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  1. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    If you're looking for INFJs to outline their specific personal shortcomings with people they have been close to, I don't think you're going to get that unless you are in their most trusted inner circle. It's not a matter of not admitting to fault, but rather than it is private information that is neither appropriate or relevant to share with a wide audience. I think you might find that INFJs are willing to share personal slices of their life when they are more emotionally distanced from them or if they can see a specific purpose in doing so. Your approach here is unlikely to elicit interest in opening up, as it appears that you are personally trying to visit the sins of your INFJ on complete strangers. It's like comparing apples to oranges.
    which would make sense, except i've being in a couple of those circles for years and find it remarkable in retrospect that i've never seen that, and then i came here and met other people who've being in the various circles of INFJs from their own lives and have never seen that, and now i see a thread full of INFPs speaking about being in those inner circles and never seen that... and i've never known anyone who has. can you see where i am coming from? wouldn't you find it the slightest bit remarkable? the specific actions of each are unique for each case, but the lack of remorse is persistent.

    and if fia or anyone else was to follow her intentions and points out examples where they - as she stated she has - have experienced and acted out of experiencing remorse, in this thread or anywhere, it would have being a huge boulder off my shoulders, but instead she pointed out an example where she acted out against a notion of remorse.

    all i want is one example.

    people have asked for that in return, and i don't think its reasonable to expect that i should betray the privacy of friends and family and people i've known from various types, but my own privacy is my own to betray. and you know what it took me to find an ENTP's expression of remorse? writing "sorry" in my gmail's search box.

    was posting it easy? ofcourse not, but if i can get one, just one example of an INFJ showing remorse, it would be wroth while.

    for me? it might not redeem my wife, but it would be a huge step towards trying to forgive her internally, and at the very least, i would be able to trust some people (whose company i enjoy very much) further then i can throw them. that alone would be worth the former gut-spilling.

  2. #232
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    @ INFJ's in thread:
    @Mane needs Si data points for processing purposes.

    That's why he's asking for them and what he's asking for, despite their irrelevance in your eyes.

    He needs to hear your story.

    Then, each experience that gets shared has the potential to help him come to terms with the context of his own issues. And can help him move on.

    Provide a kind of clarity, as it were.

    With Si as the inferior function, he needs a lot of them to come up with fairly reliable conclusions to generate order from the chaos of his individual experience.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  3. #233
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    all i want is one example.
    Yesterday I responded to a note someone sent me. I responded in two sentences, saying I may be off the radar for a little while, but didn't give explanation.

    15 minutes later, after getting a very quick 'see ya' response back, I realized how I may have come across. I may have totally misread it and this person may have been totally a-ok with what I'd written, but I wasn't sure, and I also felt bad. So I then apologized for being brusque, wrote a bit more, and I think we reached understanding.

    There ya go.
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  4. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Yesterday I responded to a note someone sent me. I responded in two sentences, saying I may be off the radar for a little while, but didn't give explanation.

    15 minutes later, after getting a very quick 'see ya' response back, I realized how I may have come across. I may have totally misread it and this person may have been totally a-ok with what I'd written, but I wasn't sure, and I also felt bad. So I then apologized for being brusque, wrote a bit more, and I think we reached understanding.

    There ya go.



    thank you.

  5. #235
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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    @Mane

    Once in ventrilo we were reading from The Book of Questions and @LEGERdeMAIN offered up a response that I thought was completely for humor/shock value and I chided him out loud and asked him not to troll us. He was offended by that accusation and I realized it was totally wrong of me to presume that he was being unserious or without sincere sentiment. I felt remorse for scolding him like that and I recognized it as one of the ways I can be an annoying INFJ with directive approach and know-it-all notions. Expressing the true remorse I felt, I described how I was wrong and apologized to him and to those in vent who were present.
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  6. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    @Mane

    Once in ventrilo we were reading from The Book of Questions and @LEGERdeMAIN offered up a response that I thought was completely for humor/shock value and I chided him out loud and asked him not to troll us. He was offended by that accusation and I realized it was totally wrong of me to presume that he was being unserious or without sincere sentiment. I felt remorse for scolding him like that and I recognized it as one of the ways I can be an annoying INFJ with directive approach and know-it-all notions. Expressing the true remorse I felt, I described how I was wrong and apologized to him and to those in vent who were present.

  7. #237
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I am thinking more and more about Ni vs Si in these threads too. This thread has been on my mind a lot over the last few days.

    There's a reason a whack of INFP's in one place share a whole bunch of individual stories. Not because we think we are special snowflakes, but because they help us gain a better understanding of ourselves and the stories of our own lives. Those stories form a web from which we can extrapolate patterns and try to reasonably predict the future. Additionally, in the sharing of those stories, we can fact-check our own conclusions and adjust them as necessary. Additionally, since we don't meet many Fi doms in the course of our existence, we can feel the resonance that only comes from Fi truthiness experiences shared out loud.

    So, INFP's already see OA's post as one story, not any kind of global conclusion over the INFJ type, and when she shares we will share our own experiences in return. A collective of "what feels right" thus starts to weave into that web mentioned above, and we all feel it out as it gets built to see what feels more true and more false. We already know that some people may stretch their truth. But stories shared out loud will ring other Fi dom's truth-o-meters too and this is another form of fact-checking we can do. And the more data that accumulates ensures that one person's story doesn't get as much opportunity to overly influence the final result. A final result may never even materialize as the web increases in scope and complexity. It only gets refined.

    All that's needed to throw it all off though is someone coming in and saying, "Your experience is invalid" or "Your feelings are irrelevant". Because truth is by degrees, subjectivity is by degrees and we all instinctively know this, and feelings matter - no matter what the facts may be. The black and white of right vs wrong risks sending the whole process of our creation awry. Our feelings can never process to their resolution either because they get trapped and stunted in the course of their life cycle. It's why, in these kinds of threads, when someone asks us for what we see but discounts it as inaccurate, we push against that so hard or simply shut down. We already don't think we are right, we already assume subjectivity. We just think we matter too. That our data matters as much as anyone else's experience.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #238
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    This thread is like a photo album to me. You sit down with a friend one afternoon who's never met your family. You leaf through the pages, and she says, "Oh, is that your Mom? You can see the family resemblance!" But you feel annoyed when she says that, because you don't look like your Mom, you don't want to look like her either and somehow, agreeing that you look like your Mom might mean that you possess all of the undesirable qualities of your Mom too.

    Does agreeing with any of OA's list feel like saying, "Yes, I look like my Mom" here?? Because if you agree you do look a little alike, does it feel like you're somehow agreeing with the whole package? And you can't align with a package that doesn't represent how you, as a person, are so much more than someone else's interpretation of a family resemblance? After all, you aren't your Mom.

    As an INFP, I do roll my eyes at how people interpret my type, but I see little grains of truth in it, even in people I consider type outliers, and even if I don't like it. I have to admit to it now because I have stored up too much Si data that backs up the assertion.

    I think us INFP's kind of think the INFJ's will sift through the memory banks to find that data too, but we don't realize or remember that Ni doms don't build a web like we do with Si, you look at the model of the web and try to maintain the purity of that with Ni or create a new paradigm that fits the information you have at your disposal. "Screw making a web - there's probably a better model anyway!" says Ni!

    Does that (or the previous post) resonate with anyone? Thoughts very welcome in this attempted verbalization of my feelings on the matter.

    Those are my best ideas on this over the last little bit; hope they are illuminating somehow to the whole discussion and explain how these threads somehow get off track.

    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #239
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I'm out of this discussion, but wanted to leave on a positive note to tell @PeaceBaby how much I respect your innate desire for diplomacy and unique, important insights. @fidelia and @cascadeco, and others here, I admire because they always go way above and beyond the call of duty to understand how other people think and communicate and try to help wherever they can. I have seen both of you be patient in ways that blow my mind on several occasions. If there is something like karma in this world I hope it results in people doing the same for you. You never expect from others what they expect from you, and you have that deep compassion combined with reason. Those I mentioned here and a few others are a rare few that I could trust as friends. I realize this is off-topic a bit, but I just thought it was important to state publicly after everything.

    Edit: @Halla74 It would be interesting to hear your perspective on this latest topic in this thread if you happen to have interest and time to kill. I'll try to summarize- Mane has stated that the issue he and others in this thread have against INFJs is that they do not think the type expresses remorse. He is an ENTP with an INFJ ex who didn't express remorse and considers that he needs to have the INFJs here express remorse to demonstrate that it is possible for the type. Many have both before and after his request. You can see the exchanges which are pretty extensive. I know your wife is an INFJ and thought you would have interesting input.
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  10. #240
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Does agreeing with any of OA's list feel like saying, "Yes, I look like my Mom" here?? Because if you agree you do look a little alike, does it feel like you're somehow agreeing with the whole package? And you can't align with a package that doesn't represent how you, as a person, are so much more than someone else's interpretation of a family resemblance? After all, you aren't your Mom.
    For myself, I can't 'agree' with the list because I look at every item in the list and like I said in an earlier post, I can think of one item that applies to one INFJ I know, another couple that apply to another, but some/many items wouldn't even enter these infjs' element of being. I look at the same list and this item here -

    3. They will not take personal responsibility* for any problem in their life ... they are always blaming something outside themselves.

    - rings out loud and clear as being something that I see very much in an INFP I know, as well as countless people of various types, so much so that I can't be around these people, listening to the incessant repeats of the same complaints and woes for years and years without them changing a thing about their situation.

    So when I see lists like these, I always feel they're more a product of Individuals and their own issues/hangups - not a Type as a whole. It's also why I wouldn't create a list for INFP's, based on the two or three that I know, because while there are commonalities, the hangups differ and one is quite different from another.

    So for me, lists end up being rather unuseful, because in the end, even if certain trends may exist, I can't ever apply a Trend to an Individual, because individuals differ in striking ways outside of the borders of mbti. But I also know that there's a large chunk of people who find great use and utility in looking at things in the List/story way, and compiling trends, and those trends maybe being useful to apply to a Type in general. It is just unuseful for me - but maybe it's unfair of me to think it's unuseful for others or shouldn't be applied by others.

    I think any pushback or not 'agreeing' on a List has more to do with not understanding how some of the items are universally applicable to infj's, esp. in the context of the same things being able to be demonstrated by numerous other types.

    I think us INFP's kind of think the INFJ's will sift through the memory banks to find that data too, but we don't realize or remember that Ni doms don't build a web like we do with Si, you look at the model of the web and try to maintain the purity of that with Ni or create a new paradigm that fits the information you have at your disposal. "Screw making a web - there's probably a better model anyway!" says Ni!
    The thing is, is I have a pretty abysmal memory recall, so I really don't know that I have 'data' in the sense that you do. So that makes me a) a poor story-teller, and b) a poor recaller/reteller of past events. [and had I not actually had a situation happen to me yesterday that fit Mane's inquiry, I honestly don't think I could have come up with an example, because I just don't remember the specifics of much of anything.... I know that I DO apologize and etc, in many cases, but I wouldn't be able to come up with a concrete example unless it happened really really recently.] I think I tend to take the 'gist' of everything in my past, and also project/predict likely unfoldings based on what is NOW before me. It's a shifting template, if you will. Or it's a multitude of interconnected templates.... mbti is WAY too simplistic for me, in most cases.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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