A recommencement of hostilities. I am weeping with joy behind this expressionless mask. I'm not involved in this but since when does war hunger for etiquette? However this response is also relevant only to the quoted material and pays not heed to the rest of the conversation spread across the thread.
I disagree that you can prove anything, you can only disprove assertions and claims though I understand in the bigger context this was not what you were implying at all. However you are incorrect about Fi here. Fi does not make generalizations errors of any kind as its a system designed for the subtle interpretation of the values and desires of the unconscious self. It's nuanced and highly precise. It's the inferior Te that makes these generalization errors, at best the Fi merely encourages it to do something. I would call you a noob at this point considering you make the assertion that it is Je that it responsible for communication! Ad hominem attack moment....*drum roll*....silly INFJ. INFJ, misunderstanding Fi since the beginning of time.it's not that interesting to me. i appreciate that you want "credible" evidence, facts that you can use to control how we describe what is "actual." but as i've said, that's only useful to prove something happened. it's not really useful to prove that something means something else. with that, you can only falsify things that it is unlikely to mean. or express what it meant for you (which ranges based on well-being from a great Fi skill to a common Fi generalization error that happens especially when the Fi user gets angry).
Wallowing in self-pity itself does not produce authenticity but the articulation of that self-pity and feelings which the judgment has been able to interpret through introspection of perceived data is. Of course that amount of authenticity is limited to the extent of what was discovered and the extent of the judging function's observation and that within the best of its knowledge it is being accurate. I'm willing to bet you are incorrect about being alone in seeing the contradictions others have to deal with. Ignorance and arrogance (do I have to use the silly INFJ line again?) For one, your Ji is tertiary which is Jungian terms the last time I checked is that "you don't know shit about yourself." Perhaps you do, perhaps you don't but I have no way of determining a way how to quantify and communicate those calculations. Why should you expect others to understand you first when you don't even know who you are? With no way of interpreting your inner self effectively, how do you expect others to reach a point where you can conclude that they understand you?or depressive e4 issue? an ability to wallow in self-pity does not produce authenticity. it produces an ability to relate to other's wallowing in self-pity and to understand the pitfalls that come from building a storehouse of negative thoughts and bad habits to cope with the emotional sinking that depressive types know so well. the intention to me feels like bringing others down to your level. i think i do this too sometimes because i feel like i alone see the contradictions that others should have to deal with too. and there's truth to that, just as there's also truth to the fact that i expect others to understand me before i'm willing to do the work to understand them. and that this is a bad habit of mine that at times digs my own grave.
This whole section is just silly. You're making assumptions on the motives of others. This is what makes me mock INFJs almost as much as paranoia.this is something that bothers me. true, you may say, you are childish, or you may say, i find your behavior childish. the latter is not better if you still use a pejorative identity marker that is obviously supposed to be a negative representation. in this case, you are saying others are immature and suggesting that you alone are mature. and they are immature because they do not agree with you. they are emotional like a child and issue "cries" that are not as rational as you presume to be, when you keep your emotions at bay (by sticking to "the facts" that you deem "the facts"). why you see yourself as employing mature emotional communication strategies is simply beyond me. you are affecting them as well but deny your role in doing so. how is this any different? it only works for you because you presume to have access to "reality" that makes you right be default of being the one who is right. this is circular in its own way. and you just want to use typology to justify it rather than using it to clarify the larger pattern that exists outside of you as well.
Is Pi any different? Have you ever completely implemented the entirety of the Pi with your Je? The "truth" becomes determined by what you are able to convert and nothing else.Pe is tricky. ultimately everyone's responsibility is defining what is actual for them. you can't use someone else's Pe. Pe cannot be communicated without Je. it can only be performed. enacted. actualized. as it gets communicated, it loses its sense that it is yours. the truth is organized by what emerges. and you are denying that.
I think the problem here at its core is that Se-inf's are just delusional and paranoid. Your own experiential truth is derived from lack of observation and from patterns which are removed from reality due to their subjective nature and uninterested in confirming whether they should continue to exist. A recipe for a Dale Gribble cake! Pe has a vested interest in the outside world without your own you would be essentially fucked. Every time you dismiss a Pe user you potentially kick yourselves in the balls and tighten the strap on the tin foil hat.your argument is that infjs inferior Se at times is hugely problematic for them and leads to mistakes in judgment regarding the emotions of others? that not attending to the story of where others are coming from leads to poor guesses at times?
or that you've met infjs (including 3w4s, who i believe are enfjs), who exhibit especially negative e3 issues that you do not like so all infjs should realize that they are condemned to be completely full of shit unless they take Pe types word for it that they are wrong much of the time? i mean, what's a concrete situation that you see this happening in?
because MY Pe types tell me that i need to learn to trust myself to determine what is real. and that they're glad to support me when i ask for story help, but that i need to keep trying to become more present on my own, to take responsibility for myself to deem what is real and what is not, so that i can relate to the interiors of others with my own sense of actuality, my own experiential truth. (rather than just submitting to theirs...)
OA hit the nail on the head here to be honest. Ni I have been told makes more fuck ups than INFJs would ever like to admit. All perception is contained within the universe after all, all that is must be contained within its principles and laws. Yet how many times does Ni come to conclusions which just aren't correct which are removed from how the universe works? I've seen Ni users make false assumptions on the motives of others based on their perception which simply cannot be realised or achieved (e.g. someone is sleeping with Ni user's wife even though they are 5000 miles away at the moment the incident supposedly took place.) Why should such perceptions be treated than anything other than garbage to be thrown away? It's not always far-sight but pure non-sight by the sounds of things.but it sure feels like you're just trying to railroad others. if you know you're right, why do you need their confirmation? why do you have to have them see it your way if you won't see it theirs? you're still assuming that Pe IS reality and that Pi is illusory, secondary, and ultimately full of shit. the fact is we are negotiating what the "correct" context is. when you assume that you inherently have it because you believe your "type" is blessed with a greater connection to reality. when your focus on what can better be labeled "actuality" is only to say that you focus on a different scale of perception that is like a hand moving from a distance to right in front of your face. but you miss context because of this near-sightedness as well. this is why it must be negotiated.
furthermore, and this is my reading of what is happening, you create a split that is logically untenable. you perpetuate the j/p bias because you don't grasp the diversity of Je, instead reducing it to a caricature of what it is. Ji focuses on the directly observable. this often results in missing out in the unity that binds things together. especially as you cross over from one scale to another and make logical type errors as a result of domains that are irreducible to each other because the paradigms are simply incommensurable and cannot be bridged by direct observation without also observing the observer.
i don't know how to explain this to you further, but Je functioning is a necessary aspect of all intelligent systems. Je is the recursive language system that binds organizations together across different orders of experience. its usage develops the communicational conditions for perception to be shared and engineered into complex constructions. not just between people, but in the very creation of (self-)consciousness in all forms. you may think this is a secondary point. but you are missing the Je context. even as many infjs readily admit their inferior Se and even provide examples of when it works against them. why this is not enough for you is very strange to try to comprehend.
Secondly, Je is not any better at noticing the unity between two objects than Ji is. It just does it differently. The nuance and subtlety of logic/personal values of Ti and Fi are so precise and so fine they observe everything about the inner concept or idea and that includes how its countless pieces and parts come together into a state of unity. Like I said before, it would probably be best if you assume you do not understand Ji from now on as you clearly do not. However you are correct about Je, but then that's not exactly hard to deduce. Both observe and both are diverse, dare I say equally so.