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  1. #281
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    baggage opening warning & disclaimer:
    remorse in my case isn't about words, it's about stopping what she is doing. off, dad.
    That is totally understandable. However, evil psychotic bitches do evil psychotic stuff because they are evil and psychotic. Evil psychotic behavior and MBTI type are two totally different animals. No type is free of evil psychotic people and the presence of evil psychotic people of a particular type does not define the type as a whole.

    I've been married twenty years and I've never once hit my husband. Or rather I haven't hit him in ways that he doesn't like. I've taught our kids to respect, if not revere him. I've never slept with anyone but him. Ever. When I learned arguing was not an effective communication tool with him, I changed my communication style. I've gone hungry with him. I've spent North Dakota winters with him without a car. Just in the last few months, I've built the eight foot tall book shelves and ten foot long desk he wanted and designed.

    I know I can be kind of a crazy bitch, but I have a sense of honor. I'm not saying it's not some weird Scots-Irish trailer trash version of honor, but it's honor nonetheless. If he doesn't hit me, cheat on me, or voluntarily let the kids and I do without (like gamble or drink away his paychecks so we can't pay our bills or buy food) I won't throw all his crap in the yard and burn it or stab him in his sleep. I don't think that's unreasonable.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #282
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Been thinking and thinking on this thread again ... ah my brain!

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Yes, I see a lot of- what I call Pe bullying, but I don’t know what the hell it is- it just looks to me like people who have no clue how difficult something is making judgments about it cavalierly and feeling rather self righteous in doing so.
    The word "judgements" seems key to me here ... I can see how a unvarnished Pe way of saying something seems "judgy" in this thread. Or maybe "decided" is a better term. Thinking data1 + Thinking data2 + Thinking data3 = Conclusion. We smack that down and it sure looks like a fact, when in fact, it's still a challengeable question: Does Thinking data1 + Thinking data2 + Thinking data3 = Conclusion??? And you're right, to cease the collection of new data to formulate any kind of Conclusion does seem presumptuous even (that's why we like stories). We don't have all the data, and in fact to INFJ eyes, there's so much MORE data that the conclusions drawn seem - preposterous. And not only preposterous here in this instance, but also hurtful and insulting because it relates to elements of the INFJ identity.

    To us, it doesn't feel like we are making judgements ... more like throwing around hypotheses. ??

    Could it be that Fe-Ti folks do the same thing too, a kind of parallel collecting for Emo Data: Emo data1 + Emo data2 + Emo data3 = Conclusion. Then, NFP's anyway, we get pissy when Emo data is limited to those kinds of parameters too. Remember that time I shared the story about my INFJ friend at work, who was going through a divorce, and how Tilty said it should have been so OBVIOUS to me that if my friend performed poorly in a meeting that it was because she was embroiled in some drama related to the divorce? I find it presumptuous to limit my data in that circumstance, and it's insulting even to consider that EVERY time she might perform poorly, it's going to be because of the Divorce. It's a far more complex equation than that above.

    It does seem parallel to you objecting to us simplifying yours. What do you think? And not just tossing around ideas, but toying with ideas that ... well, are controversial and even ridiculous when contemplating the entire human experience we all share.

    My terms here might not work either (Emo vs Thinking data) - thinking out loud disclaimer.

    I can only assume they don’t begin to know the buttons they’re pushing- because no one with any sense would push those buttons while simultaneously accusing the very same people of not having remorse (because continuing to push the buttons demonstrates an almost alarming lack of remorse in itself).
    I'm still here in thread but with much trepidation at this point. I can certainly see the increasing danger signals, and feel the strong emotions, but frankly I confess I do not know exactly why. Toying with value-neutral Thinking data seems as innocuous to me as toying with value-neutral Emotional data to you. I want to take care of your emotions, but I know that's not what you need exactly, but I don't know what to do either.

    Can you state what you need in a situation like this? Space? Time? Assurances? Apologies?

    That said, I do care deeply that it pains the INFJ's here. I don't want to hurt anyone or cause anyone torment.

    ….it does make me angry when I see TiltyRed’s post, or to see SilkRoad get upset, because I totally understand where it’s coming from.
    Do you approve of Tilty's addition to this thread or does it make you angry that she lashed out like that? Since I'm in this thread too, and not an INFJ, I believe I've just been told I am a "blood sucking, mind-fucking, emotionally deaf and dumb, clueless, neurotic, noodly-headed biatch."

    Does Tilty's post give INFJ's a chuckle that Tilty just "said her thing"? To me, all it really does is promote an atmosphere of hostility and tie into OA's post, exactly what people are pushing against here.

    To me, Tilty's post says the following: PostFromPB1 + PostFromPB2 + PostFromPB3 = Biatch.

    And I object to that as much as how OA's post appears to posit (esp to INFJ eyes): Trait1 + Trait2 + Trait3 + Trait 4 = INFJ.

    ~end part 1
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #283
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Do you approve of Tilty's addition to this thread or does it make you angry that she lashed out like that? Since I'm in this thread too, and not an INFJ, I believe I've just been told I am a "blood sucking, mind-fucking, emotionally deaf and dumb, clueless, neurotic, noodly-headed biatch."

    Does Tilty's post give INFJ's a chuckle that Tilty just "said her thing"? To me, all it really does is promote an atmosphere of hostility and tie into OA's post, exactly what people are pushing against here.


    ~end part 1[/QUOTE]

    I can't relate to the language or force behind her post, because to your point it's disregarding the viewpoints of the other posters' in this thread, and placing negative intentions on them, just as infj's have been trying to not be misunderstood in this thread in their own posts.

    I can relate to why she said it though, as it's been very hard for me not to be intensely wary about what is being said of me / of 'INFJ's', as on my end it feels manipulative, the approach being taken and what is being solicited of us. But I've been trying to override some of what I've been feeling so as to try to be more objective and try to give the benefit of the doubt.

    I've said this before, a long while back, but I've mused on the possibility that just as NFP's/P's in general have more 'confidence' and solidity in their internal world, and are much more flowy externally, NFJ's/J's in general have more 'confidence' and solidity in their external world, and are much more flowy or uncertain internally.

    SO, P's value and 'need' that freedom externally, and THEY feel manipulated when Fe/Te is put upon them, as it's forcing them to solidify what they prefer not to. J's value and 'need' that freedom internally, and they (we) feel manipulated when Ti/Fi is put upon them...so all of these sorts of threads seem to be forcing the Ni-dom hand in resolving conclusively internally, when Ni-doms just don't tend to work that way. Or, I don't, at least. I realize this thought isn't fully fleshed-out, but I'm trying to get out how different types feel manipulated/pressured in different ways; that our trigger points are quite different. So for me, a fellow J poking at me or being bossy is like, 'meh', whatever.... I don't react in the same way, and I can easily resist it.... nor do I read any ill-intent in them trying to organize the external world in a certain way. But a P trying to get me to organize my internal world a certain way?? That's a whole different can of worms.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  4. #284
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Part 2

    I suspect part of what's going on in any kind of verbal disconnect between our types too are differing languages of apology - think "love languages" and there are "apology languages" too:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfs7SwNxAak

    A pdf: http://www.parentbooksummaries.com/w...of-Apology.pdf

    And a quick summary:

    THE FIVE LANGUAGES OF APOLOGY

    1. Expressing Regret
    “I am sorry.”

    2. Accepting Responsibility
    “I was wrong.”

    3. Making Restitution
    “What can I do to make it right?”

    4. Genuinely Repenting
    “Iʼll try not to do that again.”

    5. Requesting Forgiveness
    “Will you please forgive me?”

    Which would INFJ's identify with more, and which INFP's? I believe they will be different.

    And it bears mention that an "in-person" approach here would likely erase 85 - 90% of the INFJ/INFP disconnect we get from each other time to time! We need a wider hermeneutic embracing the written, verbal, and non-verbal - too bad the forum is just text.

    I propose a meet-up!

    Part 3 to come is a discussion of remorse in this context above, but my brain is too fried atm to attempt it.



    ~end part 2
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #285
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    After reading this thread, surely the title should be renamed : "what DONT INFJ's do that drives you nuts?"
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  6. #286
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I can relate to why she said it though, as it's been very hard for me not to be intensely wary about what is being said of me / of 'INFJ's', as on my end it feels manipulative, the approach being taken and what is being solicited of us.
    It feels that way because it is that way.

  7. #287
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    It feels that way because it is that way.
    Maybe; otoh, there have been things on this forum others have cited as manipulative but from my perspective they aren't at all, and I totally see a different intent behind it. That's why I brought up the J/P thing.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  8. #288
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    (laboriously searches thread for Tilty's infamous post)...

    oh, hmm... that was intense Tilty.

    (Initiates blood transfusion.)

    For all intents and purposes, I agree with the background message. Mostly because of INFJ's trying to reach understandings and compromises in the face of a lot of clear bitterness and ignorance. She lost so much blood that she became delirious and called everyone noodly headed bitches. (Stitches Tiltys neck up and tries to cover scars with makeup.) Next time watch that verbiage young lady. It makes people uncomfortable.
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  9. #289
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Last edited by Tiltyred; 01-14-2013 at 03:05 PM.

  10. #290
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    Let's all try to keep things civil, folks.

    Emphasis on "all."

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