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  1. #311
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    I say we ALL bury the hatchet and go out for drinks!

  2. #312
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Yay! Bury the hatchet! If I could just get one of them to hold still long enough!

  3. #313
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I everyone!



  4. #314
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    ...how is what Tiltyred posted not her "story", and criticizing her comment not "invalidating her experience"? Yes, it's worded strongly. Perhaps worded too strongly to seem fair? (If yes, would it be invalidating your experience to say "It's childish to call it unfair"?.....after all, it's just Tiltyred's opinion, right?)
    The major problem I have with what Tiltyred wrote is not with the frustrations she expressed. Those are "her story" and I have no problem with her expressing this. However, intertwined with reasonably expressed frustrations were personal insults, aka an ad hominem attack.

    From Wikipedia: An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an argument made personally against an opponent instead of against their argument.
    Rather than keeping her comments on point about why certain non-INFJs were behaving in a manner she didn't like, she started attacking people personally:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Screw you blood sucking, mind-fucking, emotionally deaf and dumb, clueless, neurotic, noodly-headed biatches. Leave us alone. You don't have to like us or approve of us.
    I'm not invalidating that she was feeling frustrated and fed up. She obviously was. I acknowledge and validate this. I'm just saying that the manner in which she chose to express herself was unnecessarily vituperative. There was simply no need for it. Not only did it not help her make her argument, it was needlessly hurtful. In other words, stick with the straight facts instead of going with the personal attacks.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  5. #315
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerlily View Post
    I saw we bury the hatchet and all go out for drinks!
    I'm all for this.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  6. #316
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I'm rewinding back a long ways - I've just gone back to see if OA's list feels like an ad hominem approach to INFJ's.

    Here's point 1 & 2 from her list (I've deleted OA's disclaimer preface):

    1. General paranoia. Example: everyone is out to get them for no good reason. All of their problems are due to these people who are out to get them, and there is absolutely nothing they have done to spur these people, of course. In reality, these people may not like them, but they are ignoring the INFJ, not out to get them; OR the INFJ has given them a reason to react that way.

    2. Selfishness & in denial about it. Playing tyrant/victim, whichever suits them to get their way. They pat themselves on the back for being so "giving", but they only give in ways that suits them (ie. benefits them also in some way), not according to what people truly need & are even asking for.

    Now, in that thread, @uumlau responded to the points:

    1. General paranoia.
    Yes, but it isn't "everyone is out to get them." It's more like if they get burned once, they put up major walls to prevent getting burned again, or if that's impossible, they gloomily predict getting burned again. AND they're often correct about it. One INFJ friend of mine was fairly good at predicting when he'd get let go from a job. Now, he'd predict it more often than would happen, but he was still uncannily accurate.

    2. Selfishness & in denial about it. Playing tyrant/victim, whichever suits them to get their way. They pat themselves on the back for being so "giving", but they only give in ways that suits them (ie. benefits them also in some way), not according to what people truly need & are even asking for.
    Yes and no. The selfishness aspect is Ni. Ni dominant means we're in our heads all the time. That makes us fairly oblivious to our selfish tendencies, because we're mostly "selfish" because we aren't paying attention to that sort of thing. Even auxiliary Fe doesn't always ameliorate this all the time (for the same reason that aux Te doesn't always make INTJs logical). And for the same reason that not all INTJs are super-logical as they pretend to be, not all INFJs are truly emotionally aware as they pretend to be. Or rather, INTJs are super-logical about particular things, not everything, and INFJs are exceptionally emotionally aware about particular things, not everything.

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1668434


    Now, I daresay, this is exactly what @OrangeAppled was looking for in response from INFJ's. Say yes, say no, point / counter-point. Not saying that uumlau is right or wrong either, just what his experience was, and I'm just including this for illustrative purposes. Maybe that's it though, it really is a third party thing. But I'd rather get the story first-hand! I would want to hear it from INFJ's!

    Maybe it all fell apart at the "remorse" stage. Thanks Mane.

    @Z Buck McFate: If you find OA's approach comparable to Tilty's ie you find that her list is just a short-hand for calling INFJ's "blood sucking, mind-fucking, emotionally deaf and dumb, clueless, neurotic, noodly-headed biatches" then I guess I'll concede that point.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #317
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    [SPOILER]i suppose that's supportive, so thank you, but that conclusion seems... cheep.
    the more interesting question is, would you assume she thinks of herself in any different manner?
    I'm sure she does. I'm sure she's even found a way to justify it to herself. It's just not justified to any objective standard unless you are a crazy, deluded, violent person or a liar.

    The only justification for keeping a man from his child is if the man is a danger to the child, IMO or if it is impossible to allow the man to see the child without risking the safety of the mother.

    I can't see a good justification for an adult woman to hit her partner unless he is physically assaulting her in some way.

    I can understand why some people cheat under extreme circumstances, but I don't think it's usually the best possible way to deal with things.

    I don't think any explanations you get from someone who is capable of this kind of behavior are going to be satisfying to you, unless she had a psychotic episode and is now getting treatment or if she was under the influence of drugs and has since stopped using or she had a brain tumor and it has since been removed.

    The reason I think that is because under normal circumstances, there is no good reason or even acceptable reason for someone to do that to someone else. And someone who is capable of that stuff under normal circumstances is never going to offer real remorse because they are so broken and screwed up that their thoughts and emotions aren't going to make any sense.

    It's like asking why my childhood pet hamster ate her babies and expecting an answer that is acceptable to a human. The only thing that would make any sense would be if she was starving, but I know she had food. I'm sure she had perfectly reasonable hamster reasons, just like your ex has perfectly good evil psychotic bitch reasons, but they aren't going to make sense to you because you aren't evil and psychotic any more than you are a hamster.

    You've been savaged and bereaved and left for dead. I understand wanting to make sense of it, but it isn't ever going to make sense to someone with a reasonable ability to function as a normal human being. And nothing will ever give you back everything you've lost or make it okay. At this point, seeking answers in philosophy would be more appropriate than seeking them in psychology. And I honestly don't think there are any answers for why life shits on people like has happened to you or at least not any answers we can understand in this life.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #318
    It's always something... PuddleRiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Yay! Bury the hatchet! If I could just get one of them to hold still long enough!


    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay one invincible summer."
    ~~~~
    A Christian's life may be the only Bible some people ever read.
    ~~~~
    "The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them" Maya Angelou.
    ~~~~
    I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ" Gandhi
    ~~~~

  9. #319
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Now, I daresay, this is exactly what OrangeAppled was looking for in response from INFJ's. Say yes, say no, point / counter-point.
    Pretty much. It didn't really become "personal". It stayed general & in the realm of theory. That's where I hoped this would stay. I hoped I'd get a theoretical breakdown of how remorse plays out in an INFJ.

    Mane's contribution made it take a different turn (such as adding the word "remorse", which I still thank him for; no, I see no manipulative villain in him either...rather, he has helped restore good faith). My last post was pretty much meant to be my exit post, in terms of discussing the actual topic. I thought it was clear that I sought no more & was satisfied with what I had gleaned. I didn't expect anyone to start giving lengthy personal remorse stories after that. As I said above, I thought it would stay in a sort of impersonal, analysis realm where we'd talk about concepts, not pour our hearts out. But I thank those who did and hope the process was beneficial in some way for you as well.

    I can see my motivations are going to continue to be vilified though, even by those who claim they accepted my real intent. No honest communication can occur if that's the case. It seems like there was some honest communication there for a moment though, and again, I thank those who contributed.

    If you find OA's approach comparable to Tilty's ie you find that her list is just a short-hand for calling INFJ's "blood sucking, mind-fucking, emotionally deaf and dumb, clueless, neurotic, noodly-headed biatches" then I guess I'll concede that point.
    There's an obvious difference. It only has to be explained if people insist on making everything black & white, in which case, they don't really want to understand the difference. These detractors don't have anything to do with the core discussion though. They can't contribute nor take away.

    Also, let's review the thread title: "INFPs, what do INFJs do that drives you nuts?". My initial post was answering that question, which was solicited by an INFJ. The first few paragraphs were certainly wry, and I don't see the difference between it and INFP fluffy bunny half-jokes, or ESTJ micro-manager half-jokes, etc. I didn't think INFJs were above a razz, and of course there is some real irritation there (see the thread topic again). The list was reposted out of laziness to rewrite those irritations, but with a genuine desire to discuss these patterns I saw & get some real understanding. But I've explained my motives soooo many times now.... and no one is able to successfully pin any other on me short of creating a strawman, conveniently leaving out details which don't align with their dismissal. I truly think many have not even read all of my posts in full, nor followed the core discussion.

    Personally, Tilty's post is the sort of thing that's a minor blip on my radar. If it was actually witty, then maybe I'd laugh. Maybe if it was connected to theory & seeking understanding, then it would catch my attention. I won't be losing sleep over it or any of the other detractors' comments; that's for sure. I will say that in spite of it, I have shaken the pattern for INFJs like an etch a sketch and hit the reset on my benefit of the doubt.

    That's my summary of the thread.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  10. #320
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    We're still taking admissions/conversions back into the ISFJ camp.... This NF stuff isn't all it's cracked up to be.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

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