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  1. #321
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Mane's contribution made it take a different turn (such as adding the word "remorse", which I still thank him for; no, I see no manipulative villain in him either...rather, he has helped restore good faith).
    Yes, there were pros and cons of @Mane jumping in; but he certainly came into this thread with his own agenda. He saw an opportunity to again pursue his healing journey and I honestly don't begrudge him that. And he knows the thread took on collateral damage as a result. Mane chose a word that definitely brought out some very strong emotions and reactions from the INFJ camp, which is cool yet also problematic. The issue is for me 1.) I still think remorse is the wrong word 2.) He chose it specifically to elicit maximal reactivity and 3.) It increased the number of INFJ's that have checked out of this thread.

    Some useful stuff came out of that, but from my perspective, at a high price.

    I suppose you too were looking to bring to balance your negative personal experiences, challenge what was starting to look like patterns in your life ... the point evades me trying to explain why that's stressful to INFJ's, but I guess it is what it is. It's about mixing personal stuff with theoretical stuff ... yet the fundament for theoretical stuff is often that same empirical data.

    Ah well, I just started thinking again and I already feel muddy on it. It'll take time for the silt to drop out of the water for me on this thread.

    There's an obvious difference. It only has to be explained if people insist on making everything black & white, in which case, they don't really want to understand the difference. These detractors don't have anything to do with the core discussion though. They can't contribute nor take away.
    I think there's an obvious difference too. But if INFJ's don't see it that way, I don't know how to reconcile that.

    Also, let's review the thread title: "INFPs, what do INFJs do that drives you nuts?". My initial post was answering that question, which was solicited by an INFJ. The first few paragraphs were certainly wry, and I don't see the difference between it and INFP fluffy bunny half-jokes, or ESTJ micro-manager half-jokes, etc. I didn't think INFJs were above a razz, and of course there is some real irritation there (see the thread topic again).
    Yes, if I have any bone to pick it's with the whole premise of the thread. It was an invitation, and I for one decided to come back to the party and perhaps learn some more about INFJ's too, expand my understanding. But I feel like I've been handed my hat and I'm standing at the door on my way out. And, I don't dare turn my back or I may find a hatchet buried in it ...

    Anyways, I have no hard feelings, and I hope no one has any against me; please send me a PM if you do and I will happy to work through it - I was happy to learn a couple of extra things and if I can expand my thoughts on remorse specifically I'll post back on that.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #322
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I think there's an obvious difference too. But if INFJ's don't see it that way, I don't know how to reconcile that.
    I didn't think it needed to be said (plus I think you were originally addressing just Z Buck when inquiring?), but I think there's a difference. I outlined in earlier posts what my thoughts were on the list, as well as tilty's post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peacebaby
    I suppose you too were looking to bring to balance your negative personal experiences, challenge what was starting to look like patterns in your life ... the point evades me trying to explain why that's stressful to INFJ's, but I guess it is what it is. It's about mixing personal stuff with theoretical stuff ... yet the fundament for theoretical stuff is often that same empirical data.
    I'm not sure I can say any more on the 'List', other than my earlier posts where I tried to explain why the list approach didn't make sense to me. But to address what you just mentioned here, I think you raise another element that struck me the wrong way; namely, that OA and Mane both came in for highly personal reasons, to try to change their own perceptions of infj's. So given their desire to be 'proven wrong', it wasn't really impersonal/theoretical, imo, because they had specific things they were seeking, and specific 'stories' they wanted to hear. So it didn't seem to be about understanding us, really, it was about them wanting to change their perspective on infj's.

    And generally how my mind works... I'm not of a 'prove me wrong' mentality, ever. It's just not how I approach things. So when I'm asked to do that, my initial reaction is.... why? It's not on me to convince you to like me or understand me. Turning it around, with any of my friends, in any of my relationships, I don't ask people to prove something, to convince me, to change my thinking... I don't think that's fair. I let people be who they are, I ask questions to better understand if I'm confused or need more data, and if who they are isn't something in the end I'm ok with, then that's that. I don't ask for them to change, and don't want them to change just because of me.

    So the approach is just different. Foreign/confusing to me.

    Gotta sign off for a while... other things to do!!
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  3. #323
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    P R O V E M E W R O N G !
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  4. #324
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    P R O V E M E W R O N G !
    That's a Bad ENTP. Go over to your corner!
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

    My Photography and Watercolor Fine Art Prints!!! Cascade Colors Fine Art Prints
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  5. #325
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    That's a Bad ENTP. Go over to your corner!

    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  6. #326
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    This can only end in blood, peace will only ever be a temporary ceasefire in the never ending conflict that is INFP vs INFJ (though personally there are numerous other types I personally think we should go to war with.) Sooner or later Fe and Fi will clash whether it be via the ink in the pen or via the steel in the sword. Stop pulling your punches people and shoot to kill. People are viewing so get to business!

    Not to biased but my money is on the INFPs winning this conflict. Summon the cruelty that lies in the darkness of your hearts envious and seething brethren of the dark and turn a blind eye to the blind beggar of impersonal logic and strike red hot with the wickedly sharp blade which brings all to its knees. Bring ruin to your neighbour's house so he may witness only dust and smoke. Chop Chop!

  7. #327
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    This can only end in blood, peace will only ever be a temporary ceasefire in the never ending conflict that is INFP vs INFJ (though personally there are numerous other types I personally think we should go to war with.) Sooner or later Fe and Fi will clash whether it be via ink from pen or steel from sword. Stop pulling your punches people and shoot to kill. People are viewing so get to business!
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    If its form can be used as a blunt instrument to concuss or confuse and its sound can be summoned to cause the crowds to weep of every flavour of emotion then I shall throw my support behind the violin. Like Nero wanted, we shall sing to our enemies on the battlefield this day!

  9. #329
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    I have learned a lot following this thread. So all this effort by all the parties involved wasn't for naught.

    Every time I think I have a clear handle on Fe/Ti versus Fi/Te differences, I'm humbled by my obvious lack of understanding. It still blows my mind how differently Fe/Ti users think compared to me. This thread has only re-illustrated how much I still have to learn here.

    I want to thank all the INFJs who participated in this thread up until this point. The patience you took to explain yourselves was admirable indeed. I would read your long posts and say to myself, "Wow. That took a lot of time to put together." I don't know if I'd have had that kind of patience were I in your shoes.

    I also wanted to thank @OrangeAppled, @Mane, and @PeaceBaby. You guys were really in the hot seat for a while. What you wrote was just as helpful.

    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    namely, that OA and Mane both came in for highly personal reasons, to try to change their own perceptions of infj's. So given their desire to be 'proven wrong', it wasn't really impersonal/theoretical, imo, because they had specific things they were seeking, and specific 'stories' they wanted to hear. So it didn't seem to be about understanding us, really, it was about them wanting to change their perspective on infj's.
    that doesn't make sense in regards to OA, i mean, where you expecting INFPs to tell about things INFJs they didn't know do that drives them nuts? "i don't like how the author herman hesse caved in to sociological pressures and resigned as a political commentator shortly after the first world war."

    in regards to me: how would the accusation that INFJs don't meet certain expectations in inter-personal relations go any better if i didn't try to devise a way for INFJs to show that they do? i know i was being brash as f', but i did try a much more gentle approach first, and demonstrating the solution by example failed miserably. once that failed, i knew deciding to go through with this would likely hurt some feelings along the way, and more so i knew how it looked and i knew the potential sociological consequences for me, but could someone explain to me, what positive trajectory was there? what possible good for anyone could come from "INFJs do this"->"deny"-> rinse & repeat? everyone walking out of it thinking that everyone else is an asshole?
    the few who got hurt and insulted have an easy avenue of healing by discrediting me as delusional or post-traumatic (one even went on to make a highly constructive and introspective thread inspired by this in the general psychology section, another privately informed me it helped her come to a final decision on something she has being looking to do), and at least a couple of INFJs here have attested that this has gave them a lot of food for thought in one direction or another. with me coming in, most of the return fire would be pulled towards me, and since i already gave most of the INFJ-defense squad here reasons to disdain me last time we met in an INFJ thread, no prior bridges where built where they would now have being burned. i can see how the notion of injustice might be be highly applicable here, the eggs that where broken aren't the ones being served the omelets, but i'm not the only one who can enjoy that omelet, and since everyone could only participate voluntarily, justice can go screw itself. my reasons to "help" were in no way pure, and indeed extremely self-serving, but purity of intent can go hang out with justice. @PeaceBaby, maybe not everything is so far accounted for, but it seems to me the total net gain has being higher then then the total net loss, what am i missing?

    tl;dr:

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