some thoughts.]

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    To answer the question, no, she's not "excessively humble" in this thread. She can sound nasty at times. I don't see that "nastiness" directed towards any individuals though. So, I see her saying #1 in thread, yes. But #2 and #3, no.
    I think Starry was dabbling in the Ti-ish tradition of pointing something out by presenting an exaggerated caricature, rather than stating it directly. Unfortunately this often doesn’t go over very well with Fi types, I think it’s taken too literally- but it tends to have the opposite affect on Ti types by clarifying a problem (bringing relief) AND giving a bonus playful Pillsbury Doughboy-like poke to the ribs.

    In presenting this exaggerated caricature, I do believe she has restored some balance to the INFJ universe and effectively reduced the amount of white noise. Mission accomplished, @Starry. Them's some fine cross type communication skills.


    ***

    On a side note: for anyone who has ever gotten frustrated with the supposed NFJ habit of having someone *not believe* you when express why you are feeling something, please take note of how many Fi’ers in this thread don’t seem to be willing to hear that this isn’t about the criticism.
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    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Um, what a thread ... very interesting discussion here.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    @<a href="http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/member.php?u=15291" target="_blank">Mane</a> - Thanks for your contribution. I think you really pinpointed the major theme in all of my complaints concerning INFJs - the idea of a lack of remorse. I worded it as not taking responsibility or blame, but "lack of remorse" is much better. I think too, you articulated the point of what I was doing clearly; certainly not trying to make INFJs looks bad or demand some explanation/apology from them for someone else's behavior.

    I honestly want(ed) to be proven wrong in a sense. To hear an INFJ relate an experience where they hurt someone or committed a wrong, fully saw their own hand in it, felt deep remorse & regret, and then made restitution and/or significant changes, would be wonderful. But I don't think it's going to happen. Most stories here will make them look good; I fully expected that, as I noted there tends to be a "victim" spin, being "guilty" of being too nice & justifying everything "not nice" because of it.

    The frustation comes when things unfolded just as I suspected.... because I really want(ed) to believe that INFJs aren't like the many I've encountered. Being told I'm wrong & that they just don't relate to my list or flaws in Ni descriptions doesn't say much to me. I just continue to see people who feel they have nothing to be remorseful over; and I find that impossible in any human, as everyone has been dead wrong in an awful way at some point.

    And I certainly distinguish such "remorse" from being "sorry", as I go into at the bottom...

    So @<a href="http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/member.php?u=7842" target="_blank">Z Buck McFate</a> I very much anticipated this kind of response or a "mess"; as I said before, I only hoped it would go differently because I wanted to see humility & remorse in INFJs. I'm sure some will read this thread & find INFJs to be polite and contained in their demeanor & come away with the impression that they are "victims" and I am the villain. But a pretty package of politeness doesn't necessarily equal someone who has & expresses the kind of deep remorse Mane speaks of. I understand not wanting to share such experiences, but at this point, I can't take someone's word for it when I have too much other data which says otherwise. I really wanted something to throw a wrench into the pattern that has emerged for me; not to hear an admittance of being a nasty person (which certainly would only confirm the patten), but to witness an INFJ person able to see & regret when they've done bad things & there is no one else to blame (like all people will do, however healthy or nice otherwise).
    INFJs feel remorse, as do INTJs. But the way to convince Ni-doms that remorse is a valid path is not via tertiary Si rules. Remember that Ni-doms have a weird take on reality, according to most folks. We see things in terms of cause and effect (not that other types don't see cause and effect, but cause-and-effect has a primacy in Ni-thinking). If we don't believe that there was any way that we could have caused (or possibly known we could be a cause) of something bad, Ni doms don't feel regret in such instances: events simply had to unfold that way, due to cause and effect, even if we had unknowingly played a role in an unfortunate result. This isn't a denial of responsibility so much as a way of looking at the world.

    It does point out an area of learning for Ni-doms. Namely, we need to understand that lack of intention is insufficient to deny responsibility, that even though something is not (in our own eyes) our fault, it still may be our responsibility. That while we may not be a proximate cause, we must at least admit negligence. Ni-doms are particularly bad at admitting negligence. That is to say, admitting that we need to be more aware (inferior Se!!!!). We focus and try to do our best to keep track of everything, but we're human and we mess up. This applies to both INFJs and INTJs, alike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    This makes a lot of sense, and sorts out a lot of confusing nuances.

    I dislike bringing ‘type’ too heavily into these things because often it seems to me like people are contorting their experience to fit in the box rather than actually finding a bona fide ‘type’ thing going on- but I really do think a lot is being lost in translation here. And I think this helps pinpoint it. With the usual ‘I can’t speak for all INFJs’ disclaimer, I think I can say that we typically find talking about remorse to be an empty thing. It certainly helps to say “I’m sorry”- but more than anything else, my opinion of whether someone else feels remorse is formed by other indications. Like the old saying goes ‘sorry is easy to say’, I don’t trust words as much as I trust other indications and I personally find drawn out explanations of remorse can look and feel contrived (to me). Someone saying “I’m sorry I ate your last popsicle without asking” doesn’t mean anywhere near as much to me as that person not doing it in the future- or even better, if they learned to never ‘use up the last of anything without asking first’…..the deeper the ‘roots’ of that lesson spread, the more I believe they actually ‘got’ it. I’ve used a ridiculously innocuous example, but the underlying principle applies. I show it in other ways because I watch for it in other ways, and I just don’t work those details out aloud. I absolutely feel remorse though. I don’t like telling stories about it because that just feels empty. The only way to know I’m telling the truth is to know me and to have experienced it in action. I suspect this is relatively common for ‘us’ (INFJs), and maybe we take for granted that others go by the same indications (when that isn’t the case).

    I apologize if I’ve been harsh, my language gets harsh when I feel like my back is somehow against the wall and I don’t clearly understand why- my single only priority becomes figuring out what the problem is, and I can lose sight of my tone. It can become a frantic priority, I become singularly focused on figuring out what is going on. I can understand the “Why does it matter if someone has this opinion? If it isn’t true, then why get wound up?” criticism- but the thing is, I strongly suspect we use the judgment of others to navigate our external environment more than others do- I think that is what Fe is, it helps us define Se as a sort of reality check (because our direct link to Se is so weak). [eta: It's not that we mistake outside judgment for our own- we just use it more than NFPs, I believe.] When something comes up that doesn’t make sense (and especially if it keeps coming up), it’s troubling, and it becomes more and more troubling each time it comes up.

    I do suspect it’s going to take a third person account, though, because I *suspect* it just isn’t INFJ style to give emotive accounts of something like that. It makes me feel kinda slimy and contrived just thinking about it.
    It's ironic, but I suspect I might have an advantage here as an INTJ. To me, emotions are those silly things that I need to express in order for other people who believe in emotions to get the damn point. It is immensely helpful to just admit fault/responsibility - even if it is definitely neither one's fault or responsibility - because it quickly soothes ruffled feathers and lets us get back to important matters. An ENTJ of my acquaintance once said, "Guilt is a useless emotion," and I've heard the same expressed by other xNTJs since then. But in the end it isn't about guilt. It's about being willing to help out and carry the load, and for many people, expressing that guilt/remorse is necessary in order to make clear that you're going to be there for them when they need it, that you'll go out of your way, even when it isn't your responsibility or your fault, to make things right.


    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    FWIW, I think OA was on to something when she pointed to Ni as being some of the issue for her. I think that causes more issues that I've given it credit for in the past.
    I've an ENFP gf. (You know who.) I've an ESFJ ex-wife. Trust me, it's Ni. It is not Fi vs Fe.

    Oh yeah - I also wanted to say that what Tiltyred said really resonated with me. She was talking about the impending death of her mother and working through all of the feelings, foreseeing what life will be like etc etc ahead of time and that by doing so, she will be calm when the very worst happens.

    I think this causes a lot of trouble for Ni users at times. Not only are you going through something big alone, but people think you are crazy for feeling something that isn't even happening, yet is very real.

    Maybe the last two paragraphs are a bit of a rabbit trail, but I feel like there's something in that thought that borders on the something related to the disconnect we have just experienced. I'm wondering if Ni's preventative/future focus means that we seem overly guarded and closed until we have kind of pre-experienced them (even if only in our minds) and that is a little crazy feeling and frustrating to Ne?
    There is much truth to this. Ni's theme song should be "Anticipation":


    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    To bring this back on topic, this whole thing is so complicated because it requires taking subjective interpretations that can never really be proven as accurate. We have a problem of intention vs. interpretation too, because both are important.

    I have known people that say things I find offensive things and then when I object, they deny they were being so. And this is the sort of thing I imagine @<a href="http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/member.php?u=6561" target="_blank">OrangeAppled</a> and @<a href="http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/member.php?u=15291" target="_blank">Mane</a> were getting at. There are some people that will deny any wrongdoing for a whole list of reasons, including accusing the other person of being the source of the problem by failing to understand. They will endlessly resist and refuse to accept any degree of blame. It's entirely possible that that person did mean well, but they must also accept the validity of the response to their mode of expression. I've also been that person saying things others misinterpret and know how distressing it can be. You want to explain how they've got it wrong but there's a point where the content and the objective become irrelevant and the effect takes precedence. I have had this problem with Ni-users in the past (again I don't know enough INFJs to speak about them), where they refuse to admit a problem exists, let alone express regret over contributing it. They continually argue that it's misinterpretation. To them it seems, admitting blame (in hurting the other person) is tantamount to admitting to having negative intentions in the first place. The added problem is when the Ni-user persists in explaining him/herself but the other person hears only justification and takes offence at the continued lack of remorse. What the Ni user doesn't realise is the other person doesn't care about whether it was a miscommunication or not, because the offence exists regardless. This is where I think "remorse" might not entirely get at the point. It is a failure to recognise wrongdoing altogether and this is what is most frustrating. Perhaps this particularly aggravates a INFP because it offends their very sense of justice and truth. It would be easier to come to terms with someone does wrong and knows it, yet doesn't care, than someone who continually denies wrongdoing and insists people misunderstand them. I certainly find such people extremely aggravating and in turn become more insistent that they see they're wrong. I just can't let the issue go until I feel some degree of validation of my 'truth'. Of course this then escalates out of control until we're both incredibly enraged and bitterly dissatisfied.

    I wouldn't go so far as to say Ni-users never admit guilt, or even that most fail to, but some can be so unbearably stubborn in this regard.
    I think it isn't about "admitting guilt" so much as the understanding of cause-and-effect is different, as I mention earlier in this post. It isn't stubbornness so much as "your worldview and my worldview don't jibe" issue. If it were easier to translate over the Si<=>Ni divide, I dare say it wouldn't appear to be so stubborn.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    well, it seems like we're negotiating the pragmatics but also the sense of justice at the same time. we're calling behaviors the "Fi playground" and it's difficult to see why you see this as the Fi way rather than as a negative behavior. this is the crux, right? going back and forth between the cases made against infj or against infp? that we both think the other side has behaved unjustly, and we're deciding whether we can find that acceptable as a "typological difference" or whether we can actually build a consensus that allows us to not only validate the other's perspective but also compromise, to find conditions that we both can find mutually acceptable in a way that feels balanced to both parties.
    I suspect it's Si vs Ni, not Fi vs Fe. INTJs and INTPs have similar issues.

    i wonder if adding intjs and perhaps a few more enfps
    And start another INTJ/ENFP mutual admiration thread?

    would help provide more context to see how the functional and egoic differentiation really overlap. perhaps we just have such strict notions of rights and responsibilities that we miss how we relate to each other in the big picture. we get caught up in a way of registering value rather than in recognizing what we can contribute to value questions that are beyond what we think they are. or perhaps it's the balancing between the big picture and the immediate details that is exactly the problem.
    I do believe INFJs and INFPs have very different means of establishing value. The problem isn't having different values so much as it can be difficult to communicate the basis of the values. INFJ values have an Ni-Ti basis, while INFP values have an Fi-Si basis. (I exclude the extroverted functions in part because the extroverted functions are more inherently "cooperative" while the introverted functions are more associated with traits that other types - and even the same type - regard as "stubborn.")

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I would say, "With Fi, I will do the right thing no matter the consequences to myself or to the group."
    This makes sense to me, but when I look at the INTP as an analogue of the INFP, I can see state's perspective, too. Fi and Ti doms seem to forget that their personal judgment, right or wrong, is highly subjective, and likewise they tend to decline discussing the reasons why for the judgment (in a way that can be openly debated in "extroverted function" terms).

    But how can you place Fi within a larger context when it seems from where I sit that it's perfectly invisible to most INFJ's? To me, when Fe says, "I don't understand this", it's tantamount to saying it's not real, not correct. After all, that's what Te does within that realm. If my husband can't understand why I'm upset for example, he can't sympathize. Fe feels no different to me in this regard. I don't need to agree with someone to empathize? I don't need to really understand the why? Somehow, this is the province of Fi.
    Actually, to me, if someone says "I don't understand this", then I have a means of connection - bridge the gap of understanding. Where I see the ball getting dropped is that one side or the other assumes, "I do understand this," and therefore the other side is wrong.

    Have you seen what's happened in the past when I personally have shared my stories?

    Generally, the INFJ's point out what I did wrong or they infer stuff that wasn't even divulged in my story to tell me what I should have done to make it right. It's practically assumed I was in error right off the hop. Then I have to convince the thread that nope, I wasn't an emo dolt, I wasn't insensitive, I was politically correct, I did try other approaches yadda yadda yadda.

    And I'm an so-dom who is wired to really care about this stuff. So, respectfully, this is not going to be a useful approach for INFP's imho.
    Yeah, that's the usual progression of the Epic Rap battles of Fe vs Fi.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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