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  1. #181
    Gone Aesthete's Avatar
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    I don't have anything to say against INFJs. I don't know that many - and the ones I do aren't close - but they haven't caused me any trouble.
    Great men are like eagles, and build their nest on some lofty solitude.

    Schopenhauer

  2. #182
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    it is a judgment once it's communicated as "evidence" that controls what can be considered the truth. it's a way of controlling an interaction. there's no such thing as "exploration" apart from judgment. there is only couching that judgment in "self-evident facts" that can be observed by direct perception. this works best with newtonian physics and not complex socio-symbolic behavior. or in law to establish an event happened. but not to explain the meaning of an event. literary criticism is much more complicated.
    I certainly disagree with that, at least as far as I interpret your meaning of judgement. I can categorize my own experience, but that's not categorizing yours. You're applying the Je manner to Ji here...

    I figure you can either deny my experience or assert that my connection to the theory is not correct.
    I can't accept the former, because that's asking me to be delusional, but I don't hear any argument for the latter. If there is no connection to Ni, which I definitely more than suggested there is, then WHY NOT? Where is the missing piece? OR, perhaps there is a connection to Ni, and I have not categorized incorrectly, but these categories are broad & may not always involve such extreme behavior. So what do YOU categorize under these Ni descriptions?

    However, most (not all) of what I hear is, "I refuse to talk about this, so instead let's analyze you & your motives, Orangeappled, & discredit YOU so we don't actually have to make an argument against your points".

    it's not that interesting to me.
    Then why respond?

    i appreciate that you want "credible" evidence, facts that you can use to control how we describe what is "actual." but as i've said, that's only useful to prove something happened. it's not really useful to prove that something means something else. with that, you can only falsify things that it is unlikely to mean.or express what it meant for you (which ranges based on well-being from a great Fi skill to a common Fi generalization error that happens especially when the Fi user gets angry).
    Why not do that? I expressed what it meant for me, and I'm asking - What do those points about Ni mean for you?
    In avoiding that it comes off like denial of any negative facets of Ni. And YES, that is one of my major complaints of INFJs, not set up as a trap, but a statement to answer the question of the OP.

    or depressive e4 issue? an ability to wallow in self-pity does not produce authenticity. it produces an ability to relate to other's wallowing in self-pity and to understand the pitfalls that come from building a storehouse of negative thoughts and bad habits to cope with the emotional sinking that depressive types know so well. the intention to me feels like bringing others down to your level.
    You can make a separate "What drives you nuts about Oranges who are Appled?" thread if you like, but this is a derail. In offering up that INFPs can have a distorted view of themselves, I was only hoping to soften my own criticism by allowing people to be human.

    this is something that bothers me. true, you may say, you are childish, or you may say, i find your behavior childish. the latter is not better if you still use a pejorative identity marker that is obviously supposed to be a negative representation. in this case, you are saying others are immature and suggesting that you alone are mature. and they are immature because they do not agree with you. they are emotional like a child and issue "cries" that are not as rational as you presume to be, when you keep your emotions at bay (by sticking to "the facts" that you deem "the facts"). why you see yourself as employing mature emotional communication strategies is simply beyond me. you are affecting them as well but deny your role in doing so. how is this any different? it only works for you because you presume to have access to "reality" that makes you right be default of being the one who is right. this is circular in its own way. and you just want to use typology to justify it rather than using it to clarify the larger pattern that exists outside of you as well.
    No, I am saying complaining is immature when the context has ASKED for commentary like mine. I'm not claiming any superior maturity, but a justification in speaking up at all. I said I was seeking to affect others, to get some reaction to start a discussion. So I'm well aware I have a role here. I just don't think that role is the villain others would like to make it out to be. I know my motive & won't have it distorted.

    Pe is tricky. ultimately everyone's responsibility is defining what is actual for them. you can't use someone else's Pe. Pe cannot be communicated without Je. it can only be performed. enacted. actualized. as it gets communicated, it loses its sense that it is yours. the truth is organized by what emerges. and you are denying that.
    We'll have to disagree on that. Pe in the dom/aux is organized by Ji, not Je. That's why IxxPs use indirect & informing communication much of the time. We're not inclined to judge for others (although I keep seeing how my post was incorrectly interpreted that way). You're interpreting with Je though, which is why you keep insisting there's so much "judgement" here. The facts of my experience are a truth, and the theory provides a framework, but the way I fit it together is very much mine. If I thought otherwise, then I wouldn't be disappointed with the lack of discussion. I'm not looking for agreement or consensus; I thought that was clear as well.

    No one seems to get that I'm saying: go ahead, question this. But they're not questioning the points I made, they're questioning me & my motive.

    your argument is that infjs inferior Se at times is hugely problematic for them and leads to mistakes in judgment regarding the emotions of others? that not attending to the story of where others are coming from leads to poor guesses at times?
    I think it leads to mistakes in seeing the big picture because pertinent details have been put aside when forming it. The big picture becomes a narrow lens, then. It appears that in order to avoid a certain answer when asking themselves a question about what is what, they don't assimilate certain facts into their view. I say "assimilate", because it seems they note them (they may even say them aloud), but the info is disregarded when connecting the dots. This can be many things, and sometimes it is others' feelings or emotions.

    In attempting to connect these dots, the person may become angry that you're including this information, because it forms a picture they don't like (or I assume that is why). To a degree, that has happened here as well; certain points are ignored & the picture is being formed without them, and as I keep bringing them up, people are getting mad. So then, why are these points not relevant? I ask, how does the Ni description NOT apply to you when you claim to be Ni-dom? Of course, not all of it will apply, but it's interesting how little to none of the negative does apply.

    or that you've met infjs (including 3w4s, who i believe are enfjs), who exhibit especially negative e3 issues that you do not like so all infjs should realize that they are condemned to be completely full of shit unless they take Pe types word for it that they are wrong much of the time? i mean, what's a concrete situation that you see this happening in?
    No, this is certainly the defensive interpretation though. Since I've explained my motive countless times, I won't bother to again.

    because MY Pe types tell me that i need to learn to trust myself to determine what is real. and that they're glad to support me when i ask for story help, but that i need to keep trying to become more present on my own, to take responsibility for myself to deem what is real and what is not, so that i can relate to the interiors of others with my own sense of actuality, my own experiential truth. (rather than just submitting to theirs...)
    Well, great, that's your experience then. I get the impression that people here think I have not noted when attempts have been made to answer: What do those points about Ni mean for you?. That is not true. I responded to your earlier posts where I got the sense you were doing that, & I noted Fidelia's response as well.

    but it sure feels like you're just trying to railroad others. if you know you're right, why do you need their confirmation? why do you have to have them see it your way if you won't see it theirs? you're still assuming that Pe IS reality and that Pi is illusory, secondary, and ultimately full of shit. the fact is we are negotiating what the "correct" context is. when you assume that you inherently have it because you believe your "type" is blessed with a greater connection to reality. when your focus on what can better be labeled "actuality" is only to say that you focus on a different scale of perception that is like a hand moving from a distance to right in front of your face. but you miss context because of this near-sightedness as well. this is why it must be negotiated.
    I know I am right about my experience; how could I not be? I'm not asking for confirmation of that. I'm asking to hear how your experience relates to these points I quoted (& connected to my own)
    .
    I defined the context because in this case it's my motive; that is not always the case, just now.

    I will accept the context I have been given for INFJs not discussing flaws, which is not arrogance then, but it doesn't mean I have to like the behavior any more than anyone here has to like my manner.

    furthermore, and this is my reading of what is happening, you create a split that is logically untenable. you perpetuate the j/p bias because you don't grasp the diversity of Je, instead reducing it to a caricature of what it is. Ji focuses on the directly observable. this often results in missing out in the unity that binds things together. especially as you cross over from one scale to another and make logical type errors as a result of domains that are irreducible to each other because the paradigms are simply incommensurable and cannot be bridged by direct observation without also observing the observer.

    i don't know how to explain this to you further, but Je functioning is a necessary aspect of all intelligent systems. Je is the recursive language system that binds organizations together across different orders of experience. its usage develops the communicational conditions for perception to be shared and engineered into complex constructions. not just between people, but in the very creation of (self-)consciousness in all forms. you may think this is a secondary point. but you are missing the Je context.
    Again, I disagree with you on Ji, which you continue to interpret with Je (it always just sounds like narrow Je, much as I may make Pi sound like narrow Pe).

    But have I not asked - when & how does Fe come into play with these Ni issues? But that can't be addressed when the Ni issues won't be discussed. I said - hey, when does Fe save the day? Because for the millionth time, my complaints were about Ni. I'm not saying "develop your inferior". I think I explained that already.

    There is no corner I'm backing anyone into when I complain that INFJs don't admit their flaws. No one needs to prove me wrong or right. I'm at a loss as to why my opinion should be so upsetting, if it's just my opinion. Do they fear the INFJ rep being tarnished or something?

    If it bothers people that they'd "have" to discuss flaws to "prove me wrong", then that does sort of support my complaint. I didn't set it up that way, it's just the nature of that flaw. The misconception is that I'm saying you must cop to the same flaws I've experienced in INFJs. I made a connection with my experience & a theory, not a full equation of the two, as if that's always how Ni plays out. I was interested in discussing how those points about Ni connect to others' experiences. And while I hoped for that, I honestly did expect this. Did I have suspicions & were they confirmed? Yes, but I didn't set anything up with that purpose. Rather I included my disappointment & frustration in my post, even as I hoped otherwise.

    Rather, I am the one who is being pushed to "admit" I'm either a troll or lashing out emotionally, neither of which is true. If this has been railroaded, then it was not according to my motive. This certainly has not gone in the direction I hoped for.

    even as many infjs readily admit their inferior Se and even provide examples of when it works against them. why this is not enough for you is very strange to try to comprehend.
    It's strange to me that you say "many" & "readily", because I've seen "few" and "reluctantly". But I am satisfied with that discussion when it does occur, as I've noted several times.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  3. #183
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    you know, i remember when someone - an Fi user - saw in me something representing the ENTP ways of family members. she explained to me how painful the ways of Ti can be, when we so ruthlessly dig down into someone's soul and try to see how they tick, the endless questions breaking all laws of what is private by pulling it aside, and worst of all, the Ti based ego - since its' so easy to be proud of what your good at - when an ENTP digs down their findings and showing it to the public eye, like a child shouting "look what i found", showcasing the most private mental organs of another, and everyone knowing that it's hers.

    how easy it would be to me to tell her, "i am not him, i have never done that to you, why are you blaming me for someone else's actions? what are your intentions in saying so? what do you expect from me?"... and i would perhaps be legitimate and righteous in doing so, if my righteousness had any relevance to the matter.

    but ofcourse, it didn't. in fact blame for the specific actions wasn't applied to me, it was for the character traits behind it, taken to an extreme that would be easy for me to disassociate with.

    instead, i recognized her struggle - trying to gain some peace and forgive someone who would not ask for forgiveness, and i emphasized with it very strongly, it is a near impossible task.

    in his case, probably not because he wasn't curious about the problem, nor because he couldn't see himself, but because he never saw a world without himself: he was never able to imagine how a mind not dominant by Ti would look like, and so was never able to understand why the blunt way at which he utilizing it on her was such a hurtful experience for her, and without being able to understand why it hurt, any compassion he might have had towards her pain never got legitimized, it didn't make rational sense to him, he wasn't able to maintain the cognitive dissonance to resolve his emotional dissonance and provide her with the emotional response she needed, something which is both within the spectrum of ENTPs in particular and T's at large.

    i couldn't apologize for his actions, so i sought within myself, and apologized for mine, expressed my strong sense of guilt and displeasure with times i acted out of the same spectrum, in other cases with other actions and other people, my desire to take such actions back, my compassion to those hurt by actions that i was responsible for - the compassion which is harder then most, the one that includes putting your ego aside and insulting yourself with it in order to accept the reality you created. remorse is never a fun thing to have or to show anyone, but i can only hope that she might have gotten some relief from it.

    and on a sidenote:
    if someone declares you can't do something, the easiest way to disprove them is to do it.

    hope this anecdote might be of use.

  4. #184
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    OrangeAppled, I'll go through and respond to each of your points. I also looked up some other online criticisms of the type. I also clicked on your link and see that you are quoting yourself in this post. In the original post you put a disclaimer that this doesn't necessarily refer to all INFJs, and that would have been useful in this context as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    1. General paranoia. Example: everyone is out to get them for no good reason. All of their problems are due to these people who are out to get them, and there is absolutely nothing they have done to spur these people, of course. In reality, these people may not like them, but they are ignoring the INFJ, not out to get them; OR the INFJ has given them a reason to react that way.

    "Have little awareness of the facts of the external world... the world of facts are far removed for them, and they try to confine their contact with these things to the aspects which they can regulate as they like. Everything else appears to them as suspicious, as something they must defend themselves against."

    "The influence of reason is inconsistent & self-centered....and the knowledge behind their thoughts is often incomplete.....they may force a line of reasoning that ends up being unclear and contradictory."
    I have read in the past that INFJs can have a dark, cynical view of the world. The first quote could describes reasoning that could be applied socially, but is not a social line of reasoning by nature. It could also be a reason to store up supplies for fear of natural catastrophe. The last quote doesn't necessarily refer to paranoia, but just that their reasoning may be incomplete if using only Ni to analyze.

    I think personal anecdotes were requested as well. I had many feelings of social rejection, but tended to feel it was because I was in some way inadequate and was connected to a tendency to admire people too much and long for a connection. There are also aspects of my experience that did not help train me to make friends and connect socially. On the issue of reasoning, I often feel overwhelmed by the limits of my mind to think clearly. When I read books about the limits of the human mind in general combined with my own history of being deceived by irrational lines of reasoning, I am at a loss to know how to correct such a deep lack.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    2. Selfishness & in denial about it. Playing tyrant/victim, whichever suits them to get their way. They pat themselves on the back for being so "giving", but they only give in ways that suits them (ie. benefits them also in some way), not according to what people truly need & are even asking for.

    " Egotism, and a desire to dominate, may cause them to use these requirements of an ideal relationship to benefit their own agenda."
    I don't understand the quote except the word "egotism" and "dominate" imply a controlling behavior. The tyrant/victim dynamic is one of the main accusations I don't understand in this post. It is a quality of borderline personality disorder, narcissism, and other attachment disorders. It is also the emotional dynamic that results from abuse. If someone behaves in that manner, I would be curious about their experiences more than their personality temperament. I would suspect a history of abuse of some sort.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    3. They will not take personal responsibility* for any problem in their life or any negative effect they have on others; they are always blaming something outside themselves.
    This is a second point that I am not certain how it relates to the type and everything I mentioned about the personality disorder issues applies here. Fe is aware of the external world of emotion and can be more aware of the emotions of others than of oneself. When Ni has some sort of helpful vision for humanity, it will tend to place unreasonable personal responsibility on self, moreso than others. Could the reverse of this occur? I don't know, but suppose it could be possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    4. General Delusion*. They will see nothing but what they want to see, which is a majorly distorted perspective completely at odds with the reality of the world. See quote for #1.
    Because of the nature of Ni, because it constructs a sense of the big picture, one so big that it cannot be comprehended at once, if it is constructed in a realistic way, it can provide insights, but if constructed poorly, then I can see it being one of the more off-base functions. It distills reality down to its core concepts to navigate a large realm - something like watching the north star to navigate the seas. If one if watching a shooting star or an orbiting satellite, then they may become particularly lost.

    ON a personal note: I was completely hoodwinked by religion into my adult life. When comparing experiences with T-doms, I have found that they were able to unravel these systems at a much earlier age than I was. Because of this I do not trust my thinking on a deep level which on the one hand makes me vulnerable to outside systems, but on the other hand keeps me from fully accepting anything. I think agnostically on a deep level.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    5. They are not simply sensitive to criticism; they refuse to acknowledge they have flaws at all or that they have any blame in a situation, period. Yet, they criticize others heavily & have high expectations for them that they could never meet themselves.

    "They may make demands on others without being prepared to meet the same demands themselves."
    I also found these quotes:
    May be unable (or unwilling) to understand that a romantic relationship is falling apart
    Very vulnerable to conflicts and criticism – INFJs are likely to avoid such situations at all costs, which may also contribute to the previous point
    Likely to hide their inner feelings from the rest of the world
    .

    On a personal note: I have found that the lower my self-esteem, the more failure I have encountered, the more critical I feel of myself, the more the dichotomy of hiding and openness comes into play. I withdraw intensely when I feel this way, and these are the times in my life when I bring on the worst judgment from others. I think that externally there is some type of stoic demeanor that people misunderstand. When I was in high school and my friends would joke in the locker-room, I would feel socially inept and incapable of joining in which made me feel badly about myself. One friend later told me she thought I was judging them. When I went through my divorce and my self-esteem was scraping the sea floor, a family member berated me on the phone and said, that I thought I was the special one now. When I close off communication people tend to respond with the most vicious judgments, and perhaps this is because I typically smile and so the withdrawal feels like rejection. I will analyze these scenarios to the point of obsession to try to figure out from every angle what it looked like, what is my guilt in it, what is theirs, how such a thing can be avoided in the future. I am nearly unable to let go until I have a few plausible explanations. If I don't keep a reasoned, analytical perspective, I will blame myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    6. They make promises or state intentions they either cannot keep or don't intend to keep, mainly to get others to do what they want. When they are called on these promises, they get mad at people for being "demanding"* & accuse them of not being supportive of them by expecting too much. I see this as a form of manipulation, even if not intentional.

    "Seek to regulate everything according to their own ideas...
    Apt to be tyrants within their own small circle...
    Rather than adapt themselves to others, they will limit their contact with those who do not agree with them..."
    I read some place I cannot find online now that INFJs under distress can lose their thinking into that of others. When there are opposite criticisms does that mean that it is a natural dichotomy, or that the two attributes cannot coexist? Every trait cannot exist in opposites or it would be difficult to distinguish one type from another.

    On a personal note: In my profession my lack of controlling behavior is a deficit. I work with primarily with SJs, so it might be an issue of approach. I have analyzed myself for controlling behavior because the lack of it is an issue. I have one area of controlling behavior when it comes to feeling rejected by a romantic partner, but lack the trait in other scenarios to a fault. I don't feel bothered if students are late or do not practice, if I am short-changed, or for most interactions. I try to solve problems and use inspiration for internal motivation because external motivation doesn't make much sense to me. It only stresses me out. I do throw out a ton of ideas to people - maybe we should try this, or this, or this? I have had a couple of people respond with the assumption that I was expecting something from them, so now I explicitly explain that I throw out many ideas just to see which one stick because sharing projects is how I interact with people, but that I certainly don't expect a response on anything. I expect most things to fall through, but throw out ideas because that way people are intended to feel free to reject some or all. It is supposed to lessen a sense of pressure because it is like having fun exploring ideas and possibilities without feeling like everything has to be done.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    7. INSANE double standards. For example, only the INFJ is allowed to be hurt; if they hurt you & you communicate this, then they act hurt that you'd dare imply they are even capable of hurting someone (see inability to accept criticism, even if that means they will invalidate others' feelings & trample their needs). Other kinds of double standards they flex include holding other people to standards they themselves fail to meet & likely never will. See quote for #5.

    * Elaboration: They respond to emotional pain with a perspective shift which eases that pain by removing personal responsibility. Instead of literally running away (as a Pe type would; seeking a new external environment for better possibilities), they mentally distance themselves from something, creating a new mental possibility (or viewpoint) that has nothing to do with reality, but soothes their feelings. This new, distorted perspective explains away any blame they might have to accept otherwise. Now, they don't have to change what they do either; instead, they insist others change for them, & they either cut these people off or manipulate them to if they won't adhere to the INFJ's wishes.
    Wow, that would be horrific. I don't know any INFJs who do that. I'm not sure why they wouldn't just change environments because that seems like more of a way to take action. I change environments every time one seems negative.

    On a personal note: I did have an issue with double standards when I was young, but it was the reverse of what you describe. I did not have the ability to feel anger towards other people, even when I should, and would internalize it instead. Throughout my young adult life I thought I hated myself. As I matured I made a specific effort to learn to react with anger towards other people. I was always uneasy feeling anger towards someone else because I never had enough information about their life. I thought the first time I get really angry and yell at someone - I'm going to find out just how hard their life really is and regret the personal indulgence. I know my own life. I know what I can or can't handle, and so I was the only person it felt safe to enact anger upon. Even though I knew I had hard things, it just seemed like if other people were acting out, that there was always the possibility that they had faced so much more. Directing anger inward allowed me to withhold judgment on others, to allow more time to find out what their struggles are and how much they can handle in terms of push back.

    I experience the emotions from my environments which has required that I quit important jobs. I was an adjunct at the local university, but the political plays and mistrust caused me to have nausea, headaches, and dizziness. The communication was so convoluted, that I could tell things I said were being misinterpreted because everyone felt defensive, but there wasn't a way to clear things up. I could feel so much defensiveness, fear and fight to survive in their positions, feelings of ego and humiliation, and I could see that the behaviors were not these people's authentic selves, but distortions caused by the environment. Some of their negativity towards me was the result of this spiral of misunderstanding which included misinterpreting my communication, and so I don't dislike any of them personally, and I don't venture to fully judge, but the dynamic I do judge, reject, and so I quit the job to exit that environment.

    By nature I think we have to have one level of double standard when it comes to judging self and others because of that veil between us and others. Even for empathetic people, there is that veil and I feel a level of respect to not intrude through it fully. On the other hand, it is important to view self from the same distance as others. This is the only way I know to achieve either objectivity or empathy - to find a vantage point outside self.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #185
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Why not do that? I expressed what it meant for me, and I'm asking - What do those points about Ni mean for you?
    In avoiding that it comes off like denial of any negative facets of Ni. And YES, that is one of my major complaints of INFJs, not set up as a trap, but a statement to answer the question of the OP.
    I don’t think it’s denial about Ni so much as it feels like you’re expecting things to be put in Fi terms and we can’t do that- at least I know I can’t. “What do those points about Ni mean for you?’ is like Greek to me. It seems like you’re expecting ‘truth’ to be stated in a way that feels like truth to you- and the way Fi’ers often express ‘truth’ doesn’t look like truth to me. It looks like a very subjective, biased truth that I don't particularly find useful (it is truth, but I’m wired to prioritize T, not F), so it doesn't surprise me you don't find our answers useful either.

    I’m getting closer to figuring out what’s so annoying about this insinuation of yours. It isn’t the content of the list that’s getting under my skin. When you first posted it in the common issues thread, I actually thought it was kinda funny, having had similar experiences myself with NFJs. I didn’t think it belonged in ‘common issues’, but I still thought it was funny. And if I remember correctly I even left you an “LOL, least so variant ftw” rep comment about it. But then it came up again (and again) and you’ve said things in a way that- though I didn’t know how to explain, I do remember thinking ‘okay yeah, I can see why an INFJ would close themselves off from that’. Pe gets pushy, impatient and/or derogatory and I don’t think Pe’ers even realize they’re doing it.

    Probably the most important point in this regard is that you won’t get instant gratification about F matters from an INFJ- not unless we’ve had plenty of time to digest it, or it's something we've previously specifically thought about before. Perusing the beginning of the INFJ common issues thread just now reminded me, that in itself is a common INFJ issue, the way it sometimes takes a long time to unravel the mess of intuition I’m sitting on and how it *often* gets mistaken for unwillingness to talk by people who don’t have as difficult a time as I do. If you bring something up and then get derogatory or start throwing accusations about being ‘in denial’ because you’re not getting the Fi-style answers you want as soon as you want them—I can almost guarantee that’ll shut most INFJs down and they won’t even bother trying. I think it was fia who said that she doesn’t open up and discuss things unless it seems somewhat safe to do so and I can say this is definitely true for me too, as well the sane INFJ friend (the crazy one- not so much, but that really is about denial). The moment the other person gets hostile (even just mocking), forget it. And there was hostility in these posts of yours from the get go- even though I personally thought it was funny the first time, because I directly understood the frustration of dealing with the things you listed- once you jumped to the conclusion that not getting the response you want from your post was en masse denial it really started putting me off.

    And it’s totally available to get as disparaging as you want about that- how Fe needs things to be ‘too nice’- just realize it’s exactly the thing that shuts down access to any real answers. I actually don’t think it’s a Fe thing so much as an introverted perception thing (in a person inclined towards F)- being circumspect about the way things unzip into much bigger tangents in one’s head, and taking precautionary measures to avoid causing that where it isn’t necessary. I just instinctively pick up on the people who won’t begin to get that- who will want answers right away, have no respect for the need I have to slowly untangle my thoughts without someone breathing down my neck, or someone who doesn’t begin to understand the need to be careful with words because the problem of big things unzipping in their head is a completely foreign concept to them. <-I don’t necessarily think any of that is ‘wrong’, I just see it as someone who won’t get it so it probably is a waste of time to try. And I usually make relatively accurate assessments in that regard- writing off people who will be a problem. As derogatory as Pe’ers can get about it, I find it’s often the Pe’ers who are most blind to the distress they can cause who are also the most insistent (and bullying) about how ‘stupid’ it is to write someone off.

    Not only all of that^, but pushing with insults or accusations can bring out a need to push back with insults or accusations in return. I’m pretty sure that is what you’re seeing here in this thread, at least in part (at least from me). [eta: Although I do think the initial posts here by- I think by fid and SilkRoad, possibly others, I don't remember- were probably more attempts at making sense of what you were posting, asking the specific questions that would help make sense of whatever point you were trying to get across.]

    As much as Fi’ers *just wish* people would be honest and put forth whatever blunt honesty happens to be in their head that very moment- I think Ni’ers *just wish* people would have at least a tiny bit of foresight and think a little harder about what they’re saying and the possible ramifications of it…..it’s just so much easier for us to pay attention in the first place than it is to clean up messes. The best path, I suspect, is somewhere right in the middle- people who are capable of both. When you have the attention span of a fly (overzealous Pe), messes probably aren’t as much of a big deal so it’s probably difficult to begin to understand the value in paying attention. But they leave more of a stain in Pi, it’s a lot harder to ‘wash out’ bad experiences of a person/place/thing to Pi’ers, and people who demonstrate having little or no regard for the way my thought process works (and understanding must be demonstrated- not declared) generally aren’t given authentic access.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    You can make a separate "What drives you nuts about Oranges who are Appled?" thread if you like, but this is a derail.

    Actually we can’t, at least not without unwanted forum consequences. You could start one though, or at least agree for the bulk of this to be moved to a different thread under that heading. (If Cze Cze (?) were still a mod, she could come up with a fantastic "the INFJs and INFPs have a fireside chat" title.) I agree this all is too much of a derail, and it doesn’t really belong in this thread.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

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    Is this tl;dr thread still raging on? One annoying thing about INFJs is that they don't seem to know when to give up. Don't you have some grand vision to implement somewhere or something instead? I'm willing to bet money that literally every point has been covered in all this. Plus you cannot beat us INFPs unless we choose to let you win, our heels dig in WWI style and you're left fighting us by throwing grenades cross No Man's Land for years. Logic does not permeate our defense systems. Perhaps if you went all out, guns blazing without the Fe you may get somewhere but that doesn't appear to be happening.

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    Senior Member flameskull95's Avatar
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    Other than the debate, I think the bias and ridicule is what puts me off from this thread. What's the practical application of MBTI if the people that study it can't respect the fact that other people bear different perspectives on issues?
    I'm a INFP - The sociopath

    I think I'm either a 4w5, 4w3, 6w5 or 9w1. Most possibly 4w5.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flameskull95 View Post
    Other than the debate, I think the bias and ridicule is what puts me off from this thread. What's the practical application of MBTI if the people that study it can't respect the fact that other people bear different perspectives on issues?
    Does MBTI even have a practical application? Isn't the whole theory pseudo-scientific, unfalsifiable pop psychology? If the theory is a complete joke then its not really surprising if the adherents treat it like one. Plus....what if the perspective of another is that being biased and ridiculing another is ok? You would be disrespecting another's perspective with one hand and lecturing with a pointed finger to respect another's perspective with another.

    Examples (exaggerated for intended comical effect) :

    "Lock up that INFJ! The INFJ ate my child as they thought my child was an illuminati spy!"
    "I'm INFP and I don't cut my wrists!"
    "No true NT would act that way and that it is NOT a "No True Scotsman" fallacy if you were capable of thinking about it."

    And so on and so forth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    Is this tl;dr thread still raging on? One annoying thing about INFJs is that they don't seem to know when to give up. Don't you have some grand vision to implement somewhere or something instead? I'm willing to bet money that literally every point has been covered in all this. Plus you cannot beat us INFPs unless we choose to let you win, our heels dig in WWI style and you're left fighting us by throwing grenades cross No Man's Land for years. Logic does not permeate our defense systems. Perhaps if you went all out, guns blazing without the Fe you may get somewhere but that doesn't appear to be happening.
    See I don't see that as what is happening. While the INFJs may have taken issue with OA's post, do you notice that the biggest focus is them trying to articulate for themselves WHY it bothers them. I see these kinds of exchanges that begin with a bit of prickliness as an opportunity to find out where our perspectives diverge and how we interpret the same statement as having different connotations entirely. That to me seems to be a practical element of MBTI. I don't claim to understand the opposite perspective from mine, but during my time here, these discussions have

    1) Made me aware that there are other legitimate ways of processing information than mine (I honestly was surprised in some cases to realize that the same statement could have entirely different meaning than I would construe from it and that it is an equally legitimate way of viewing the world).

    2) Made me aware of some of the things I do instinctively that I thought were universal expressions of care/regard for others, but which may not be perceived as that.

    3) Helped me as a mod during times of conflict with particular members, especially when I couldn't understand the motivation for their mode of communication.

    4) Given me greater understanding of myself and appreciation for others.

    5) Realized that something that seems pretty inocuous to me can be felt as judgey and unkind, while something they say that seems honest to them can seem rather unvarnished. Helps give me the benefit of the doubt when something is stated in terms that I would normally find offensive.

    I'm not saying that I can navigate the communication gap easily, but at least I recognize it is there now and I think have made some progress each time a thread like this comes up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    See I don't see that as what is happening. While the INFJs may have taken issue with OA's post, do you notice that the biggest focus is them even figuring out WHY it bothers them. I see these kinds of exchanges that begin with a bit of prickliness as an opportunity to find out where our perspectives diverge and how we interpret the same statement as having different connotations entirely. That to me seems to be a practical element of MBTI. I don't claim to understand the opposite perspective from mine, but during my time here, these discussions have

    1) Made me aware that there are other legitimate ways of processing information than mine (I honestly was surprised in some cases to realize that the same statement could have entirely different meaning than I would construe from it and that it is an equally legitimate way of viewing the world).

    2) Made me aware of some of the things I do instinctively that I thought were universal expressions of care/regard for others, but which may not be perceived as that.

    3) Helped me as a mod during times of conflict with particular members, especially when I couldn't understand the motivation for their mode of communication.

    4) Given me greater understanding of myself and appreciation for others.

    5) Realized that something that seems pretty inocuous to me can be felt as judgey and unkind, while something they say that seems honest to them can seem rather unvarnished. Helps give me the benefit of the doubt when something is stated in terms that I would normally find offensive.

    I'm not saying that I can navigate the communication gap easily, but at least I recognize it is there now and I think have made some progress each time a thread like this comes up.
    Heh you replied to that crap I wrote? Kudos to you, it was a troll comment to see if I could bait a reaction. Your five points however in my humble opinion could have been learnt easily enough through just reading through random threads made by other personality types. There are plenty on the internet, I've been doing it years and still not got to the bottom. But perhaps you learn through the direct interaction, though I wonder what can be learnt in the endless rehashing of previous points. But if it helped you then all is good I suppose.

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