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  1. #121
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flameskull95 View Post
    It's actually pretty funny (in my own weird mind), I think this is more of a general difference between Ps and Js. Js prefer the stable, while Ps wouldn't mind to sacrifice the stable. And it could also be us INFPs overdoing the 'expression' thing because we aren't used to having such capacity to talk outside, then we do online. We usually never play "games" with people outside in real life. It's much too risky for our fragile little minds to cope with.

    And i really didn't mean to offend. I'm sorry if I came off like that. I guess a lot of people I've met tend to blame a certain function for the way other people are, when it's probably just a subjective thing. And then when I project myself I have to say sorry. But seriously, functions have feelings too ! ...
    You didn't offend Actually, I suspect you make a very good point about INFPs being more forward/harsher/more likely to "play games" online than IRL - I mean that probably applies to various types but it would make a lot of sense for INFPs to have a considerable contrast between online and IRL personas.

    I'll have to think about "functions have feelings too"
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  2. #122
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    I want to add something to my earlier comment about hurting people. I do constantly think about how what I say will be taken, but I don't always see immediately how it might hurt someone. In that case, I do appreciate being told. I want to take responsibility for my actions. I'm human and I do sometimes say or do things without thinking them through. I've found that whenever I deliberately set out to hurt in the past, I felt so much regret afterwards that now I just don't deliberately set out to hurt. I might entertain the thoughts at times, but won't follow through with any action.

    On the other hand, when someone posts about being hurt by an INFJ, I feel bad for them, but I don't feel like I, personally, should be held responsible for someone else's actions. When I was younger, I used to think that I should apologize for all the hurt in the world, whether I caused it or not, but that is an unrealistic and impossible attitude to have (and also a bit megalomaniac/martyr-ish). If there's some comfort or insight I can offer, fine. But I draw the line at taking blame.
    Johari / Nohari

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    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  3. #123
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    But you are more likely to hear "I don't care if I hurt her" from me than "no, I absolutely did not hurt her." How am I supposed to know for sure if I hurt her or not, unless she tells me, and then I wouldn't deny it...
    I’m pretty sure I know what OA is talking about. She's not talking about when someone has already taken advantage of our compassion, and so gets cut off because there's no point in continuing to extend that person credit. She's referring to people who can't see themselves causing hurt in the first place.

    The thing is- people get upset for all sorts of reasons, and it’s pretty common to blame people for hurt feelings/to see the source of hurt outside ourselves. And with particular INFJs who are doing this- but don’t see themselves doing it- they see it happening, but they see it as happening in other people. Someone else says “that hurts my feelings” -> they access their own memory for what “that hurts my feelings” means, and if what comes up isn’t ‘genuine reflection/assessment of feelings’ but rather ‘someone needing to instantly assign a cause of pain to something external’…..then that’s what they assume they’re seeing. Like that friend I’ve brought up many times- Duchess Insano- there were many, many times she belittled what I was going through because she saw “people only claim something is hurtful because they mindlessly *want* attention, but it isn’t based on genuine reflection”- because so little of her own experience of the world is based on genuine reflection and because she was/is so mindlessly ruled by her insatiable craving for attention (so she sees that as being the moving force behind everything everyone else is doing, because defense mechanisms prevent her from realizing it’s something in her and not other people). This is something that all people do, but I will concede that NFJs do it with panache.

    Just a couple years ago there was a perfect example of the things in OA’s list right here in the forum. For the few months prior to being banned he absolutely matched practically everything on OA’s list; paranoia about ‘authority’ and power dynamics, making himself out to be a ‘victim’ when he was actually a raging bully, he systematically projected all the horrible aspects of himself on other people and delusionally felt compelled to ‘call them on it’. Also: this person publicly admitted to being diagnosed with Personality Disorder, and was a textbook ‘unhealthy’ 6w5 counterphobic. He didn’t do this stuff because he’s NFJ, he did it because he’s NFJ AND mentally ill.

    I think that it’s really unfair of OA to go about it the way she is- fid did a good job of explaining why. It’s laden with traps and it’s short-sighted, it’s basically saying “I’m just curious to see how many INFJs are self aware enough to see this going on inside themselves.” It’s unfair because what she’s describing specifically is NOT necessarily part of an INFJ’s experience. There are quite a few INFJs who never distort truth/accountability that much in the first place- nowhere near it- so of course they can’t relate to the list OA posted. To imply ‘whether or not a person can relate to the *truth* in those posts is a measure of their self awareness’ is positing some really crappy things in the ‘universal INFJ experience’ that seriously don’t belong there. To say that most INFJs should be able to relate to that list enough to ‘own up’ to some of it is just kinda delusional in itself. It’s like equating the common cold with the Bubonic Plague because both are sicknesses: most people can relate to having the common cold, very few people can relate to having the Bubonic Plague. Telling someone who has had the common cold they aren’t very ‘self-aware’ if they don’t own up to being able to describe having the Bubonic Plague is just…..I don’t even know, but it seems like that’s what’s going on here.

    It’s really bizarre to me- there have been more than a couple Pe’ers who show up here believing that INFJs here should ‘own up’ to the really bad behavior of some other INFJ somewhere. I don’t understand it, but it’s happened more than a couple of times. As if “The INFJ who did this refuses to take accountability! I’m hurting so SOMEONE MUST TAKE ACCOUNTABILITY! …YOU THERE, INFJ! BOW DOWN AND TAKE ACCOUNTABILITY FOR WHAT THIS OTHER INFJ DID TO ME!” At least that’s how it looks from the outside. I don’t get it.

    I could go on with theories about how different defense mechanisms in other types are just as delusional and throw just as much shit in the pool- to emphasize the point that NFJs do not corner the market in this regard, and that whether or not someone is a positive influence in others’ lives has FAR less to do with ‘type’ than personal self awareness….but I hope it goes without saying.
    Last edited by Z Buck McFate; 12-23-2012 at 08:37 PM. Reason: fix grammar
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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    It’s really bizarre to me- there have been more than a couple Pe’ers who show up here believing that INFJs here should ‘own up’ to the really bad behavior of some other INFJ somewhere. I don’t understand it, but it’s happened more than a couple of times. As if “The INFJ who did this refuses to take accountability! I’m hurting so SOMEONE MUST TAKE ACCOUNTABILITY! …YOU THERE, INFJ! BOW DOWN AND TAKE ACCOUNTABILITY FOR WHAT THIS OTHER INFJ DID TO ME!” At least that’s how it looks from the outside. I don’t get it.
    If you don't want to hear me ramble on skip to paragraph 3. It's quite obvious that the vortex that constitutes the inner world of the INFJ makes you blind as all it cares about is impersonal data, the connections between them and the patterns between them fuelling the drive to mobilise the Fe to the outside world. In that most exciting march to war does the warrior stop to ask on who he is, why he fights and whether the fight is just? Does he let his mind judge and criticise him or just his general or his country? Is there any critique of the self? That is IMHO the perception of the judger to the perceiver (it is essentially a caricature of mine made in jest though I am wary of making the claim from not seeing the INFJ insides with a first hand glance.)

    Compare that to the perceiver who has a solid core which rules the inner world with an iron fist. For the Fi user it demands that all that is known, all the user believes or has done be put under the microscope and given an honest evaluation on whether it is congruent with who you are and what you believe. Sooner or later this process will ruthlessly force you to face and admit when you have shamed yourself, when you have failed what you value and when you are not what you would ideally like to be. If you are scum who betrays what you believe, it will force you to acknowledge you are scum. If you are mentally ill, narcissistic or twisted you will eventually be made aware of these and there is nowhere to hide when you do. The Ji function is hypercritical probably beyond anything else that exists. To the eye of the Ji-dom which knows of only this reality the temptation to call anything that does not know it as well ignorant to the follies of the self if always there, whether justified or not. I have seen plenty of J types in my time who seem to be truly oblivious to their personal faults and failings as if it truly does not compute in their mind outside of a barely audible echo in whatever fills up their inner world.

    Irrelevant interpretation of what has already been discussed a thousand times before in slightly different permutations aside I will answer truthfully the quoted segment: You completely misunderstand the reasons why which seems to be the whole crux of this beautiful clusterfuck desert we all created and cooked. If they are in the scope of rationalism and reason (where most Pe users are IMHO.) They know you as an individual did not cause said incident (that would be a pretty dumb accusation in itself) but they perceive you as a representative of sorts of the one who did. You are the closest they can come to addressing the perpetrator of the grievance, dare I say even an extension of them. By forcing you to "own up" one of your number can acknowledge the pain the other caused and by extension the hurt party can determine that the perpetrator in theory would be capable of perceiving and acknowledging the pain they caused them. Alternatively it could be that the hurt party wants gratification by seeing their negative views of the perpetrator be validated as correct. One or the other.

  5. #125
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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  6. #126
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    x2 and i'm also enfp 7w8

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I've got to say that I find this thread fascinating. It really gets at the heart of how different Fe/Fi worldviews can be while at the same time showing how much INFPs and INFJs have in common. And, as an ENFP, I can watch from the sidelines without having to sully myself in the imbroglio.

    I didn't know I could learn so much from watching two other types duke it out. Carry on.


  7. #127
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    The Ji function is hypercritical probably beyond anything else that exists.


    I, as a representative of the lowly INFJs, and a user of Je, do bequeath upon the self-tortured Ji users, the Crown of the Special Snowflake. Wear it with pride. It is a heavy burden to bear.










    In case you're unsure how to take this, it is meant in fun. Things are getting way too serious again. Besides, I didn't have any pudding to distract you with.
    Johari / Nohari

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    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  8. #128
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Just a couple years ago there was a perfect example of the things in OA’s list right here in the forum. For the few months prior to being banned he absolutely matched practically everything on OA’s list; paranoia about ‘authority’ and power dynamics, making himself out to be a ‘victim’ when he was actually a raging bully, he systematically projected all the horrible aspects of himself on other people and delusionally felt compelled to ‘call them on it’. Also: this person publicly admitted to being diagnosed with Personality Disorder, and was a textbook ‘unhealthy’ 6w5 counterphobic. He didn’t do this stuff because he’s NFJ, he did it because he’s NFJ AND mentally ill.
    kk I know who you mean ... I'm not sure he's the best example because I was never convinced of his NFJ'ness. (And of course, not the best example perhaps because of his dx.) However, let's say he was for the purpose of me drawing a parallel interpretation. Do you recall a certain ENFP who got very upset in a thread and basically a few folks were involved too to escalate that into a massive (and according to some people, inappropriate) emotional meltdown/response resulting in his reason for leaving the forum? (He hasn't returned either.)

    You're not that guy, and I'm not that guy. But I can see him in the spectrum of NFP'ness. Can you see your guy in the dimensionality of NFJ'ness? As opposed to just a bunch of dots bunched up in a 3D box, where no one's connected, can you see him in the box connected to you even by a far association? Think of all the nuances here ... the way he wrote his posts, any feeling of familiarity you might have had over the course of his foruming ... you know what a "good" INFJ looks like, and what a "bad" NFJ looks like, eh? It's that connection folks are looking to see the other INFJ's here recognize and even say, "Ya, it happens" ... not that anyone here is specifically that person.

    Really, OA's list is not about someone who is necessarily mentally ill either. Just someone on the spectrum ...

    Does that help?

    I think that it’s really unfair of OA to go about it the way she is- fid did a good job of explaining why. It’s laden with traps and it’s short-sighted, it’s basically saying “I’m just curious to see how many INFJs are self aware enough to see this going on inside themselves.”
    See, that's where it falls apart. That's not what the INFP's here are saying. They're saying what I said above ... can you recognize him in the spectrum, in the INFJ box? And, if you can recognize him, and simply say, "Ya, it happens" it would appear less defensive than dismissing the whole post as irrelevant or taking it personally. (And, saying that, I KNOW it's difficult when it feels you're being painted with these broad brush-strokes that inaccurately portray you as an individual.)

    Hope I'm translating this in a useful way. ??
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #129
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I don't think there's anything wrong with comparing our different perspectives, even if it causes a few waves. Not that pudding isn't a welcome addition to any gathering!!!

    To me, it feels like some Fi users assume that Fe users are only looking to others to tell them what they should think and are mindlessly going into battle when that truly is not the case. We may have differing criteria, with different emphasis on what we deem important, but it doesn't mean that there isn't any respectable criteria for why we act as we do. I think every type has different ways of deluding themselves about their faults and also has different blindspots, which is why we need a balance of different perspectives in the world. They work as a check and balance system.

    INFJs tend too much towards creating smooth sailing, spend too much trying to figure out the big picture, write off useful information because of its source, or overassume that some change won't happen and therefore the conflict is not worth engaging in. These tendencies can come at the expense of getting to the root of dealing with a problem. On the other hand, I think those same skills can make them good mediators, thoughtful analysts, and less likely to wade in prematurely. At the same time, I've observed some Fi users who are willing to deal with the problem and fight for something if it is important, they are better able to remain unaffected by outside influences, and they are able to place a value on each individual person's contributions and feelings in a way I can't, but they don't always consider how the delivery will affect their ability to effect change in an unjust situation. Really, both perspectives are necessary if the right outcome is to be achieved.

  10. #130
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post


    I, as a representative of the lowly INFJs, and a user of Je, do bequeath upon the self-tortured Ji users, the Crown of the Special Snowflake. Wear it with pride. It is a heavy burden to bear.










    In case you're unsure how to take this, it is meant in fun. Things are getting way too serious again. Besides, I didn't have any pudding to distract you with.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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