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  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I do see how you make this connection with these stories & that process. Yes, this is a glimmer of hope for the INFJ segment of humanity :P (<---- cheekiness, INFJs, cheekiness). I can admit that it is hard for me to see this behavior outside of "saving face". This is why I asked to hear about "losing face".
    i see what your saying about "saving face", but i think there are cases of "loosing face" in various forms in the stories of vasilisa, halla's women and fidelia's.

    as for your question, when does Fe save the day... by itself it doesn't, it just works very hard on preventing the disaster in the first place, and as everything else which is human, often fails. its only when Fe and Ti work in harmony, when the carebear machine and the question making machines do the dance, when Ti forces you to fact check and acknowledge the reality you create, and Fe is opened towards it's meaning, that you have the wide spectrum of the ability to be... thoughtful.

    i am wondering to what extent this distinction might be a barrier. assuming i am typed correctly, then there is remorse in Fe, it's just that when i feel guilt and experience remorse, i am feeling guilty for un-thoughtful behavior, which isn't the same as unmoral, but shares a very wide area simply because morals are very good guidelines about how to be thoughtful.

    is that a distinction you can accept? can that still fit in what you expect of remorse?

  2. #272
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    @OrangeAppled, thanks for explaining more and for being tolerant of my snippiness.

    This topic is one of the things that kept me up, wide awake and anxious, for a few hours in bed last night, as I was really trying to grasp how exactly remorse in the sense you describe it applies to me and my life and my past. And I think I see what you're driving at, in terms of the 'pattern' you have noticed and are trying to understand.

    I actually still don't feel I have a good handle on it myself, as for me to truly 'get it' I think I'd have to spend another 2 unpleasant weeks doing some internal anlysis, trying to sift through what might actually be true and what is not. But, I'll say the initial stuff.

    I think some of it ties to what cafe said here:


    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    If I did something that hurt someone in a major way, it's probably not due to a minor oversight, but something intrinsic to myself that is screwed up or at odds with the other person in a fundamental way. Maybe I can change it. Maybe I can't. Maybe I think I *could* change it, but don't know how to change it and don't feel like I can devote the resources to it right now. Maybe I would have done differently knowing what I know now. Maybe I still think it was the best thing I could have done with what I had to work with at the time.
    To elaborate, I think I have always approached relationships in a sense of Compatibility. Some people are far more compatible together than others, and this stretches across numerous dimensions - emotional, values, intellectual, physical, chemistry, life goals, simple logistics (location, living arrangements), and so on. I run into some serious land mines in terms of navigating all of this, as far as sometimes flexing too much, sometimes not enough, it's about trying to figure out what those boundaries are and what in fact are the things about myself that are Intrinsic and unbendable, and I don't *want* to flex, or cannot flex without self-destructing, vs. what aren't intrinsic, that I can bend on, that I should be questioning any initial rigidity on, etc. And to be honest it can be a learning curve, and in a few relationships I've probably 'learned' later in that something isn't going to work or isn't what I want or need. And I think I have hurt two people through that process.

    So I have 'remorse' in the sense that I am remorseful for my existence sometimes, and the fact that I haven't known myself well enough earlier on, and have then had to end the relationship or they have ended it. And after the first time this happened at age 25 (a 'mere' 6 month relationship), I was so upset with myself and with him (as the combo of us together was bad. My being in a poor internal state brought out his worst, I think, and he then became more controlling, which set me off further, etc). And I was bitter for a few years that I did that. To be perfectly honest I was more self-hating than remorseful for any hurt I may have caused him. At the same time, I didn't want to be so ill-guided and 'clueless' in any future relationships, so I was much more careful in the future, trying to listen more to myself, slow things down if I was uncomfortable (rather than just appeasing the other person), etc. And generally things were fine for years. Then I slipped up again in a similar way at age 31 -> stifling my internal voice of not being super-duper into the guy, and turning to rationalization instead, rationalizing that maybe I was being too quick to judge, that maybe I should give him/it some time, even though my heart wasn't really in it. Well, you can probably guess that that just opened things up for more hurt. He started to really fall for me, but I was just busy trying to convince myself that maybe it could work. But my heart wasn't in it, and I wasn't into him in that way. So of course I hurt him when I ended it after a month. I didn't listen to myself, I just went along with things, while he undoubtedly thought things were going well. For all I know this is just 'typical' dating woes, illustrating the fact that two people rarely sync up / a relationship actually working out doesn't happen often, that one or more people don't know themselves well enough or etc. But thought I'd share it anyway.

    Because, I don't have any stories of long relationships going super sour, or complete disintegration or hurt or situations where there's been intense love but also hurting the other person.

    So I don't have remorse on that level; I only have sadness and bittersweetness around relationships that while there were tears and misunderstandings and sometimes hurt, it was worked through, they still didn't work out for one reason or another, but they weren't catastrophes where we ceased speaking. I'm still friends with my recent ex, and while on some level I'm sad it didn't work out - just as I'm sad when I look back at any relationship where I really loved the person but it didn't work out - it is what it is, I guess.

    That's all I've got. So, I have sadness, and I go through bouts of thinking I suck and so I withdraw myself from the relationship world because I think there's something about me and relationships that I don't get, and a few people have been victim to my figuring things out as time goes on. It's hard for me to find a 'solution' to that problem, though. This is probably a significant downside to not having a hard-and-fast solid internal network, and of being flowy and more ambivalent on the inside and harder on the out. Sometimes I don't know until, well, I know. And that can result in casualities, I guess, if I'm not really really careful and attuned to what I'm feeling - and paying attention to that, without repressing it or trying to rationalize it.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  3. #273
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    @cafe - your honesty here, given how badly the trait you are being honest about was framed, is freaking fantastic.
    Meh. I mean, it's an emotion, right? Emotions are, IMO, value-neutral and completely subjective. Some people seem to think feeling and expressing remorse is a big deal. I don't actually give much of a shit about it, I don't think. If a behavior is harmful, I want it to change. If it doesn't change, I can modify my own behavior accordingly. Expressions of remorse just tend to muddy the waters: a change is to be anticipated before it can be seen. So now I've got to wait around for this change before I can modify my behavior. I can and will do it, but being patient is not something I enjoy.

    But thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    is this anything similar to what you are talking about cafe?
    I can't really say if that's it or not. I have no idea if it has anything to do with functions at all and I can only speak for me. I was fed guilt and shame like mother's milk growing up. It was an extremely effective way to modify my behavior because my defenses to it seem to be naturally low. I want so very much to be good. What kind of ended up happening, I think, is that I ended up with a relatively normal Id, An over-developed Super-ego, and an under developed Ego. It makes me really wonky. I can't always tell when I'm being really good, when I'm being really selfish, and when I'm being just normal (whatever the hell that is).

    I've been trying to develop the Ego more and refine the other stuff, but the progress seems to move along like a car on square wheels. Very uneven and sometimes unpredictable even to me. As a result, I've definitely hurt people. And as another result, I focus a lot of my energy on the one relationship where I feel I can be understood and loved anyway and where I understand enough to reduce my potential to hurt. A lot of the rest of the energy goes toward keeping myself functional so that I can meet my obligations at at least a basic level. After that, there isn't much left of me and so there I am very self-indulgent. I'm an extremely inefficient machine.

    I am depressive. I've spent years in that bad place. I've spent months having my happy thought be sticking a knife in myself so it will stop hurting. During those times, I was barely functional. I know that I fed and bathed my kids, that I washed their clothes and that I kept them from hurting themselves. I just really do not remember most of it. It's a haze. I'm pretty sure I didn't do it very well and that I'm lucky they are not really screwed up.

    Once I got on the other side of the worst of it, I analyzed what was going on. This is what I decided: I'm a low-energy person. Physically, I just don't have a lot of energy. There is so much I can do before I wear out and if I try to do more, something else falls off the other end, so to speak. I can function if I accept this. I get done what I get done. What I don't get done isn't going to cause the apocalypse. If I start letting myself feel guilt over what I did not get done, over who I am failing, over what other people are doing that I'm not, that is when I get into real trouble. Big trouble. That is how the depression gets a toe hold. I will not willingly ever let that happen again.

    Guilt/shame/regret/remorse don't serve a particularly functional purpose for me. They are paralyzing to me. When I feel them, it doesn't make me apologize and modify my behavior. They make me fall into a spiral of self-loathing and hide in my misery alone. I haven't figured out how to make them functional, and frankly I'm not motivated to do so any more than I'm motivated to see what wonderful thing might come from sticking my hand in the garbage disposal and turning it on or drinking a tumbler full of drain cleaner.

    I do not know if your ex is anything like this and I didn't read the whole story -- most of these posts are so long and unpleasant -- but if she is, I can see why she would not show remorse to you. I think INFJs tend to be forward focused. When I make decisions, I make them based on what I would like to see happen in the future. If I do not anticipate having or wanting to have a close relationship with someone in the future, they aren't going to factor into my priorities in the same way someone I do anticipate having a close relationship with. IOW, it would be a cold, cold day in hell before I stuck my hand in a running garbage disposal for an ex. An ex is a thing of the past and not a place to invest resources.

    My attitude is kind of that there are six seven billion frigging people on this planet. If my flavor of crazy isn't a poison you enjoy why are we still talking? If there's already an established relationship for whatever reason, yes, I will bang my head against the wall trying to figure out how to make things work, but at the end of the day, sometimes it's just not going to happen. That is sad, but seven billion of us nasty, upright primates. Surely we can move on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    (FYI, your nickname is contributing to the global coffee economy as we speak).
    And your avatar makes me patient with you because I have a huge crush on Tyrion, especially book Tyrion.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #274
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Fe takes feedback and weaves that into a long, circular process of altering one's intentions. it's more about revising expectations (that are not just one's own but a larger network that contextualizes one's desires, what one wants to actualize). it doesn't necessarily set parameters--that's more Ti--to help organize cause and effect relationships in order to take control of specific behaviors in more deliberate ways.

    the only thing that i have to say at this point is that the premise that infjs do not experience remorse really, really angers me. we all accept that Fe pressures a person into considering what others want too much, sometimes exaggeratingly responding to their expectations. to portray this as not caring about how we affect others because we think less in a P, consequential way is to simply not accept us or to equate specific conflicts one has experienced with a condemnation of a whole way of being. the problem is not a typological one; it is one based on listening and the way people can feel when they don't feel listened to or when an interaction goes sour. but, as a type, we still accept the added weight of listening. as such, it seems like this problem has little to do with infj or infp.

    and furthermore, when someone stops listening, there can also be reasons behind it including more sympathetic ones: a need to set healthy boundaries, a realization that they can do nothing to improve the situation at this time, or a feeling that their efforts are not being matched by the other person in the interaction. but also ones we often deem less sympathetic (and perhaps this is unfair): unprocessed grief that is fucking with them, a lack of resources to cope with the situation, various types of fixations or addictions to manage themselves, or self-hatred and an inability to accept themselves let alone the negative experiences of others as they reflect on that other person and on the person who cannot even fully be with their own emotional self. to turn a specific interaction into a typological problem is more useful to show you your own blindspots than to give a fair account of another type.

    i am angered because i know i experience remorse all the damn time. i talk with my infp 4w5 friend (and 3-4 of my closest friends) about my remorse a few times a week. he tries to convince me to accept that i get to be a person too, flawed, who must constantly make what are retroactively seen as mistakes in order to learn lessons. it's simply a process of reflection, and sometimes we're better at it with a little bit of help. but it's only part of how you are responsible for yourself and take accountability for how your actions affect others. and i just don't see myself, whether i'm speaking for other infjs or not, as being the one who is denying this fact. in fact, i appreciate it, because it is the only way in which i can allow myself to let go of the obsessive need to be Fe perfect and allow myself to trust time (the path of experience). in other words, i notice and hold open the possibility that i am missing where others are coming from, that i have not established as detailed of a story as they have (by testing it and establishing clear grounds), and that this leads to a need for humility when i must make more drastic revisions and accept the moment when i see myself and must stay with that disappointment that requires me to grieve an idea of who i was. because i must let go of it, stop grasping an idea of myself, to decisively learn, to decide how i want to explain what has actually happened from my own perspective. this is the p lesson: that every person must take responsibility for the right to assert the final say for themselves in how they explain what has happened. to not tell this story is an absence of responsibility in a crucial way (altho there is an equivalent in the j lesson as well that good faith requires attending to others expectations as well, considering what they mean and not just what you can use from what they've said to explain as you see fit, which i see as the basis for what i am calling "railroading" and is a way of establishing exegetical authority, because it denies that interpretation is happening and prevents the interpretive process for being open to debate).

    my explanation is this: when i observe this thread, i see infjs getting pushed around to absurd lengths in order to accommodate others emotional baggage (when it's clear that they too have their own to deal with) in ways that enable an at times disingenuous discourse. it is what drives me nuts.

  5. #275
    Senior Member _eric_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    It's a specific kind of remorse that I wanted to know about. The kind that comes when you've failed to anticipate negative consequences & failed to prevent them or correct them in a timely manner, largely due to some flaw you have.
    I'll try to think of something along these lines, but it might take a while though, assuming I even can, because a lot of what would fit is really personal stuff that I'd really rather not share with anyone...mostly because it is all in the past and dealt with and I don't want to bring back the pain, I try very hard not to think about those things, especially the worst/most recent ones because they have torn away at me enough as it is and I have shed more than enough tears for them and I'm sick of it and don't want to any more. And I also can't share some of them involving a certain person...even though that person would never know, I still won't say anything about it. I was specifically told not to because that person said they'd feel betrayed, and even if I wasn't told not to, I respect that person enough not to anyways. There is only one VERY specific instance in which I would talk about it [to a single person], assuming the subject was brought up, and assuming the conditions for that situation were to ever occur...that has yet to be seen and it may not ever happen even though I very much hope it will. I don't think talking about it would be absolutely necessary as it would have no bearing on the current [future hypothetical] state, but if asked, I will do it. I will say that the person with whom I feel very deep remorse (which is mutual and just as deep and hurtful on the other end, probably even more so) as mentioned is very much an INFP enneagram 4 though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    This.
    I hope no more of us INFJs post here to slit our necks and wrists to bleed for them so they can discuss among themselves whether our blood is adequate to their purposes. Sorry -- did you want MORE blood? Redder blood? Thicker blood? Let me see where else I make a good cut for you ... is this enough? Are you happy now? Screw you blood sucking, mind-fucking, emotionally deaf and dumb, clueless, neurotic, noodly-headed biatches. Leave us alone. You don't have to like us or approve of us. I would appreciate it if you'd cut the crap, though.
    INFJs, walk away, walk away ... don't look back, just walk away ...
    I think that is going too far...there is enough hostility, assumptions of hostility, and hasty reactions going on. Please don't add more to it, that's not going to help matters.

  6. #276
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    And in some ways it comes down to this: you can't sue for marriage.

    Every relationship begins with the consent, implied or otherwise, of two people. It only takes one person to end the relationship. The second party, unfortunately and unfairly, does not really get a say. It feels bad. It feels wrong. It feels contrary to the way things ought to be.

    In a way, it is wrong. The only way to make it more wrong would to make a person stay in a relationship involuntarily.

    It is okay to be unhappy about this. It is okay to feel cheated. It is okay to grieve and to be angry and to tear up photos or whatever. But at some point, you have to accept that they, for whatever reason, did not want it anymore. And, for good or for ill, it was their choice to make.

    There isn't much they can say that is going to make it a lot better. It is supposed to hurt because something has been ripped away and things have been lost. Futures and dreams have been lost. If it didn't hurt it would be because you were too broken to feel. But the pain generally fades over time and you find some way to drag your new, maimed person onward. Eventually you adapt. It's how humans work and how we survive.

    Looking to the person that maimed you to make the hurt be less is . . . well, I'm not sure it's very effective. Ultimately, we all have to heal ourselves because, in the end, ourselves are all we really have.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #277
    Senior Member _eric_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    And in some ways it comes down to this: you can't sue for marriage.

    Every relationship begins with the consent, implied or otherwise, of two people. It only takes one person to end the relationship. The second party, unfortunately and unfairly, does not really get a say. It feels bad. It feels wrong. It feels contrary to the way things ought to be.

    In a way, it is wrong. The only way to make it more wrong would to make a person stay in a relationship involuntarily.

    It is okay to be unhappy about this. It is okay to feel cheated. It is okay to grieve and to be angry and to tear up photos or whatever. But at some point, you have to accept that they, for whatever reason, did not want it anymore. And, for good or for ill, it was their choice to make.

    There isn't much they can say that is going to make it a lot better. It is supposed to hurt because something has been ripped away and things have been lost. Futures and dreams have been lost. If it didn't hurt it would be because you were too broken to feel. But the pain generally fades over time and you find some way to drag your new, maimed person onward. Eventually you adapt. It's how humans work and how we survive.

    Looking to the person that maimed you to make the hurt be less is . . . well, I'm not sure it's very effective. Ultimately, we all have to heal ourselves because, in the end, ourselves are all we really have.
    Thank you for that, it means a lot... Yeah, I wasn't the one who chose to end it; at least it wasn't because of anything I did or the way I am, I was reassured of that multiple times, though I didn't agree with the reason for it ending. And I'm not looking to that person in order to be hurt less, I agree it isn't effective; I couldn't even if I tried because we don't talk any more, which, again, was not my choice. I have always tried to work through any problems together, I believe there aren't many things that can't be solved given enough effort, but if I am the only one willing to do it then it makes no difference...also, I'm not angry about it, I couldn't possibly be.

  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I do not know if your ex is anything like this and I didn't read the whole story -- most of these posts are so long and unpleasant -- but if she is, I can see why she would not show remorse to you.

    baggage opening warning & disclaimer:

  9. #279
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    How can INFPs and INFJs let this rift between them remain? Must band together against the True Enemy!
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  10. #280
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    my explanation is this: when i observe this thread, i see infjs getting pushed around to absurd lengths in order to accommodate others emotional baggage (when it's clear that they too have their own to deal with) in ways that enable an at times disingenuous discourse. it is what drives me nuts.

    Yes, I see a lot of- what I call Pe bullying, but I don’t know what the hell it is- it just looks to me like people who have no clue how difficult something is making judgments about it cavalierly and feeling rather self righteous in doing so. Or something. I don’t even know. I can only assume they don’t begin to know the buttons they’re pushing- because no one with any sense would push those buttons while simultaneously accusing the very same people of not having remorse (because continuing to push the buttons demonstrates an almost alarming lack of remorse in itself). I’m trying to read it all with a sense of detachment- removing myself from the convo when I feel I’m getting too wound up (there really is something in all this which echoes past bad experiences too closely, but I just can’t put my finger on it)….but it does make me angry when I see TiltyRed’s post, or to see SilkRoad get upset, because I totally understand where it’s coming from.


    Quote Originally Posted by _eric_ View Post
    I think that is going too far...there is enough hostility, assumptions of hostility, and hasty reactions going on. Please don't add more to it, that's not going to help matters.

    One does not simply

    …shush TiltyRed.


    I get that you’re trying to help, but I can see where she’s coming from. I suspect this is something hitting those of us who have been on this forum ride before, it’s something that accumulates and gets more agitating each time it happens. I’m more apt to saying it’s like having someone hold a pillow over our face, then call us ‘childish’ for not being able to breathe- though if I’d actually been reading mane’s posts this time around, I might very well feel as disturbed as TR was when she wrote it.




    ETA:

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I can totally understand this - about the future actions showing the remorse. That's why I was making distinctions between apologies for minor gaffes and things which have builded into larger issues, because an apology in a moment doesn't necessarily mean future change. When I speak of remorse over big things, I don't mean a grand speech. I meant a realization that leads to change. Perhaps this is accompanied by an admittance of wrong & an apology, which I do as as significant in making restitution.

    Tell me, when someone has hurt you or others, and they not only change, but openly admit it & apologize for it, does it not heal some of the past at all? I think most would say "yes", and that's why I included it as a part of the process I hoped to discover existed.
    It depends. Mostly it depends on the person and my past experience of them. I’ve heard very sincere and convincing apologies from people who totally meant it while they were apologizing (it’s convincing because they mean it and seem to understand why their behavior or words caused distress)- but then forget that experience as soon as it no longer suits their purposes. I just don’t think that immediate resolution does much for me anymore, it’s proven too unreliable. If it comes from someone who has been reliable in my past experience with them, then it can be a bit of a relief I suppose to establish a sort of understanding of what to expect- but apologies from people who aren’t particularly reliable are actually more stressful to deal with than no apology at all because then I’ve got a bunch of mixed signals to deal with on top of the conflict at hand.

    I relate to what cascadeco wrote. It seems to me like it isn’t an apology that’s called for so much as a misunderstanding that needs to be cleared up. In fact, I’ve been thinking about it for a couple of days, I can’t think of something- outside of accidents (e.g. ‘I dropped your phone and it broke, I’m so sorry’)- that really calls for an apology; and even then, it’s more about taking responsibility to fix what was broken. To me, it’s far more about making the other side understandable. Some people I’m just not compatible with; sometimes I can hurt someone’s feelings, but talking it out doesn’t help because I can’t get to an understanding where their feelings make any sense to me. I’ll tell them I’m sorry for hurting their feelings, but I can’t especially feel the weight of it I guess if I don’t understand it.

    I honestly can not remember being angry at someone because they haven’t apologized though, unless ‘sorting out misunderstandings’ is what you’re talking about. I can remember being angry at people for doing something to disturb or upset me and then not caring about the negative affect they had, but only those people with who I have established that sort of ‘compatibility’ with in the first place.
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