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  1. #151
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    I love the fact that infs can make acid remarks with so much finesse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    INFJ's are obsessed with following the rules and mastering them. This makes them really good at proper execution, but not at finding solutions outside of the box...
    Ya, it happens.



    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  2. #152
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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    Perhaps it drives others nuts that we get so angsty when we are not liked.


    Its something that annoys me about myself, but I don't know how that affects INFPs, apart from instances of threads like this.
    the formless thing which gives things form!
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  3. #153
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    It was surprising to hear in that last thread that we were ‘telling you that your opinions were wrong’- because if I were to give that kind of feedback myself, the whole point in doing it would be to hear from the other side what’s off about it.
    It strikes me that the same thing is happening here, in this thread, interestingly.

    OA gave her list, and directly after that, fid made her list.

    And the "edge" in OA's post set off INFJ alarm bells to either refute her list, question her motives or dig at what she's trying to prove here. One could even say, to discredit her list.

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Why do you assume that only Fi-doms feel this way? Why would an INFP assume to know how others feel about being understood?
    I don't.

    Do you think that your position is correct? Are INFP correct about all their complaints about INFJs?
    I think it's fair to say I see each individual opinion as just an opinion.

    Is Fi not understood by Fe people?
    It's not.

    Are you correct and certain or could you be mistaken about parts of this?
    I am about 90% certain - some folks who are not wired Fi do demonstrate functional understanding though, and I give credit there.

    Fe is much more relative and context oriented than Fi. Fe has a great deal of uncertainty because of the continually changing context of communication and meaning. This can be experienced as overwhelming anxiety in the face of the massive complexity of people and systems of people which are ever changing. The outside world is dynamic, changing, uncertain, and so any preference that has its focus there will parallel these processes. This is currently not understood. Fe has a strong tendency to internalize negative or positive energy from its environment and Fi has a tendency to project their inner world and feelings onto the outside world.
    Agreed.

    Also why does it play out exactly the opposite in these threads? It is almost always the Fe people tentatively trying to understand their "thick elephant skin" and how their feelings are shadows, etc. I have been impressed with how nice many of them have been when confronted with some condescending comments. I'm the only one here pushing back, and I have less Fe than most here. I'm breaking the rules terribly, but just this one time so far I'm trying it to see what happens.
    Why? Because you're seeing the things that are generally hidden by Fi and this gives us a platform closer to a level playing field.

    You're not breaking any Fi rules, so carry on.

    How do you feel about receiving unvarnished truth?
    It's only one truth. Not THE truth. One voice. I like hearing someone's unvarnished truth. That doesn't make it always fun or easy though.

    I really like hearing INFP perspective when they aren't judgmental, but instead analytical.
    Can you explain this further? Why do you hear personal judgement in the list? One voice of condemnation over a whole type? Even with a disclaimer?

    Realize that many truths expressed here and elsewhere are judgments and criticisms of other people. Who could express such a thing without push back?
    Push-back is ok.

    What reaction are you expecting or desiring? What would be the best reaction to a similar thread in which INFJs made criticisms of INFPs? Answers to that question could be one of the most helpful things to communicate.
    Perhaps that thread has merit in the creation. I encourage someone to start it.

    -----

    Maybe the whole crux of it is to me, everything is subjective. Everything.

    There is nothing concretely objective. Now, I know you need to create an objective truth. I even feel a need to myself, even with that distant Te. But it strikes me that there are just a bunch of opinions, and not much more than that.

    I am aware that my opinion is just one drop of water in an ocean of voices. I don't expect it to be received or interpreted as an objective truth. However, it is my truth and as such, I afford it a measure of respect for what it is.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    I love the fact that infs can make acid remarks with so much finesse.
    I find myself enjoying it, oh how far to the dark side of the force I have fallen! Spitting acid is fun (well not for the recipient) but occasionally I like to turn a sentiment which is a mere slight annoyance at best into a nuclear weapon and detonate it in the middle of a populated area with no prior warning. I did it a few pages back and it really stirred up the Hornets.

  5. #155
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Oh he was NFJ. I’m not convinced he was INFJ- which is what he claimed to be- but he was NFJ. There’s a very distinct cocktail of neurosis in batshit NFJ: whole elaborate and bizarre stories immediately unzip in their heads, and it’s rather unmistakable to anyone who has had to deal with it.

    I know which NFP you’re talking about, though I never read the thread in question and have no idea what actually happened. He wasn’t banned though, right? Since the behavior wasn’t bad enough for the mods to actually ban him, I’m reluctant to say it’s parallel. […just because it’s easier to connect dots and acknowledge similarities with a lesser offender. ]
    Yes, that's why I said it's not a good parallel. You have to pretend it is to make it work. No, he wasn't banned. He left for good though, just as sorenx7 has told me s/he's left for good.

    It's kind of the NFP version of a door-slam. We pick up our toys and go home, because it hurts too much to stick around, and no one seems to care about how we're feeling.

    Practically everything on her list falls in the category of ‘coping mechanism’- some way in which the person denies shared reality and clings to their defense mechanism- which, by definition, is mental illness.
    Well, to my eyes, it's not as extreme as that. Just saying. I think the wording of it and the approach may be more of the issue than the actual content of each point.

    If I had enough animosity in me towards INFPs, I could counterpoint an equivalent list- one that would accurately describe ‘worst case scenario’, behavior so neurotic and riddled with coping mechanisms that most INFPs would not be able to see themselves in it- to illustrate the point we are all trying to make here: “Yes it’s on the spectrum, but that doesn’t mean that all INFJs even begin to relate to it.”
    I realize it would be a lot of effort to create, but it would be great to see and comment on. Any INFJ's game to do this?

    I don’t see it as “what the INFPs here are saying”- I see it as what OA is saying (and specifically said I think it’s unfair of OA).
    Fair enough.

    I don’t think Pe types realize that information needs to pass through something like a Rube Goldberg contraption before I can see it- it has to run through lots of filters before I see it as being *there*. Until it’s run that course, it’s just nonsensical information which isn’t self evident. It’s frustrating to hear Pe types get derogatory or pushy about how something should be ‘clear’ when it isn’t. And Pe’ers can be flat out disparaging about anything that isn’t self-evident to them.
    This is great - will think on this one. It ties into some stuff I've been ruminating on.

    It seems (to me) like saying “he was NFJ AND mentally ill” is a way of saying “he’s on the NFJ spectrum”…..the mentally ill end of the spectrum, but on the NFJ spectrum nonetheless.
    Again, he wasn't the best example to use. However, stating it like that does make your opinion clear.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #156
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Thus, the Special Snowflake Crown.
    Ironically and interestingly, you've chosen some symbols that many of us INFP's find kind of hurtful to apply to us as a group. They are usually employed in a mocking or derogatory fashion, after all, serving to invalidate our opinions.

    Pudding included.

    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #157
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Us INFJ's were like....., stated we didn't really identify with what was going on, there was a lot of other non-infj issues tying into it, but that didn't go over well. Similar to this thread. In the end maybe the 'solution' when someone has so much angst or hurt re. an individual (or several individuals which has then colored their view of an entire type), and hasn't healed from the emotional component yet is to just not do what we naturally want to do, which is try to correct any errors in logic / thinking that drove them to what we may view as an inaccurate perception being brushed across an entire type. Just let them have the perception and call it a day? Let them stomp and say hurtful things, but just keep quiet and only say we're sorry it happened, that sometimes people suck? At the end of the day, I'm not sure that anything more than this accomplishes much of anything.
    @bold: That's exactly the right thing to say. Once their feelings feel "heard" they will be more naturally inclined to return to a balanced state. Self-healing, as it were. Validating the emotions so that the thoughts can thus be addressed behind them.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #158
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    I find myself enjoying it, oh how far to the dark side of the force I have fallen!
    Hahaha.
    Spitting acid is fun (well not for the recipient) but occasionally I like to turn a sentiment which is a mere slight annoyance at best into a nuclear weapon and detonate it in the middle of a populated area with no prior warning. I did it a few pages back and it really stirred up the Hornets.
    Way to get yourself a doorslam.


    It seems to me that many INFPs are able to list people's flaws so easily that it may seem like they hold themselves as a perfect parameter, which is usually not the case, as most INFPs are actually very critical of themselves.
    My dear @Mia. got some hostility because of that.

    INFJs are more careful when they do that... they seem to intuitively do what Neil deGrasse Tyson advocates in this video. Sometimes it seems like they are not voicing their real opinion though.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Hahaha.

    Way to get yourself a doorslam.


    It seems to me that many INFPs are able to list people's flaws so easily that it may seem like they hold themselves as a perfect parameter, which is usually not the case, as most INFPs are actually very critical of themselves.
    My dear @Mia. got some hostility because of that.

    INFJs are more careful when they do that... they seem to intuitively do what Neil deGrasse Tyson advocates in this video. Sometimes it seems like they are not voicing their real opinion though.
    I actually doorslammed a friend of mine a while back which I had never done before. It was a fascinating experience if not a little difficult at the time. I see what its like for judgers now (probably feels different though.) The door is staying closed because I prefer it that way.

    Don't tell anyone but we're major hypocrites, we criticise others even though we know we have these very same flaws in ourselves. We then work at fixing our issues in private. Or maybe that's just me, who knows?

  10. #160
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    ...
    Irrelevant interpretation of what has already been discussed a thousand times before in slightly different permutations aside I will answer truthfully the quoted segment: You completely misunderstand the reasons why which seems to be the whole crux of this beautiful clusterfuck desert we all created and cooked. If they are in the scope of rationalism and reason (where most Pe users are IMHO.) They know you as an individual did not cause said incident (that would be a pretty dumb accusation in itself) but they perceive you as a representative of sorts of the one who did. You are the closest they can come to addressing the perpetrator of the grievance, dare I say even an extension of them. By forcing you to "own up" one of your number can acknowledge the pain the other caused and by extension the hurt party can determine that the perpetrator in theory would be capable of perceiving and acknowledging the pain they caused them. Alternatively it could be that the hurt party wants gratification by seeing their negative views of the perpetrator be validated as correct. One or the other.
    So what you are saying is that directing anger, accusation, and requiring apology from a proxy is a legitimate way to process anger and hurt?...

    *backs away slowly* Seriously, it's okay. I don't need to know where the bodies are buried. I'm going to leave now...

    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

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