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  1. #221
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i suppose you mean this:


    honestly no, it's not. from an outside perspective, it is incredibly general and you aren't taking responsibility for anything specific you've done
    Good heavens, what specifically HAS she done? Does she need to apologize for her very existence and the fact that she processes and thinks in certain ways?
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I can provide you a very specific incident or two fairly recently where I have hurt someone in my life and offered them my remorse. But I am not sure if there is any point. I don't think you're going to accept any remorse from INFJs as valid in this thread. HOwever, let me know if you want to hear the examples.
    yes, that would probably be a much better approach.

  3. #223
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    oh wow... what the fuck? seriously!

    because ted bundy was a white dude does that mean that I get to wander up to any white dude I see and demand an apology for his type's crimes against my gender? does that make all white men liars?

    or perhaps I should apologize to a few members of this site who had bad past experiences with alcoholics because I'm a recovering one myself and you know that we're all liars, so why not just demand it from me?

    and I'd really like an apology from the black members of this site to make up for the dude who hit my parked car a couple of years ago... that makes sense... right?

    seriously @Mane... listen to yourself, you're illustrating my point that typism is akin to racism... these ladies never did a fucking thing to you so why take it out on them? buy a speed bag if you need something to take your frustration out on, don't do it to people who haven't even met you
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Good heavens, what specifically HAS she done?
    i don't know that she did anything before that point, i wasn't following her every single word or anyone's every word throughout the thread (i mean this is a really long thread), which is why i am entirely open and hopeful to the possibility someone has expressed remorse throughout this thread which she says to have seen and done, and is a lot more likely to remember it and where it was since she is the one who saw it and did it thus the memory would be in her head not mine. its entirely possible that she had nothing to show remorse for, in which case her statement that it was an expression of remorse would still be wrong. i was stating that it didn't make sense as remorse since she then went on to do the exact same thing she claimed to be feeling remorseful for.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Does she need to apologize for her very existence and the fact that she processes and thinks in certain ways?
    i really hope that's not the case, i don't know if you noticed, but examples breaking the pattern between "processing and thinking in those certain ways" and an incapacity to show remorse are exactly what i am asking for.

    what i was sating to began with was that the assumption that it - and critical elements of it - isn't there, is very strongly present throughout the critique INFJs have recieved throughout the thread, a conclusion which i wasn't a 100% sure about as the engulfing pattern, but since i jumped in i received PMs confirming that it was indeed the base assumption. i am coming forward and asking to show it isn't true.

    how can i explain this in any more obvious terms? ladies, i've noticed people have being saying you can't walk, if you know it to be wrong, please, just show us, get off the freaking wheelchair.

  5. #225
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    what i was sating to began with was that the assumption that it - and critical elements of it - isn't there, is very strongly present throughout the critique INFJs have recieved throughout the thread, a conclusion which i wasn't a 100% sure about as the engulfing pattern, but since i jumped in i received PMs confirming that it was indeed the base assumption. i am coming forward and asking to show it isn't true.
    To the bolded, I'd be equally interested in seeing the evidence and proof that the other 15 types do all show remorse in a way that apparently infj's do not. I mean, it seems reasonable, given that you're asking infj's to disprove your assertion that infj's don't show remorse.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    because ted bundy was a white dude does that mean that I get to wander up to any white dude I see and demand an apology for his type's crimes against my gender?
    yea that's totally the same, except nobody is asking them to show remorse for what someone else did, i'm asking them to give examples of remorse for something they did.

    and in taking the metaphor from a different direction: finding a white guy who isn't a rapist or a black guy who didn't hit anyone's parked car are extremely easy. it should likewise be easy to find an INFJ who has experienced and expressed remorse for various actions that they themselves did and felt bad about - like any normal human being - should be extremely easy.

  7. #227
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Mane, I'm sorry that you had a bad experience with someone you cared for tremendously and got burned both financially and emotionally.

    However, my taking responsibility for her actions wouldn't solve a thing and what's more, it would be inauthentic coming from me because I don't feel responsible for the decisions all people of my type make.

    While each type may express unhealthy behaviours in a way more typical of their type, it does not mean that those behaviours define the type. When I first came here I was in the throes of a breakup with someone I had cared tremendously for and who was acting very uncharacteristically of his former self. EJCC's Ask an ESTJ thread was tremendously helpful for me to understand the thinking patterns of that type and typical ways that they might communicate. Ultimately, I had to conclude that his behaviour was not so much the result of being an ESTJ, but rather that it was the result of his individual experiences and choices expressed in a ESTJ style, but not typical of all ESTJs.

    Any of those helpful ESTJs apologizing for the loose ends he left untied or the questions I still had still couldn't possibly help me resolve my own conflicted feelings simply because they weren't him! Of course I didn't want to feel that my judgement was that poor, or that he hadn't cared for me, or that the traits I liked in him were just a facade and so it was tempting to try to understand the type, in hopes of understanding him and explaining away some of the things I didn't like with new context or more information.

    The only thing that's given perspective for me is more time and distance, which allow me to see our interactions with more clarity. I can see what drew me to him, why he couldn't get emotionally close although he wanted to, why I entered a relationship that I could have foretold the outcome of fairly easily from the start, and appreciate the good things, while still recognizing some destructive patterns that had developed and which wouldn't have made it a sustainable relationship. I don't think there's any way to skip over that process and the longer the relationship has been and deeper it was, the longer it will take to sort all that out.

    If you're looking for INFJs to outline their specific personal shortcomings with people they have been close to, I don't think you're going to get that unless you are in their most trusted inner circle. It's not a matter of not admitting to fault, but rather than it is private information that is neither appropriate or relevant to share with a wide audience. I think you might find that INFJs are willing to share personal slices of their life when they are more emotionally distanced from them or if they can see a specific purpose in doing so. Your approach here is unlikely to elicit interest in opening up, as it appears that you are personally trying to visit the sins of your INFJ on complete strangers. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    To the bolded, I'd be equally interested in seeing the evidence and proof that the other 15 types do all show remorse in a way that apparently infj's do not. I mean, it seems reasonable, given that you're asking infj's to disprove your assertion that infj's don't show remorse.
    i wouldn't call 'reasonable' because that's 14 types that i'm not one of, meaning their incidents of remorse aren't my own personal mistakes to be open about. for me it's as easy enough, a few month back in my email, but here's a letter of apology i wrote to my exwife (warning: extensively long and personal, and unrelated to the topic).


  9. #229
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    yea that's totally the same, except nobody is asking them to show remorse for what someone else did, i'm asking them to give examples of remorse for something they did.

    and in taking the metaphor from a different direction: finding a white guy who isn't a rapist or a black guy who didn't hit anyone's parked car are extremely easy. it should likewise be easy to find an INFJ who has experienced and expressed remorse for various actions that they themselves did and felt bad about - like any normal human being - should be extremely easy.
    how about my middle example... I noticed that you left that one out... is it because it's incredibly hard to find an alcoholic who ISN'T a liar when they're in drinking mode?

    and does this mean that I have to apologize to everyone?

    they are not the same person so what's the use of clumping them together into the same category? mbti type isn't a be all, end all... you can't say that just because someone is of a certain type according to a test that they took that they have much in common with anyone else who tests the same at all... life circumstances and upbringing and things of that sort have a MUCH greater play into what sort of person someone is
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  10. #230
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i wouldn't call 'reasonable' because that's 14 types that i'm not one of, meaning their incidents of remorse aren't my own personal mistakes to be open about. for me it's as easy enough, a few month back in my email, but here's a letter of apology i wrote to my exwife (warning: extensively long and personal, and unrelated to the topic).
    Well, it seemed reasonable to me, since you had said more than once that INFJ's were the only type you've never experienced remorse from. Therefore, I thought since this was the basis for you honing in on INFJ's and their lack of remorse (contrasting with all other types you've experienced), that it would be helpful for you to explain how all other types differ from the infj. Because, I am wondering if it is tied to how it is expressed or processed.

    At the same time, I knew that my request was ridiculous and insurmountable; but, to be honest your request of 'us infj's' seems just as ridiculous from my perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane
    i dont know if it can be stated about all NFs, i've seen xNFPs and suspected ENFJs do all of those... as for all NTs, SPs and SJs. INFJs are the only type who i have never witnessed any sign of experiencing remorse.
    I can tell you right off the bat that I found your utter dismassal of @fia's expression pretty, well, telling. You can wrap up your rationale behind that in all of the 'rationale' and 'logic' that you like, but the fact remains that you do not acknowledge her words on the matter as relevant, or 'true'. Do you think that she or others will be likely to try to express their true thoughts to you in the future, given how you responded to that true thought?

    But to be honest this goes beyond just this thread; I am not going to bare my soul to anonymous lurkers of the net in this thread, about my true feelings and expressions of sadness and regret. Most especially when what I post would be held under a microscope, and when I feel that it makes no difference whether I post examples of apologies, as there will be those who don't view my examples as such, and those that do. I can't possibly hope to 'prove' anything from it. Just as other people who post examples of their remorse may not seem very remorseful to ME, but they may seem it to 95% of everyone else.

    So I'm pretty content allowing everyone to have whatever impression or beliefs they have about me - most especially in the context of the internet.

    However, I commend you for sharing so openly your letter of apology; your vulnerability and sadness and hurt and desire for understanding and re-connection at that time is evident. It sounds like a sad story indeed. I'm also sorry you went through a period of blaming yourself for everything. That...sucks. It's never just one person, it's always the combination of two people that make or break a relationship. One person can try, and try, and try, but it isn't going to do a bit of good if the other person doesn't put in just as much effort out of love and caring. It's always the combination of people...actions, reactions, assumptions, misunderstandings, all building upon one another, such that over time things can erode. I don't think any combination of people is immune to this. It takes a lot of openness and trust.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

    My Photography and Watercolor Fine Art Prints!!! Cascade Colors Fine Art Prints
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