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  1. #141
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    Irrelevant interpretation of what has already been discussed a thousand times before in slightly different permutations aside I will answer truthfully the quoted segment: You completely misunderstand the reasons why which seems to be the whole crux of this beautiful clusterfuck desert we all created and cooked. If they are in the scope of rationalism and reason (where most Pe users are IMHO.) They know you as an individual did not cause said incident (that would be a pretty dumb accusation in itself) but they perceive you as a representative of sorts of the one who did. You are the closest they can come to addressing the perpetrator of the grievance, dare I say even an extension of them. By forcing you to "own up" one of your number can acknowledge the pain the other caused and by extension the hurt party can determine that the perpetrator in theory would be capable of perceiving and acknowledging the pain they caused them. Alternatively it could be that the hurt party wants gratification by seeing their negative views of the perpetrator be validated as correct. One or the other.
    Back to being serious...
    The bolded are reasonable when one is hurt and venting. However, in past threads that you might not be aware of, it has happened that the person with a grievance isn't satisfied with "yeah, there are some real monster INFJs out there" or "I've felt really bad when I've hurt someone, maybe your INFJ feels bad, too", but instead wants all of us defined by those four letters to say that we are just as monstrous as the person who hurt them was. When things turn typist, and I think this applies to ANY type being berated, then it needs to be pointed out that those four letters aren't the be all and end all of who someone is.

    When I've drifted towards typism, people have said something to me about it, especially other INFJs. And it made sense to me to curb myself when venting, to make my comments about the person who hurt me and not about everyone who happens to relate to the same four letters. And actually, this goes for ANY stereotypical grouping. A guy hurt me: all guys are scum. A person of a certain ethnic group hurt me: all people of that ethnic group are buttheads. Do they share common traits? Well, all men have penises, and high testosterone, so I guess all men ARE scum. And when you vent that to your male acquaintance and he says "I understand, some men are scum", do you keep after him until he admits he's scum, too? Would he maybe be hurt by the accusations, even though he does understand you're only venting?

    Perhaps, when someone is venting in this manner, it would be best for the group being vented about to stay out of it. However, that sometimes is interpreted as the group taking sides and defending the bad behavior. It's a delicate situation. Especially if others with grievances start escalating the level of emotions. Then you can end up with an angry mob looking for blood. (I exaggerate to make a point.)

    Anyway, for what it's worth, I like you. Your style of give and take doesn't seem to be incompatible with mine.
    Johari / Nohari

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    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  2. #142
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    Irrelevant interpretation of what has already been discussed a thousand times before in slightly different permutations aside I will answer truthfully the quoted segment: You completely misunderstand the reasons why which seems to be the whole crux of this beautiful clusterfuck desert we all created and cooked. If they are in the scope of rationalism and reason (where most Pe users are IMHO.) They know you as an individual did not cause said incident (that would be a pretty dumb accusation in itself) but they perceive you as a representative of sorts of the one who did. You are the closest they can come to addressing the perpetrator of the grievance, dare I say even an extension of them. By forcing you to "own up" one of your number can acknowledge the pain the other caused and by extension the hurt party can determine that the perpetrator in theory would be capable of perceiving and acknowledging the pain they caused them. Alternatively it could be that the hurt party wants gratification by seeing their negative views of the perpetrator be validated as correct. One or the other.
    Wait, so... I’m a little confused because it seems like the bolded area actually agrees with what I wrote, yet the paragraph starts with “you completely misunderstand”.



    (Also, fwiw- like casc, I didn’t see anything negative about this post.)

    eta: A Pe’er here has explained to me that sometimes when Fi goes on a crusade and takes over, it just WANTS resolution from the outside, like a record that’s skipping and can’t move on until SOMEONE gives the resolution that didn’t come from the original person. I can relate to turning to others to find validation in the notion that something was unfair. But the fact that it needs to come wrapped in “okay yes, I do this myself” is the part I don’t understand…..nor do I understand the accusations of denial when we refuse to admit we don't have the same problems as the person in question. Hearing “Wow, that’s not cool” or “That person really shouldn’t have behaved that way” doesn’t seem to cut it.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  3. #143
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Wait, so... I’m a little confused because it seems like the bolded area actually agrees with what I wrote, yet the paragraph starts with “you completely misunderstand”.
    This might actually sum up the difficulties of the INFJ/INFP relationship better than anything I have seen so far.
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  4. #144
    Senior Member flameskull95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    This might actually sum up the difficulties of the INFJ/INFP relationship better than anything I have seen so far.
    ... what prejudice .
    I'm a INFP - The sociopath

    I think I'm either a 4w5, 4w3, 6w5 or 9w1. Most possibly 4w5.

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  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Wait, so... I’m a little confused because it seems like the bolded area actually agrees with what I wrote, yet the paragraph starts with “you completely misunderstand”.


    This one was my fault, I perceived that you had misunderstood what the P type was actually doing when they were blaming you. I did not put my point across that well and then went into full blown ramble mode. My bad.

  6. #146
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flameskull95 View Post
    ... what prejudice .
    Well, if it makes you feel any better, "I agreed with you but then you told me I completely misunderstood" is something I could either hear an INFJ telling an INFP, or an INFP telling an INFJ.
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  7. #147
    Senior Member flameskull95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Well, if it makes you feel any better, "I agreed with you but then you told me I completely misunderstood" is something I could either hear an INFJ telling an INFP, or an INFP telling an INFJ.
    okay, fair enough. Merry Christmas everyone btw ... If that's still relevant aha
    I'm a INFP - The sociopath

    I think I'm either a 4w5, 4w3, 6w5 or 9w1. Most possibly 4w5.

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  8. #148
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    kk I know who you mean ... I'm not sure he's the best example because I was never convinced of his NFJ'ness. (And of course, not the best example perhaps because of his dx.) However, let's say he was for the purpose of me drawing a parallel interpretation. Do you recall a certain ENFP who got very upset in a thread and basically a few folks were involved too to escalate that into a massive (and according to some people, inappropriate) emotional meltdown/response resulting in his reason for leaving the forum? (He hasn't returned either.)
    Oh he was NFJ. I’m not convinced he was INFJ- which is what he claimed to be- but he was NFJ. There’s a very distinct cocktail of neurosis in batshit NFJ: whole elaborate and bizarre stories immediately unzip in their heads, and it’s rather unmistakable to anyone who has had to deal with it.

    I know which NFP you’re talking about, though I never read the thread in question and have no idea what actually happened. He wasn’t banned though, right? Since the behavior wasn’t bad enough for the mods to actually ban him, I’m reluctant to say it’s parallel. […just because it’s easier to connect dots and acknowledge similarities with a lesser offender. ]


    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Really, OA's list is not about someone who is necessarily mentally ill either. Just someone on the spectrum ...
    Practically everything on her list falls in the category of ‘coping mechanism’- some way in which the person denies shared reality and clings to their defense mechanism- which, by definition, is mental illness. While the phrase ‘mental illness’ does usually conjure up stronger associations (e.g. criminally insane, or that the person should be locked up in an institution somewhere because they are a danger to themselves or others), I think it applies in this scenario. There are three NFJs I know who meet more than half the criteria of the list- while only one of them is diagnosed with something, I feel pretty confident all three each have enough mental illness going on to significantly impair the quality of their lives (which they systematically and entirely blame on others). The other INFJs I know- only a couple irl, but I’ve been coming to this forum for a few years now and feel like I’ve interacted with several here enough to include them in this- have little or nothing in common with that list. I really honestly do see it as a ‘how mental illness manifests in INFJs’.

    If I had enough animosity in me towards INFPs, I could counterpoint an equivalent list- one that would accurately describe ‘worst case scenario’, behavior so neurotic and riddled with coping mechanisms that most INFPs would not be able to see themselves in it- to illustrate the point we are all trying to make here: “Yes it’s on the spectrum, but that doesn’t mean that all INFJs even begin to relate to it.”

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    See, that's where it falls apart. That's not what the INFP's here are saying.
    I don’t see it as “what the INFPs here are saying”- I see it as what OA is saying (and specifically said I think it’s unfair of OA).

    Frankly I’m not sure anyone else has said anything particularly offensive. I’ve only barely been following this thread, and only the posts that pertain to the reason I got somewhat hooked- to see if other INFJs ended up fleshing out what it is that bothers me about OA’s usual list and consequent responses. [I wasn’t going to post at all, but hey, someone else pulled the flush handle.] There’s something off about it, it’s vague and hard to place- I just want to understand why it’s rubbing me the wrong way. I think there’s an element of bullying Pe involved (however inadvertent). Some things that state wrote really resonated on this note, like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i think that often times Pe types think things are self-evident that do not appear as self-evident to me and must rely on a ton of assumptions that are sometimes not recognized too. at the same time, i am trying to admit that i recognize that my Pe obliviousness is clearly my own biggest limitation. the thing is, i don't think there's anything that can really be done about it.
    I don’t think Pe types realize that information needs to pass through something like a Rube Goldberg contraption before I can see it- it has to run through lots of filters before I see it as being *there*. Until it’s run that course, it’s just nonsensical information which isn’t self evident. It’s frustrating to hear Pe types get derogatory or pushy about how something should be ‘clear’ when it isn’t. And Pe’ers can be flat out disparaging about anything that isn’t self-evident to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    They're saying what I said above ... can you recognize him in the spectrum, in the INFJ box? And, if you can recognize him, and simply say, "Ya, it happens" it would appear less defensive than dismissing the whole post as irrelevant or taking it personally. (And, saying that, I KNOW it's difficult when it feels you're being painted with these broad brush-strokes that inaccurately portray you as an individual.)

    Hope I'm translating this in a useful way. ??
    It seems (to me) like saying “he was NFJ AND mentally ill” is a way of saying “he’s on the NFJ spectrum”…..the mentally ill end of the spectrum, but on the NFJ spectrum nonetheless. And like Eilonwy wrote, I have in the past, many times, already said “Yeah it happens” to stuff on that list. I have been really quite forthcoming about NFJ pitfalls in the past. But still the criticism that none of the INFJs here will ‘own up’ to being this way themselves surfaces- and that’s the part that’s bizarre to me. Apparently saying “yeah it happens” isn’t enough.

    ETA:
    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    This one was my fault, I perceived that you had misunderstood what the P type was actually doing when they were blaming you. I did not put my point across that well and then went into full blown ramble mode. My bad.
    Your post did add to what I'd written, btw- so it does add helpful clarity. Thanks.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  9. #149
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    I love the fact that infs can make acid remarks with so much finesse.

  10. #150
    morose bourgeoisie
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    INFJ's are obsessed with following the rules and mastering them. This makes them really good at proper execution, but not at finding solutions outside of the box...

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