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  1. #251
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I'm out of this discussion, but wanted to leave on a positive note to tell @PeaceBaby how much I respect your innate desire for diplomacy and unique, important insights. @fidelia and @cascadeco, and others here, I admire because they always go way above and beyond the call of duty to understand how other people think and communicate and try to help wherever they can. I have seen both of you be patient in ways that blow my mind on several occasions. If there is something like karma in this world I hope it results in people doing the same for you. You never expect from others what they expect from you, and you have that deep compassion combined with reason. Those I mentioned here and a few others are a rare few that I could trust as friends. I realize this is off-topic a bit, but I just thought it was important to state publicly after everything.
    Everyone you mentioned above is indeed diplomatic, patient and understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Edit: @Halla74 It would be interesting to hear your perspective on this latest topic in this thread if you happen to have interest and time to kill.
    Good morning Fia, Thanks for bringing this topic to my attention; I appreciate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I'll try to summarize- Mane has stated that the issue he and others in this thread have against INFJs is that they do not think the type expresses remorse.
    Really?
    To that entire argument I say "HORSE SHIT."

    Any argument that states:

    "ALL people OF (any given) TYPE" are "(INSERT STEREOTYPE)" = A petty, biased argument at best, and often BASELESS.

    Such arguments are usually based on (a) ignorance, and (b) emotionally charged past experiences (aka events that casued PAIN and FEAR in their lives of the "HATER").

    As for those who rally at the hater's side, there are no better justifications for such behavior; at best they were slighted in some way by someone in their past and have found a cheap way to get pent up resentment out of their systems, however they might even be so petty as to be exhibiting "pack behavior" or for lack of a better term "bullying."

    A few side notes on this theme amongst humans.

    FIRST:
    Hysteria is a phenomena that is contagious yet has no real physiological cause, the (overbearing, irrational) fear of one person causes similar extreme physiological responses (fainting, vomiting, etc.) in others proximal to them.

    SECOND:
    I argue that angry mobs are similarly motivated. Ask any poor soul who was publicly accused of withcraft over the last few centuries how they were treated. Usually burned at the stake, drowned in lakes, stoned to death - or some other horrid, painful death. NOW THEN - How many of the (deceased) accused ACTUALLY posed a THREAT to their communities? NONE. Because WITHCRAFT ISN'T REAL - and NEITHER ARE STEREOTYPES.

    THIRD:
    I hope everyone here is smart enough to realize that HATRED is not a FAMILY VALUE; neither is HATRED a good thing to PROPOGATE in ONLINE COMMUNITIES.

    FOURTH & FINAL:
    I offer two quips of wisdom that I learned from my Father that apply to situations like these:

    (A) "Who is more foolish, the FOOL or THOSE WHO FOLLOW THEM?"
    and
    (B) "Never argue with an IDIOT; they will DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL and BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE."

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    He is an ENTP with an INFJ ex who didn't express remorse and considers that he needs to have the INFJs here express remorse to demonstrate that it is possible for the type.
    DISCLAIMER: I have nothing against Mane. Mane and I have conversed in a number of threads, he seems like a very smart fellow and is a good writer.

    (1) Mane's INFJ ex-wife is NOT representative of all INFJs in this world - PERIOD.

    (2) To those who have similar feelings as Mane, I'll wager that few of them actually knew the MBTI-type of whatever individual was in their opinion "unable to express remorse."

    (3) MBTI-type is no ironclad indicator of how any person will behave, what they think, what they feel - or what they believe.

    (4) The concept that if every INFJ on this forum were to demonstrate to Mane that they could express remorse serving as a valid indicator that all INFJs in this world are capable of expressing remorse, is for lack of a better term "statistical hogwash."

    (5) The concept of using the behaviors of ANY (extremely small) GROUP of people to serve as a PROXY for a MUCH LARGER GROUP of such said people is RIDICULOUS.

    (6) I know Mane paid the price of much blood, sweat and tears going through the divorce with his ex-wife. I remember that she would not allow him to see his Step-Son after the divorce. Both of these evnts are sad. So far as divorces go, few are ever easy; most are laden with pain. All too often the children of the divorcing family are used as pawns to harm the other spouse. That is cruel, reckless, and selfish. The way interpersonal relationships work (even romantic ones) is pretty simple - "it takes two to tango." It is rare that one person can hold all the blame, or all the praise for making or breaking any relationship.

    (7) Dealing with PAIN in life is NEVER EASY. However, it is IMPORTANT to learn that allowing past painful experiences to exist as EMOTIONAL BAGGAGE is simply bad for YOU and OTHER PEOPLE you will meet and work with over the course of your life. IMHO, it is best to learn from such things, and let them go. Move on, and become a better person from it all.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Many have both before and after his request.
    Understood.
    I didn't read any of this thread before your mentioning me and providing a summary.
    I didn't need to, what I wrote above holds true for a majority of arguments similar to this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    You can see the exchanges which are pretty extensive.
    I'll take your word for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I know your wife is an INFJ and thought you would have interesting input.
    Yes, you are correct, my wife is an INFJ.
    My Mother is an INFJ.
    My high school sweetheart is an ENFJ.
    My girlfriend in college is an INFJ.
    Also, I know many INFJs on this forum.
    I cannot say that any of the INFJs I know are unable to express remorse.
    Finally, even if one or more of them did ever exhibit such behavior, I would not be so brash as to assign that incident as a hallmark negative behavior of all INFJs worldwide.

    I hope my commentary was helpful.
    Again, I have nothing against anyone in this thread, but I do not like stereotyping at all.



    -Halla74
    --------------------
    Type Stats:
    MBTI -> (E) 77.14% | (i) 22.86% ; (S) 60% | (n) 40% ; (T) 72.22% | (f) 27.78% ; (P) 51.43% | (j) 48.57%
    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

    Quotes:
    "If somebody asks your MBTI type on a first date, run". -Donna Cecilia
    "Enneagram is psychological underpinnings. Cognitive Functions are mental reasoning and perceptional processes. -Sanjuro

  2. #252
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Thank you @Halla74, really well articulated, better than I could have done on any day.

    I kind of wanted to respond to the OP, but also feel compelled to stick up for INFJ's now. So I'm going to give an honest review of the relationships I've had with them. I've never been close to an INFJ, one reason being that there aren't too many of them. The second being that I don't really understand them. I've worked with a couple and really enjoyed it. Since I'm in nursing, they have seemed to get frazzled quick, because a lot of times we can't get to all the things we would like to for our patients. They tend to have an emotional and soft appearance about them. Their caring can't be matched. Even after working for years and years in the field, they don't desensitize. So this is the type for ultimate unconditional compassion. They will work right through their breaks. Usually they are friendlier and less abrasive than my other cohorts. (Not that my cohorts are abrasive, but have tougher skins.)

    There isn't anything they do that "drives me nuts" because I'm not close enough to one to notice these things. However, between IRL and the forum, something about them is really confuddling to me. Can't tell if it's their communication style or their thought processes or their body language or just a multitude of things. I am pretty insightful with most people but I have trouble getting a good read on them. It may be because they are doing the functional opposite thing (like enfj's and stp's.) There are a few forum exceptions to this rule.

    So basically my only trouble is I don't understand. It would help me to hear more about them. (Maybe I should actually go around to some of the INFJ threads on this site.)
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  3. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Really?
    take it for what's a red herring can be worth.

    but of actual value:
    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Yes, you are correct, my wife is an INFJ.
    My Mother is an INFJ.
    My high school sweetheart is an ENFJ.
    My girlfriend in college is an INFJ.
    Also, I know many INFJs on this forum.
    I cannot say that any of the INFJs I know are unable to express remorse.
    Finally, even if one or more of them did ever exhibit such behavior, I would not be so brash as to assign that incident as a hallmark negative behavior of all INFJs worldwide.

    I hope my commentary was helpful.
    Again, I have nothing against anyone in this thread, but I do not like stereotyping at all.



    -Halla74
    that's a large number of INFJs - you can't say that any of them are unable too, but can you think of and share examples of the ones who have?

  4. #254
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    Thank you @Halla74, really well articulated, better than I could have done on any day.
    You're welcome Shortnsweet, and thank you too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    take it for what's a red herring can be worth.
    Hello, Mane.
    It is not possible to dismiss several concrete examples with a single, vague sentence.
    That is an entry-level debating tactic that is not effective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    but of actual value:

    that's a large number of INFJs - you can't say that any of them are unable too, but can you think of and share examples of the ones who have?
    Not that its any of your business, but yes, I can:

    (1) My wife (profoundly) expressed remorse to me years ago when she realized that for a large part of the early years of our relationship her anxiety disorder caused her to be distant, and at times act unkindly toward me.
    (2) My Mother expressed remorse after being engaged in a massive argument with her sister, my Aunt, for many years.
    (3) My high school sweetheart expressed massive amounts of remorse after being unfaithful.
    (4) My college girlfriend expressed remorse to me after she broke a small table I made for her with a hammer because she was very mad at me at one point.

    Whether the information above compels you to change your position is up to you.
    I've done what I can to enlighten you.
    My work here is done.

    Cheers, and Happy New Year to you.



    -Halla74
    --------------------
    Type Stats:
    MBTI -> (E) 77.14% | (i) 22.86% ; (S) 60% | (n) 40% ; (T) 72.22% | (f) 27.78% ; (P) 51.43% | (j) 48.57%
    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

    Quotes:
    "If somebody asks your MBTI type on a first date, run". -Donna Cecilia
    "Enneagram is psychological underpinnings. Cognitive Functions are mental reasoning and perceptional processes. -Sanjuro

  5. #255
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled
    This was more what I wanted to see. Everyday apologies over social gaffes & failure to be polite is not really my idea of remorse either.
    Well how lovely that it's not your idea of remorse. Does everyone need to experience feelings in the way that you do? What if I don't view it as a 'failure to be polite' but I actually really did think it was unfair of me to not explain things to the other person, to not initially divulge because of my own crabbiness and pain, and to just leave them hanging?

    More often than not, such apologies & adjustments in behavior to prevent future offense benefits the INFJ (or whoever) as much as the people they've offended. Most of time, such offenses were not due to selfishness or true thoughtlessness, and their damage was minimal.
    See, I'm of the opinion that the small things build up; that an unacknowledged minor gaffe can cause a reaction or assumption made by the other. This reaction or assumption then feeds into that persons' view of me, whether consciously or not. Then that person may in the future make a choice or do something based on that initial assumption. Then I react to that. And it goes on and on, and then the entire relationship after all of these cause and effects and such eventually gets to a place where it's a really bad spot... all because it started off on one little gaffe that went unacknowledged.

    Now it may be that this is ME, this is how I process and view things, that it has no bearing on your world or how you process. And maybe how you filter things has little to no bearing on my world and how I navigate it - therefore for you to expect me to show the same processing of emotions, or whatnot, is from my perspective you wanting me to be more like you.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    (1) My wife (profoundly) expressed remorse to me years ago when she realized that for a large part of the early years of our relationship her anxiety disorder caused her to be distant, and at times act unkindly toward me.
    (2) My Mother expressed remorse after being engaged in a massive argument with her sister, my Aunt, for many years.
    (3) My high school sweetheart expressed massive amounts of remorse after being unfaithful.
    (4) My college girlfriend expressed remorse to me after she broke a small table I made for her with a hammer because she was very mad at me at one point.

    Whether the information above compels you to change your position is up to you.
    I've done what I can to enlighten you.
    My work here is done.

    Cheers, and Happy New Year to you.



    -Halla74
    a few INFJs paved the way, but yes, those accounts help to change my position a great deal actually.

    all in all, knowing my suspicion was wrong is very comforting.

  7. #257
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    @OrangeAppled
    i realize it might feel like i joined in only to use your posts and those of others and then abandon the side in an argument, which.. is pretty much the case, so i suppose it feels like it is. but there's a larger point to be made:

    i think i've gotten the hang of Fe in FJs, and IxFJs in particular - to understand that "impolite/inappropriate" behavior, or rather, the act of making people feel uncomfortable, is really something many of them seem to experience as.. hard to explain, almost an emotional violation of sorts - as something very hurtful. that's why for them, cases of remorse that seemed inline with that do have substance, even if it was relatively little things, the substance still holds.
    then you have halla's accounts that are a lot more substantial. it takes a lot for an Fe user to think of themselves in those terms. "i wasn't being cruel to my spouse", "i was being disloyal", etc', and those are INFJs who pulled through into seen themselves in that light and feeling bad about it and expressed it, placed themselves in a humiliating admitting it to someone whose opinion of them they probably cared a great deal about. it holds onto the essence of what remorse is.

    this should be really comforting news for two huge reasons:

    the general: social. lowering the shield means more connections can be made with more people which means a richer pool for what each person can bring to your life (well, probably not the ones to whom i was being an asshole here, but in general).

    the specific: hope. mental problems can be treated or at least be made aware of, self esteem issues can be outgrown, deep emotional issues can be resolved, trauma can be dealt with, in fact almost every other possible cause for those patterns is something that is at least somewhat flexible. MBTI type doesn't change.

  8. #258
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    a few INFJs paved the way, but yes, those accounts help to change my position a great deal actually.
    Cool deal.

    We've all been targeted by stereotypes at some point in our lives, and most of the time the experience is not pleasant.

    That is why I feel it is not only in our own best interest, but that of the greater good, if all people try to understand the basis of such feelings that they might find themselves harboring at a given time, before harming their relations with others.

    All of us most likely wish to be given a fair chance by others, and the best way to do that (from my own life experience) is to extend that same courtesy to those you meet along the way of your life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    all in all, knowing my suspicion was wrong is very comforting.
    I know and understand this feeling all too well.
    It took me a very long time to develop my feelings, and my ability to trust my intuition.
    That path was deep and plentiful with many humbling and (to be honest) socially awkward experiences.
    We're all work in progress.
    We all have something to teach others, and also have much to learn from others.
    I enjoy my part in both sides of human learning experiences, and each year find out that I know alot less than I thought I did the year before.

    Take care, Bro.



    -Halla74
    --------------------
    Type Stats:
    MBTI -> (E) 77.14% | (i) 22.86% ; (S) 60% | (n) 40% ; (T) 72.22% | (f) 27.78% ; (P) 51.43% | (j) 48.57%
    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

    Quotes:
    "If somebody asks your MBTI type on a first date, run". -Donna Cecilia
    "Enneagram is psychological underpinnings. Cognitive Functions are mental reasoning and perceptional processes. -Sanjuro

  9. #259
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    After a long and careful consideration, I believe this best summarizes the only possible outcome for INFJ's

    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  10. #260
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    It would be preferable to reading some of these damn threads, that's for sure.

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