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  1. #21
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Thanks, everyone. These are wonderful insights and perhaps they will help me be a better friend to the INFPs in my life.

  2. #22
    Senior Member sulfit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sulfit View Post
    INFPs and INFJs are in quasi-identical relations going by this chart which follow exactly as you say. Both people seem similar but have a lot of trouble explaining themselves to each other. It also shows that communication between INFJs and ENFPs (IEI and IEE) should be easier than between INFJs and INFPs (IEI and EII).
    Quote Originally Posted by sorenx7 View Post
    Both having trouble explaining themselves to each other is so right. It's frustrating in an exhausting way--the INFJ/INFP communication problem. I'm wondering if the similar but different situation might be comparable to a Portuguese and Spaniard trying to talk to each other? The two languages are both very similar yet very different all at the same time. From what I understand of this, some communication is possible, but it can never be completely precise, of course. It would be my guess (from my limited knowledge of Spanish and Portuguese) that Spanish sounds like badly-damaged Portuguese to the Portuguese and Portuguese sounds like badly-damaged Spanish to the Spaniard. It's not a perfect analogy (there is no such thing,) but it is one way to approach the issue.
    These two types think in very different manners. When it comes to explaining something, you are right, they cannot speak each other's language and so any arguments keep running in circles. They won't be able to persuade each other.

    So if you are INFJ with INFP friend or vice versa, keep this in mind so you don't feel disappointed later.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by sulfit View Post
    These two types think in very different manners. When it comes to explaining something, you are right, they cannot speak each other's language and so any arguments keep running in circles. They won't be able to persuade each other.

    So if you are INFJ with INFP friend or vice versa, keep this in mind so you don't feel disappointed later.
    Maybe some people will take your advice. If they don't need it now, they may need it in the future and save themselves a world of hurt.

  4. #24
    Senior Member _eric_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Don't worry @SilkRoadOn the forum I do get a bit annoyed more generally with the Ni-dom issue of claiming they know some sort of objective truth about something I think is a matter of opinion - however INFJs tend to show more tact in this than the INTJs. But then, frankly I'm a bit of a know-it-all myself (albeit in a different way) so I should probably shut up
    The thing is, you gotta know what areas you can do that in (or at least in as objective a way as possible), and what areas where that sort of thing just doesn't work at all, especially when it comes to people since we are not so easy to fit into a testable, repeatable system. Can't use the same approach for everything, and unless you are dealing with very hard facts, like math, you can't claim to be 100% objective. Regardless, it is better to acknowledge what you do not know, before anything.

    As for this whole death spiral of communication thing, I don't think it is inevitable at all. Like anything dealing with communication, it really depends on how mature each person is and how much experience they have in balancing out their weaknesses (like for INFJs, being too pushy and overbearing, refusing to see things from a different perspective and admit they might be wrong). My interactions with NFPs have not been perfect, but overall I have very little trouble communicating with them, and it is always quite enjoyable on both ends. We get along really well. I am always more than happy to explain what I think to them differently or in more detail if there is even a hint of misunderstanding, while doing my best to not come across as too strong or harsh (yes, I have been pretty bad at that before but I am so much better now that it is rarely ever an issue), and I express the same need when what they say perhaps isn't specific enough for me to get what they mean, and I am good at helping them with that process, to kind of collect and refine their thoughts from nebulous and nearly unable to be expressed, to condensed and easily seen, which in my experience they have been very appreciative of. The dynamic is very complementary and if both people are willing to put in the effort and practice lots of patience and careful consideration of each other, it's great for balancing and stretching out each other's weaknesses. That is the key to whether it becomes that awful death spiral or something wonderful. Don't be too set in your own ways and kick that stubbornness to the curb! Remember that you aren't out to prove each other wrong, it's not a formal debate...or at least you shouldn't be going about it that way, if you want things to go well.

    Yes, there are bad apples--as with any type--but there are plenty of good ones too!

  5. #25
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    Expectations without understanding (obviously goes both ways).

    If I was an infj i'd read up on differences in functional attitudes without positing "the infp" as being "opposed" i.e. an open ended investigation in understanding...

  6. #26
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    Getting a feel for how Fi operates may be a good approach... obviously there will be more natural points to address issues between you (because they will come up) but doing some work in understanding before conflict or disagreement can be good.. infps aren't the best at handling conflict in a rational way, better if things are addressed before it blows up to get the best out of the infp harmonising and resolving

  7. #27
    Senior Member Joehobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _eric_ View Post
    The thing is, you gotta know what areas you can do that in (or at least in as objective a way as possible), and what areas where that sort of thing just doesn't work at all, especially when it comes to people since we are not so easy to fit into a testable, repeatable system. Can't use the same approach for everything, and unless you are dealing with very hard facts, like math, you can't claim to be 100% objective. Regardless, it is better to acknowledge what you do not know, before anything.

    As for this whole death spiral of communication thing, I don't think it is inevitable at all. Like anything dealing with communication, it really depends on how mature each person is and how much experience they have in balancing out their weaknesses (like for INFJs, being too pushy and overbearing, refusing to see things from a different perspective and admit they might be wrong). My interactions with NFPs have not been perfect, but overall I have very little trouble communicating with them, and it is always quite enjoyable on both ends. We get along really well. I am always more than happy to explain what I think to them differently or in more detail if there is even a hint of misunderstanding, while doing my best to not come across as too strong or harsh (yes, I have been pretty bad at that before but I am so much better now that it is rarely ever an issue), and I express the same need when what they say perhaps isn't specific enough for me to get what they mean, and I am good at helping them with that process, to kind of collect and refine their thoughts from nebulous and nearly unable to be expressed, to condensed and easily seen, which in my experience they have been very appreciative of. The dynamic is very complementary and if both people are willing to put in the effort and practice lots of patience and careful consideration of each other, it's great for balancing and stretching out each other's weaknesses. That is the key to whether it becomes that awful death spiral or something wonderful. Don't be too set in your own ways and kick that stubbornness to the curb! Remember that you aren't out to prove each other wrong, it's not a formal debate...or at least you shouldn't be going about it that way, if you want things to go well.

    Yes, there are bad apples--as with any type--but there are plenty of good ones too!
    And winner of the thread goes too....


    Seriously, hit the nail on the head.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=_eric_;2010532]The thing is, you gotta know what areas you can do that in (or at least in as objective a way as possible), and what areas where that sort of thing just doesn't work at all, especially when it comes to people since we are not so easy to fit into a testable, repeatable system. Can't use the same approach for everything, and unless you are dealing with very hard facts, like math, you can't claim to be 100% objective. Regardless, it is better to acknowledge what you do not know, before anything.

    As for this whole death spiral of communication thing, I don't think it is inevitable at all. Like anything dealing with communication, it really depends on how mature each person is and how much experience they have in balancing out their weaknesses (like for INFJs, being too pushy and overbearing, refusing to see things from a different perspective and admit they might be wrong). My interactions with NFPs have not been perfect, but overall I have very little trouble communicating with them, and it is always quite enjoyable on both ends. We get along really well. I am always more than happy to explain what I think to them differently or in more detail if there is even a hint of misunderstanding, while doing my best to not come across as too strong or harsh (yes, I have been pretty bad at that before but I am so much better now that it is rarely ever an issue), and I express the same need when what they say perhaps isn't specific enough for me to get what they mean, and I am good at helping them with that process, to kind of collect and refine their thoughts from nebulous and nearly unable to be expressed, to condensed and easily seen, which in my experience they have been very appreciative of. The dynamic is very complementary and if both people are willing to put in the effort and practice lots of patience and careful consideration of each other, it's great for balancing and stretching out each other's weaknesses. That is the key to whether it becomes that awful death spiral or something wonderful. Don't be too set in your own ways and kick that stubbornness to the curb! Remember that you aren't out to prove each other wrong, it's not a formal debate...or at least you shouldn't be going about it that way, if you want things to go well.

    Very logical points, Eric. Thanks. I think the maturity thing goes a long way.

  9. #29
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I have a lot of negative things I could say... and just might say. It doesn't mean I don't like (some) INFJs, even those who annoy me, but I certianly don't see them as the demi-gods others around here worship them as.

    @sorenx7 will find this familiar...

    I will joke that their only flaw is being "too perfect" because that's all they'll cop to.

    INFPs & INFJs often do well in the same realms, but with different approaches. Socionics gets it right there, although I don't think it always leads to misunderstandings. This doesn't bother the INFP, in general, but INFJs seem to think there's "a way" and that of course, is their way. This makes INFJs either diminish the INFP's strengths and/or resent them. As a result, you actually hear much more admiration from the INFP camp, which creates an imbalance & eventual resentment from the INFP. The INFJ is patronizing in trying to "guide" someone who is already superior in some capacity.

    INFPs are excessively humble, and will readily admit faults while not giving themselves enough credit, whereas INFJs tend to overrate themselves & divert criticisms so as to not have to cop to any faults. This works to basically leave people with the impression that they are nearly faultless. Basically, INFJs seem to believe their own hype & manipulate others into believing it also.

    However, as noted, INFJs tend to have a major blindspot when it comes to humility. That's a Ni-dom problem, but at least with INTJs it's out there, with no faking otherwise; INFJs often have this facade of being caring & self-sacrificing, but then they're very fickle & self-serving internally (which they conveniently put a spin on so they don't have to face their own selfishness).

    ---

    Oh, I found THIS post

    These are problems I have experienced in INFJs I know in person. I'm not saying this is what all INFJs are like or that these points even sum up these individuals (who DO have good qualities), but I see these as "common issues" in INFJs.

    Anyone want to cop to some of these (even if to lesser degree), explain how you get over these negative tendencies, etc?

    I've included some points from a Ni description which seem to explain the "root" of some of these issues.

    1. General paranoia. Example: everyone is out to get them for no good reason. All of their problems are due to these people who are out to get them, and there is absolutely nothing they have done to spur these people, of course. In reality, these people may not like them, but they are ignoring the INFJ, not out to get them; OR the INFJ has given them a reason to react that way.

    "Have little awareness of the facts of the external world... the world of facts are far removed for them, and they try to confine their contact with these things to the aspects which they can regulate as they like. Everything else appears to them as suspicious, as something they must defend themselves against."

    "The influence of reason is inconsistent & self-centered....and the knowledge behind their thoughts is often incomplete.....they may force a line of reasoning that ends up being unclear and contradictory."

    2. Selfishness & in denial about it. Playing tyrant/victim, whichever suits them to get their way. They pat themselves on the back for being so "giving", but they only give in ways that suits them (ie. benefits them also in some way), not according to what people truly need & are even asking for.

    " Egotism, and a desire to dominate, may cause them to use these requirements of an ideal relationship to benefit their own agenda."

    3. They will not take personal responsibility* for any problem in their life or any negative effect they have on others; they are always blaming something outside themselves.

    4. General Delusion*. They will see nothing but what they want to see, which is a majorly distorted perspective completely at odds with the reality of the world. See quote for #1.

    5. They are not simply sensitive to criticism; they refuse to acknowledge they have flaws at all or that they have any blame in a situation, period. Yet, they criticize others heavily & have high expectations for them that they could never meet themselves.

    "They may make demands on others without being prepared to meet the same demands themselves."

    6. They make promises or state intentions they either cannot keep or don't intend to keep, mainly to get others to do what they want. When they are called on these promises, they get mad at people for being "demanding"* & accuse them of not being supportive of them by expecting too much. I see this as a form of manipulation, even if not intentional.

    "Seek to regulate everything according to their own ideas...
    Apt to be tyrants within their own small circle...
    Rather than adapt themselves to others, they will limit their contact with those who do not agree with them..."

    7. INSANE double standards. For example, only the INFJ is allowed to be hurt; if they hurt you & you communicate this, then they act hurt that you'd dare imply they are even capable of hurting someone (see inability to accept criticism, even if that means they will invalidate others' feelings & trample their needs). Other kinds of double standards they flex include holding other people to standards they themselves fail to meet & likely never will. See quote for #5.

    * Elaboration: They respond to emotional pain with a perspective shift which eases that pain by removing personal responsibility. Instead of literally running away (as a Pe type would; seeking a new external environment for better possibilities), they mentally distance themselves from something, creating a new mental possibility (or viewpoint) that has nothing to do with reality, but soothes their feelings. This new, distorted perspective explains away any blame they might have to accept otherwise. Now, they don't have to change what they do either; instead, they insist others change for them, & they either cut these people off or manipulate them to if they won't adhere to the INFJ's wishes.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  10. #30
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Do you see most INFJs on here are looking to be seen as demi gods, or exhibiting these characteristics? Without getting personal, I think over a lot of the long time INFJs on here: cascadeco, Silkroad, Vasilisa, Z Buck, Tiltyred, and they don't strike me that way. [edit: I notice now that fia also has officially joined the INFJ ranks and also belongs on that list]. On the other hand, perhaps I'm looking at it from my own context and the INFJ interaction style looks different to an onlooker.

    I agree that INFPs tend to more openly express admiration and also downplay their strengths. I don't agree that all INFJs everywhere don't see that INFPs have strengths they don't.

    I'd like to better understand. Is it a matter of hoping INFJs will admit to the flaws you have experienced in them (if so, a different approach might be more effective with us/them). Is it giving other types a heads up to stay away? Or is there no intention at all other than voicing an opinion?

    I can't speak for other INFJs, but these are a few of the flaws I see most commonly in myself:
    1) Tendency to avoid blame or feeling that I am disappointing others. As a result, overpromise and don't deliver and therefore do just what I was hoping to avoid.
    2) Grandiose dreams with poor follow through. I think this has something to do with Ni. What you see farther along is like a mirage that keeps disappearing or a dream that you just woke up from and try to recreate. Anything you create seems like a poor replication of the glory it ought to be. And so you put it off or scrap it instead of finishing the project.
    3) Bad with details that are uninteresting or difficult for me.
    4) Procrastination with things I am unsure of or need to think about more.
    5) Reluctance to look at things from another point of view once my own thought structure is in place.
    6) Discounting an idea if the person it comes from has insufficient credibility with me.
    7) Giving people things they don't want in an attempt to be helpful and supportive.
    8) Avoidance of emotionally painful situations, rather than dealing with it head on as things start feeling dicey.
    9) Seeming judgey to some people (usually in my inner circle), even if I don't say anything negative to them. I think it mostly has to do with deciding whether the good would outweigh the bad in bringing it up.
    10) Don't adapt well to others, just distance self instead. That is one from your list I'd agree with. I think though it has more to do with it being just as difficult to change my thinking structure as it is for you to change the perceptions you have built up through Fi. It's easier to disengage with people who are too different from me, than to have constant conflict or ditch something I actually believe to be important and true. It's one of the number one reasons I can't be on a committee. I need to either be a drone or a boss but not a collaborator. It just doesn't work.
    11) Bring things up that bother me much after the fact. Not fun for other people and seems overly critical. I have a hard time deciding which things are important and which aren't until the last straw and then it all comes rushing out and that's no good either. I don't like being that way. Just don't know how to do it better.
    12) A bit inflexible and reluctant to try something unless I know exactly how I'll feel about it beforehand.

    I think with time, I've at least become more aware of some of these things and the negative impact they can have on others and have worked to improve them. I'd be the first to admit that there are aspects of me that would be most frustrating to deal with. I do think though that it is not so much a matter of refusal to admit they're a problem, as it is how to change in a way that is sustainable.

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