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  1. #331
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    bleh, I'm tired, so I'm done. Just wanted to say that rather than completely not respond.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  2. #332
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    So much fun occasionally to be wound up by an ENTP.

  3. #333
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I didn't think it needed to be said (plus I think you were originally addressing just Z Buck when inquiring?), but I think there's a difference. I outlined in earlier posts what my thoughts were on the list, as well as tilty's post.
    Yes, and thanks.

    So given their desire to be 'proven wrong', it wasn't really impersonal/theoretical, imo, because they had specific things they were seeking, and specific 'stories' they wanted to hear. So it didn't seem to be about understanding us, really, it was about them wanting to change their perspective on infj's.
    I guess I see that as positive, that they want to change / update / flesh out perspective? Ah well, I can see your points here too, perhaps fleshing out the intent / trying to outline a purpose ahead of time would have gone a long way to INFJ's being patient with any approach?

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    ...maybe not everything is so far accounted for, but it seems to me the total net gain has being higher then then the total net loss, what am i missing?
    You've summarized it pretty well. I can't deny you were strategic, and in a weird way, I admire it even. I calculate the human cost higher than you do I suppose. Plus, I hope the people who've been hurt don't stay away from the forum forever ... hope that omelette is tasty for you.

    I think I'm beginning to understand why ENTP's drive INFJ's nuts ...

    That's a Bad ENTP @Mane. Go over to your corner!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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  4. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    That's a Bad ENTP @Mane. Go over to your corner!
    that reminds me, am i the only one who noted the extreme relevance and contribution @phobik had to this discussion in every single contentless post?

    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

  5. #335
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    that reminds me, am i the only one who noted the extreme relevance and contribution @phobik had to this discussion in every single contentless post?
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  6. #336
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I think there's an obvious difference too. But if INFJ's don't see it that way, I don't know how to reconcile that.
    There are obvious differences. It seems to me there are similarities too, which if looked at might reveal something to make our position directly understandable. I didn't see it as black and white/ 'obviously' entirely different or entirely the same. I think reducing it to 'ad hominem' vs. a list of impersonal theory (even though I've already explained more times than I can count it stopped being 'impersonal' with repeated insinuation it applies directly to the INFJs here- and the 'unwillingness to admit it' was denial*) makes it look black and white and discounts the opportunity to gain understanding from the parallel it presents.

    But honestly this whole thread seems more exhausting than is worthwhile, so nevermind.

    eta: I realize what I said here applies just as much to what PB was originally trying to get across (with the ‘family album’ analogy- ‘to be sure there are differences, but for the sake of argument *can you see* the similarities?’). As I see it, the urge to differentiate Tilty’s response as “ad hominem” and therefore *different* is very much like the urge I initially had to differentiate OA’s list as ‘mentally ill’; I was going to try to make the point "yeah, similarities.....but see how it also feels important to make that distinction?" but I ran out of steam.


    *If anyone goes back to look- the very first post (fid) after OA's started with an attempt to clarify if OA's post was supposed to apply to the INFJs here. And the second one as well (SilkRoad). If OA had addressed that, and stated some kind of at least temporary reprieve of the "if an INFJ doesn't go along with this, it's because they're all so bad at denial" insinuations.....it might have gone a different direction, but she didn't. Declaring 'impersonal theory' isn't what makes something impersonal theory....keeping it impersonal and removing personal agendas is what makes it impersonal.


    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Now, I daresay, this is exactly what @OrangeAppled was looking for in response from INFJ's. Say yes, say no, point / counter-point. Not saying that uumlau is right or wrong either, just what his experience was, and I'm just including this for illustrative purposes. Maybe that's it though, it really is a third party thing. But I'd rather get the story first-hand! I would want to hear it from INFJ's!

    I like the way uumlau described being NiJe and dealing with someone spewing Ji details, here in the first INFJ/P jamboree. It really does very much come across as “Emo emo emo, emo emo. Emo? Emo emo.” It makes no sense. And I can’t shake the feeling this ‘denial’ bullshit is because we didn’t give the “Emo emo emo” response that would fill in the blanks for her. As I already said, I personally didn’t begin to understand what she was looking for in posting her list. It made no sense. It isn’t about unwillingness (or 'denial' or being excessively and irresponsibly avoidant- which, as I have already explained, is when this started getting offensive).
    Last edited by Z Buck McFate; 01-10-2013 at 06:13 AM.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  7. #337
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    ^Great post, but it needs more cowbell. I mean emo.

  8. #338
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    What I have to say about this thread is I think OrangeAppled and Standuble are freaking brilliant. Also, PeaceBaby really needs to be Secretary of State rather than John Kerry. (Not that there is anything wrong with Kerry.) She's just better.

  9. #339
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    This thread has been rather perplexing to me. Some of my favorite members on this forum are INFJs. I like them and I really enjoy reading their posts. My biggest reaction to this thread has been an ongoing confusion as to why the INFJs reacted so strongly to the feedback from a few posters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I have learned a lot following this thread. So all this effort by all the parties involved wasn't for naught.

    Every time I think I have a clear handle on Fe/Ti versus Fi/Te differences, I'm humbled by my obvious lack of understanding. It still blows my mind how differently Fe/Ti users think compared to me. This thread has only re-illustrated how much I still have to learn here.
    I feel quite the same way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    I think the problem here at its core is that Se-inf's are just delusional and paranoid. Your own experiential truth is derived from lack of observation and from patterns which are removed from reality due to their subjective nature and uninterested in confirming whether they should continue to exist.

    All perception is contained within the universe after all, all that is must be contained within its principles and laws. Yet how many times does Ni come to conclusions which just aren't correct which are removed from how the universe works? I've seen Ni users make false assumptions on the motives of others based on their perception which simply cannot be realised or achieved (e.g. someone is sleeping with Ni user's wife even though they are 5000 miles away at the moment the incident supposedly took place.)
    Exaggerated and overly harsh to be sure but if we are honest with ourselves, there are grains of truth. Ni doms can be a little delusional and paranoid. There is this overactive imagination and at times a tendency to obsess about things in their head. There is also a tendency to be arrogant and stubbornly cling to these perceptions. I’ve read about it. I have experienced it. It’s ok. Ni is not perfect and it’s important it be balanced with other things. Accept this in ourselves. It’s a little like Enneagram in that way – the perceptions can be distorted and not entirely aligned with reality. Our intuition is not flawless. Having an awareness of this occasionally distorted perspective is what’s important. It is the foundation for addressing it.

    As an aside, I see absolutely no evidence whatsoever of @OrangeApplied and @Mane being manipulative or trying to push other people’s triggers. I have seen no harmful intent at all. I admire their persistence, honesty and directness. Are their perspectives biased by personal experiences? Sure. All of ours are. I think there might be grains of truth in several of those things in OP's list - for Ni doms in general. It's not that horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    the pattern underlining most (if not all - just in case i missed something) of the complaints is that the INFJs in the various lives of the INFPs here are complaining about, can be summed up in one belief:

    the belief that those INFJs weren't capable of experiencing remorse.
    It's already been said but I see no reason at all why this behavior would limited to INFJs. I’ve had this experience with others – ESTJs, ISFJs, ISFPs, ENTJs, INTJs, ISTJs, etc. It's very much situational. It’s a difficult thing because there is remorse that is expressed and remorse that is felt. Those two are not anywhere close to being the same. How can you know what is in someone else’s mind? @PeaceBaby had a really nice post on this topic and the 5 ways it is expressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    What I'm trying to get at is that I do make a big effort to not affect others badly, and if possible to affect them in positive ways; to be pleasant to be around, to be helpful and kind, all that sort of thing.

    I don't think that's necessarily because I'm such a wonderful person, it just feels really bad to me, really exposing and embarrassing.

    So bringing this back to the remorse thing - I feel like a lot, if not the majority, of the mistakes I make are between me and me, or between me and God.
    It seems your sense of self is very much tied to this view of yourself – as a positive influence on others. It’s interesting when viewed in relation to the last point. I wonder what would happen if there was another thread that said one of Te user’s weakness is they are incapable of remorse.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I could do what you're doing to most of us in this thread - which is calling us liars. Telling us we have no self-awareness. Telling us that we have the empathy and remorse levels of psychopaths.
    Getting past the precise words, which are clearly affected by previous experiences, I hear a couple of people saying INFJs have gaps in self-awareness. We all have gaps in-self awareness. I’m hearing them saying that INFJs don’t feel remorse because they blame things on others or because they don’t express it in a way that the other person needs to hear. Is that such a horrible thing if it were true? I can see the same behavior in other types – like a certain ISFJ that I know . Does that make her a horrible person? No.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Again, I'm not sure that the feeling of remorse carries much weight with us (Fi places more emphasis on emotion), so much as the effect of remorse (Fe places more weight on outcome).
    This seems to hit the nail on the head though even with all of the words in this thread, and all of the examples of remorse that have been described, it is more difficult for me to precisely understand exactly how the INFJ is expressing remorse to the person on the receiving end which does have an impact to that person. That, it seems to me might be a central point. I heard one poster suggest that such a thing is not particularly useful because really everyone is responsible for working through their own feelings themselves. It's an interesting point of view with certainly a great deal of validity. However... Mane’s heartfelt letter is how he expressed remorse. I think his question might be how an INFJ would do this? How would they react to a letter like that? That’s why he was asking for examples. I’ve been on the receiving end of this kind of thing but not with an INFJ - and again, I'm not sure this is limited to INFJs. What was been hurtful in those situations was the failure of that other person to express any regret, remorse, own up to their responsibility in any way or even indicate that they really cared. The things that went wrong were all my fault. There was an unwillingness to communicate much at all really (perhaps avoiding an uncomfortable situation?). Those kinds of things do have a negative impact in an some cases, it can be quite significant, whether the other person realizes it or not.

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  10. #340
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Last edited by Tiltyred; 01-14-2013 at 03:07 PM.

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