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  1. #211
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    yeah, "only smart men can see the king's new clothes". sarcasm regarding pre-framing aside, i believe that this is all in all likely that they do, it's even possible that the problem is in the communication line. i just think that this is the common thread combining and summarizing all the complaints made about INFJs, from soft to harsh, from the story of the domineering INFJ up all the way to OAs post, it links everything together.

    and if you are wondering my reason for butting in, despite sociologically seeming like a terrible idea given past interactions: I WANT TO SEE IT. it would in fact mean a great deal for me.

    so please, any specific examples of an INFJ showing remorse...
    I expressed it in a quote response to you. Are you dismissing that? There are others, but if the recent and direct ones don't register, then I'm not sure the time investment to look through the posts would be worthwhile. Would you have the time and interest to show links to other types expressing remorse on this forum or in this thread? That would be useful as well. No rush because I may not be posting in the thread for a little while.
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  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    Good to see you liked it. I am not 100% sure though on which part are you referring to as inconsistent either. What is wrong with the bolded items oh enlightened one?

    I was implying that we cannot be defeated in open combat yet the opposition refuses to concede and continues to fight. A futile struggle. I refuse to think that I am the only INFP who excels at both circular reasoning and an inability to spot well-reasoned arguments. In the spirit of the person who first chimed "ignorance is bliss" I declare the above a truly great strength, an impregnable shield and a brutal sword. There is after all no way to knock us out of the conflict save for power cuts or mass bans so really it comes down to the point where we stop arguing because we are bored and want to do something else.
    I have to briefly return from a self-imposed exile to agree with your statements. Everything you are saying here gets to the crux of what it's like to be an INFP. It would literally be impossible to understand INFP behavior without having a firm grasp on these things.

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I expressed it in a quote response to you. Are you dismissing that?
    i suppose you mean this:
    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I suppose now is as good a time as any to just say that I absolutely feel remorse for any frustration of negativity I have contributed to this discussion or any other on the forum. I feel remorse for every time I have caused people pain in my life, and noted earlier that this has tended to happen when I experience depression because the overwhelm of emotion results in a more self-centered mindset that cannot operate with a meaningful level of empathy.
    honestly no, it's not. from an outside perspective, it is incredibly general and you aren't taking responsibility for anything specific you've done - while at the time of the writing it was possible that it came from a place of genuine remorse, a generalization that stems from a deep understanding of an assortment of points at which you acknowledge you have caused frustration and have collected into one apology, the lack of examples of any actual action, deed or behavior which you where acknowledging, and the fact the entire expression was limited to the statement "i feel remorse", made the more obvious interpretation a lot more likely, that being that the topic at hand gave you the opportunity to place a "just in case" disclaimer which could help you avoid and sooth down any future hostility with the people you've argued with.

    at the time i didn't know, so i just kept on asking for specific examples. ofcourse, i say "at the time" for a reason. how long ago would you have to remember a time where someone negotiating through pre-framing you between the hammer and the anvil was a cause of frustration? "if you don't admit it it proves the point" statement rings a bell? the famous OA's list perhaps? we're talking a few days, and within the context of this conversation.

    yet, with the recent memory of a simple social tool causing you frustration, you have just being rad handed caught trying (Failing) to utilize the exact same tool with me - a.k.a. the emperor's new clothes reference. what kind of remorse can this possibly be if you are choosing to do the very thing you have just expressed remorse? if this was truly a remorse from a deep understanding of an assortment of things you have just done which have caused consequences to the feelings of others you did not want, a.k.a. frustration, why are you then - barely a moment after - choosing to do that again, merely a few days after having had the experience and the connection to understand that the action your doing would do the exact thing you feel remorseful about? how can that, rationally speaking, possibly be genuine?

    and then there's the difference. OA? not big on Fe. FPs? <3 'em, very conscious of their direct actions, but they aren't very conscious of the social web in which they interact with and what it creates. you and i do. i'm already in deep Ti mode here, so intense that it's pretty much making my Fe band over... do i really need to 1up the inherit dorkiness in that and quote freaking spiderman? "with power..."

    every kid is told on a countless occasions to say "i am sorry" by any kinder garden teacher and most parents, long before they are able to understand why what they did had any negative impact, and they do it wonderfully. the reason remorse is meaningful isn't for the word "Sorry", there's no magical world changing affect to the word sorry, remorse is meaningful because it has the promise that shows the character from which trustworthyness stems from, it shows a willingness to understand how we caused negative consequences to the other, and an inner drive and will to avoid causing such harm in the future, and put someone else in front of your sense of esteem while doing so.

    so no, i'm sorry, i am probably coming off way more hostile and almost attackish then i want too, and i wish i had a deeper toolbucket in the realm of hit softening when i see truths that can be insulting for people, but no. the original post didn't express that meaning of remorse then your actions bluntly contradicted any sign that you have experienced it.

    objectively, experiencing remorse for an action followed by doing the action = no possible within the realm of potential definitions remorse might have in which it is in itself meaningful at all'. the interpretation of that as remorse is irrational. the requirement to accept this as remorse demands that we'll strip remorse from any meaning. and when an NT says irrational, i means "make my Ti hurt", "be the cause of cognitive dissonance", "conflicts with the belief that your words from one post and your words from another post happened within the same universe", "statement makes no sense".

    and no matter how much i'd want too, i can't choose to not see that.

    as far as causing frustration goes, the attempt above failed, but this one didn't:
    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    There are others, but if the recent and direct ones don't register, then I'm not sure the time investment to look through the posts would be worthwhile.
    stating more of the obvious: you expressed that you have seen INFJs express remorse, you have expressed that you will find some specific examples, and you then found an excuse to not do so.

    which, other then matching perfectly with an item of OA list, is an obvious choice on your part to do something which one can understand to cause frustration by sheer common sense, not just for me, but - if i was right that this is the common thread linking the many statements - then for anyone of the people here who empathize with that desire and read your promise.
    it is obvious cause of frustration because it is literally telling people your going to give them something that at least a few of them have openly expressed desiring, and then taking it away from them.

    that's not only defies your claim for any sense of remorse for causing frustration in the thread, it's incredibly thoughtless, if you would only stop to ask yourself, why we would desire such a thing?

    look, some people are here - in typology forums - for a sense of identity or affirmation, some people are here for a sense of belonging and connection to people who are more like them (perhaps more common for INFJs since you are the least likely to meet other people who are like you in the real world, at least in the limited level of similarity that typology provides), some are here to seek question about themselves, understand growth patterns, and many other reasons. but many are here with a baggage, with past and current relationships that they do not quite understand, from children and parents to lovers and friends to co workers and extended family, and see in typology a language in which the differences can be understood

    so stop and think, why would the people who have that - at least as one of their reasons - want to see a type expressing remorse, or complain about members of that type not being able to do so? again, common sense takes charge - because the people in those specific relationships haven't expressed any remorse. those people have done things and are doing things which they have no ability to go through the process of placing their ego aside, acknowledging what they did, understanding the damage and hurt it causes others, putting themselves out there if it is for something that they did in the past, or stopping if its something they are doing in the present. instead they did what the did for their reasons to do so, and have never asked themselves what that means for anyone else.

    can you think how that feels? can you think how difficult it is to forgive someone who has no capacity to acknowledge that they have anything to be forgiven for? to understand what that means, we have to ask what is forgiveness, what stands behind the word: forgiveness isn't just some abstract form of mental justice, just like remorse is the promise to try to not cause what you just felt remorseful for, protect the other from that aspect of yourself, so in turn, forgiveness is the act of relieving one's self from the fear of being caused that pain in the future, and in return, opening one's self to see the good in the other person, which then can play its role in healing the one expressing remorse, the one who gave up some of their esteem for the other person, relieving them of feeling crappy about themselves and what they did. so this is what those people - and me among them - never get. so much like those who have being victims to crimes and have to live knowing that the criminal is still out there, so they persist to live and guard themselves from that fear - they can push it to the back of their head but thats not close to letting go, and yes, even to the point of guarding themselves by avoiding placing trust in an entire MBTI type. and by the time that understanding has penetrated deep enough to see the inability as fact and extending it to the person's type, have came to the conclusion that they won't ever be able to see it. never get closure or reconciliation past deeds, never see the end of current ones.

    so what do you think seen remorse from an INFJ - even someone who is somewhat like the person who has harmed them - comes to represent in that context? depending on how deep the hurt is and how persistent it is - its freaking huge.

    so when you promised them - us - that you can show examples of INFJs expressing remorse and then find an excuse to take it away, that wasn't just the cruelty of offering a child candy only to deny it, rather: that's one hell of a candy.


    you can go on and withholding it, i doubt reading this would put you in a helpful mood towards the one writing it, it is certainly not a pleasant or comfortable read given it's content, or alternatively, go back on it because - i hope not but i see the possibility - you might question whether you had it in the first place. or you'll really freaking surprise me and deliver (yep, indulgent pre-framing right here on my part). but which ever path it takes... one more thing:

    you see all of the above? what is most of it? it's questions. its something you have - introverted thinking - the glorious question making machine. it would have being that simple to have not done that, and thus - given the assumption that you are capable of it - not having to feel remorse for it now (or later - actually a calm down between reading and answering might be desirable). simple, by asking yourself the same questions.most of the distance from the questions to the answers isn't very far, and would be easily available externally if it was. all the "unhealthy INFJ"s those people are talking about, do you think they intended of causing harm? wanted it? wanted to be the bad guys that the act of stating facts about their behavior has come to portray them as? maybe, but i really doubt it. my suspicion is that just like you in this little incident but in a larger scale and larger actions, they just didn't stop to ask the questions, and then... got stuck. because they didn't have the ability to experience the tools to get them out of it. and i really want to believe that its not a persistent case. which is why, for me? seen any INFJ that they can express remorse, blowing that suspicion away? its huge. so when you can understand the rational of why, trust me when i say, i want to see that so freaking badly.

  4. #214
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    In regards to the "remorse" question:

    I think of myself as someone who doesn't affect others much. I am not sure if this is accurate or not, as I've had people express various kinds of appreciation for various kinds of differences I've made in their lives. I also think it could be both good and bad. It could mean that I take care with others' feelings, try not to use or impose on others, etc. It could also mean that I don't bother with others much, that I'm somewhat aloof, that I seem uncaring, or even that I'm a bit bland or boring. I think that in different situations and with different people there could be some truth at least to all of the above. Put it this way - I'm certainly not one of those people who everyone either loves or hates, though I think a reasonable number of people have loved me, and few if any have hated me.

    What I'm trying to get at is that I do make a big effort to not affect others badly, and if possible to affect them in positive ways; to be pleasant to be around, to be helpful and kind, all that sort of thing. I have trouble asking for help. I think this leads people to find me far more self-sufficient than I actually am. (I'm not particularly independent but I look like I am, big-time.) I follow Christian principles (ie. do to others what you would have them do to you) to the best of my ability, I belong to a religious community and I am very aware of how my actions affect others. I have an extreme horror of being a "problem" or "trouble" to others or somehow using them. I don't think that's necessarily because I'm such a wonderful person, it just feels really bad to me, really exposing and embarrassing. I even have a number of very close ("best") friends with whom, if I feel the need to vent and rant about things, or if I've had a bad day and I'm crabby - although they understand and they mostly like being able to help, I feel I have to say "I'm really sorry for ranting, it's kind of draining for you, I feel bad dumping all this on you." If I say something to someone which I later realise to be potentially hurtful, I will generally come back and say "I hope I didn't hurt your feelings, I realise that could have been a dumb, hurtful thing to say."

    So bringing this back to the remorse thing - I feel like a lot, if not the majority, of the mistakes I make are between me and me, or between me and God. If I have done many terrible things to people which require my remorse and restitution, they have not made me aware of this. I don't think the majority of the mistakes I make have a very deep and bad effect on others; I constantly just get told that I'm no trouble and that I seem very self-sufficient. I also believe that what might go by "remorse" is often just words. We all know people who are always dramatically apologetic and say they will never do something again, but they constantly engage in actions and behaviours which contradict their words and which affect others very badly.

    Perhaps there are times when I assume I'm not affecting others much, because I usually don't, and more overt displays of remorse would be appropriate. I also know that there are times when I feel unwilling or unable to show remorse - rarely - and generally some sort of hurt feelings, pride and wanting to protect myself; generally when I feel they owe me an apology or their presence in my life can't do any good.

    @Mane, I can appreciate that you've had some bad INFJ experiences but I find it bewildering and genuinely quite upsetting that you say that even on here, not just IRL, you have never seen an INFJ express remorse. I have seen it in this thread and elsewhere. It makes me wonder if maybe other people do see us as broken or faulty. If we can't communicate right, somehow.

    I honestly have probably never read anything on this forum that has so much made me want to leave and not come back, because it really makes me wonder what the point is.
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  5. #215
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post

    honestly no, it's not. from an outside perspective, it is incredibly general and you aren't taking responsibility for anything specific you've done - while at the time of the writing it was possible that it came from a place of genuine remorse, a generalization that stems from a deep understanding of an assortment of points at which you acknowledge you have caused frustration and have collected into one apology, the lack of examples of any actual action, deed or behavior which you where acknowledging, and the fact the entire expression was limited to the statement "i feel remorse", made the more obvious interpretation a lot more likely, that being that the topic at hand gave you the opportunity to place a "just in case" disclaimer which could help you avoid and sooth down any future hostility with the people you've argued with.
    You do realise that this basically just comes across as "Your remorse is insincere and probably a lie, and I refuse to believe that it is genuine."

    I don't honestly know if this is an atmosphere where anyone can reach any productive conclusions about anyone else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I have seen it in this thread and elsewhere. It makes me wonder if maybe other people do see us as broken or faulty. If we can't communicate right, somehow.
    where are they?

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    If I have done many terrible things to people which require my remorse and restitution, they have not made me aware of this.
    god damn it.. i can take that self-belief away so easily, even when knowing so little about you. i'll use the spoiler tags to keep the choice to not read on more available, for what it's worth.



    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    You do realise that this basically just comes across as "Your remorse is insincere and probably a lie"
    ...because? really, there's a whole continuation after that explaining why... the rational reason for something to be the case doesn't go away by not reading it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post

    but you decided to take that admitting and then reframe it to mean that i was blaming the women who where being physically abused by their husbands.

    that wasn't quite deep cutting, soft spot but i had my distance, enough to see it as you trying to win points in an argument by trying to further discrediting the attacker. certainly not close to the point where it would make much sense or be worthwhile to try to point out affect the matter. but the excuse poses no legitimization in my eyes, no more then a bulletproof vest justifies trying to shoot someone's heart: it was simply one of the ugliest expressions of Fe i have ever seen. in my mind the only question about you was, "what kind of a person does something like that?".
    .
    I decided to take it as such? It doesn't occur to you that that's exactly how it came across? As I recall, I asked you to clarify whether you were blaming the women for the abuse. It sure as hell sounded like you were.

    You don't think your comments about INFJs, and many of us on a personal level, in this thread and others, come across as "ugly expressions" of whatever function I could decide to pick on? If you're happy being the pot calling the kettle black, that's absolutely fine, but I'd have more respect for you if you admitted it.

    I know I've got ugly sides to my personality and I know I try to hurt people sometimes. I admit to it. Maybe you should do the same.
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  8. #218
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    You know @Mane, I don't know you personally/IRL. I could do what you're doing to most of us in this thread - which is calling us liars. Telling us we have no self-awareness. Telling us that we have the empathy and remorse levels of psychopaths.

    You're basically saying "I assume you're lying about your remorse, because I don't like INFJs, and because I've had bad experiences." What would you think if I started telling you "I assume you're lying about being someone who admits to messing up. I assume you're lying about ever having shown remorse. Maybe you treated the INFJs around you badly. Maybe you treat everyone in your life like shit. I see nothing, NOTHING, in this thread or anywhere else we've interacted to contradict all of the above."

    A productive approach, no?


    EDIT: By the way, I never said "I have never done terrible things which require remorse and restitution." I have said I have not done many of them, or people haven't bothered to make me aware of them. I have done plenty of things which required apologies from me. I don't think I have always apologised. But I have usually apologised and felt bad over hurting others. Sometimes I have apologised when it really wasn't necessary. I don't think the majority of the mistakes I have made have been "terrible things".

    I can provide you a very specific incident or two fairly recently where I have hurt someone in my life and offered them my remorse. But I am not sure if there is any point. I don't think you're going to accept any remorse from INFJs as valid in this thread. HOwever, let me know if you want to hear the examples.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorenx7 View Post
    I have to briefly return from a self-imposed exile to agree with your statements. Everything you are saying here gets to the crux of what it's like to be an INFP. It would literally be impossible to understand INFP behavior without having a firm grasp on these things.
    Thank you again brother for your kind words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    Thank you again brother for your kind words.
    De rien.

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