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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Disrupting social harmony and group ethics just for a bit of fun, laughs, and "let's see what happens now" is a big fat waste of time, however, and just creates a lot of debris to sort through.

    But hey, I've got that awful auxiliary function, so what do I know.
    You can disrupt social harmony for a number of reasons. In my case "for the lulz" is usually one of the lesser reasons (unless I'm trolling.) Normally however its often with the intent that the other participants will grow from all this; tearing down something decreipt so something I would define as "better" could exist. Debris is not inherently bad.

  2. #92
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    You can disrupt social harmony for a number of reasons. In my case "for the lulz" is usually one of the lesser reasons (unless I'm trolling.) Normally however its often with the intent that the other participants will grow from all this; tearing down something decreipt so something I would define as "better" could exist. Debris is not inherently bad.
    Sure. I can see that. Characterizing all Fe/social harmony as ass-kissing, however, isn't helpful.

    And btw, tearing others down so that "they will grow from it" COULD be characterized as every bit as condescending and superior as all the "Fe is right" stuff that INFJs supposedly strew left, right and center.
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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Sure. I can see that. Characterizing all Fe/social harmony as ass-kissing, however, isn't helpful.

    And btw, tearing others down so that "they will grow from it" COULD be characterized as every bit as condescending and superior as all the "Fe is right" stuff that INFJs supposedly strew left, right and center.
    I will be honest here I was trolling a bit with the Fe = ass kissing part. My mother is an ESFJ and she most certainly does not kiss my ass! Plenty of attention seeking and guilt tripping. It does not work on me however. However ass kissing is definately in Fe's arsenal if the situation requires it me thinks.

    I will admit I am arrogant and often presumptious and condescending. My decisions to break social harmony are not so much for their benefit but for my own: to guide them towards a vision of what I would like to see them become. I make no attempt to hide that its all to bring things in line with my inner ideals and what they think and believe is of secondary importance (though I would consider their point of view for the purpose to help examine my own in new perspectives and angles.)

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Sure. I can see that. Characterizing all Fe/social harmony as ass-kissing, however, isn't helpful.

    And btw, tearing others down so that "they will grow from it" COULD be characterized as every bit as condescending and superior as all the "Fe is right" stuff that INFJs supposedly strew left, right and center.
    I will be honest here I was trolling a bit with the Fe = ass kissing part. My mother is an ESFJ and she most certainly does not kiss my ass! Plenty of attention seeking and guilt tripping. It does not work on me however. However ass kissing is definately in Fe's arsenal if the situation requires it me thinks.

    I will admit I am arrogant and often presumptious and condescending. My decisions to break social harmony are not so much for their benefit but for my own: to guide them towards a vision of what I would like to see them become. I make no attempt to hide that its all to bring things in line with my inner ideals and what they think and believe is of secondary importance (though I would consider their point of view for the purpose to help examine my own in new perspectives and angles.) I am doing what every human does but I am not covering it up. I have encountered a number of Fe users who would acknowledge this in themselves.

  5. #95
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    Oddly enough though the INTP INTJ rivalry has its history of bad blood the blood feud doesn't seem to run this deep.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Has there ever been a thread where INFJs or Fe target INFPs or Fi for complaints? Or is it typically the reverse?
    It's always always the reverse.

    Because Fi is based on personal values which have to be sincere though might not always be what should be. And personal values trump whatever it is that Fe stands for - which by the way is mostly manipulation.

    What I posted isn't what I meant one should note.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    Oddly enough though the INTP INTJ rivalry has its history of bad blood the blood feud doesn't seem to run this deep.

    It's always always the reverse.

    Because Fi is based on personal values which have to be sincere though might not always be what should be. And personal values trump whatever it is that Fe stands for - which by the way is mostly manipulation.

    What I posted isn't what I meant one should note.
    What did you mean then?
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  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    What did you mean then?
    It's the general attitude NFPs seem to have at Fe users which I was mocking.

  8. #98
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    Vicki Jo, whom I don't necessarily trust intellectually, but who is supposedly an expert, describes the INFP as the most judgmental type. When I heard that it annoyed me because I refused to believe it possible, but the prevalence of these threads brings that comment back to mind and makes me wonder why she came to that conclusion. I read a lot more criticisms of others than self in these thread.

    My only complaint against the INFP is against the specific individuals who make unreasonable criticisms of others. I realize they may feel like they are banging their head against a wall to have their inner world understood, but when expressing criticism, it is not the wall such a person is banging their head against - it is another person's head. That is why people say, Ouch. Sorry you are frustrated, but it's time to stop doing that. Go find an actual wall.

    Edit: @OrangeAppled I tried to find your comment again where you said that you thought listing a quote of criticisms would place distance and make the discussion more theoretical. The problem is that the list is not necessarily credible. It is just another person's impressions based also on the internet memes associated with INFJ. If one refuses the psychic demigod meme, there could also be reason to reject some of the negative memes. The list is problematic and not because it is negative, but because it actually describes some specific personality disorders. If someone has those traits they are not necessarily INFJ, they have one of the attachment disorders. The percentage of people with those disorders is higher than the percentage of INFJs in the world. Confirmation bias can cause people to label anyone with that disorder as an INFJ. I am brutally aware of my flaws, but have zero intention of sharing them here because I don't find the thread all that honest or about learning. That's not my impression of it, and of course I'm not saying that it isn't a sincere learning environment for some.

    @PeaceBaby - you asked why this thread bothered me so much, and I had to think about that because I don't often react online. I think part of it is that I don't personally have negative abstract lists of complaints against INFPs. If anything I idealize the type. I also find in working with special needs individuals with emotional and physical issues, as well as working with children that while it is important to examine flaws, people tend to become whatever they spend their time and energy fixating on. Because of this I focus on the positive - especially in the generalized realm. Constructive criticism tends to be specific and accompanied by specific steps that make it possible to correct the problem. There is so much negativity in general and it seems like the majority of it involves people criticizing someone else online.

    I was also trying to think about my personal experience with Fi-doms. I consistently adore them irl and don't have much in the way of criticisms of them. I do have a few in my experience who have periodically said scathing things to me out of the blue during a difficult time in their life, and then it goes back to normal. I always submit them and apologize. I find the dynamic one in which I walk on eggshells and by nature have to submit to whatever they primarily feel if I want a relationship with them. My complete absence of push-back irl has influenced me to try to push back here to see what happens. Your reaction was really sweet and honest. I think overall it doesn't go well.

    So much of what is expressed here as criticisms of INFJ is exactly what I have experienced from INFP when they are in some way in the position of authority or admiration. EXCEPT for that horrid list of mental dysfunction traits originally listed. INFPs are no more like that than INFJs.
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  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Vicki Jo, whom I don't necessarily trust intellectually, but who is supposedly an expert, describes the INFP as the most judgmental type. When I heard that it annoyed me because I refused to believe it possible, but the prevalence of these threads brings that comment back to mind and makes me wonder why she came to that conclusion. I read a lot more criticisms of others than self in these thread.

    My only complaint against the INFP is against the specific individuals who make unreasonable criticisms of others. I realize they may feel like they are banging their head against a wall to have their inner world understood, but when expressing criticism, it is not the wall such a person is banging their head against - it is another person's head. That is why people say, Ouch. Sorry you are frustrated, but it's time to stop doing that. Go find an actual wall.
    IMHO Vicki Jo is an idiot. I've even told her that (which she ignored.) Where in the cognitive functions would INFPs be the essence of being the most judgmental type? If its the Fi-dom (which cares more about judging for and of the self anyway) then we share that equally with ISFP. The person who claimed she was biased was probably correct.

    As for the outburst against others it is in my experience always been because said person has been either the direct cause or the straw which broke the Camel's back. For the latter this could be some poor sod who spoke to me when I was boiling over and then asked if I was ok or commented on my attitude. Normally if I start I will lash out at anyone who attempts to derail me, think a saucepan on the stove full up to the brim with boiling water. If you try and move it then be aware of the risks because it will hurt if it spills! Leave them alone to chill out unless they want to stir the pot and criticise someone for something.

  10. #100
    Senior Member flameskull95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    I will be honest here I was trolling a bit with the Fe = ass kissing part. My mother is an ESFJ and she most certainly does not kiss my ass! Plenty of attention seeking and guilt tripping. It does not work on me however. However ass kissing is definately in Fe's arsenal if the situation requires it me thinks.

    I will admit I am arrogant and often presumptious and condescending. My decisions to break social harmony are not so much for their benefit but for my own: to guide them towards a vision of what I would like to see them become. I make no attempt to hide that its all to bring things in line with my inner ideals and what they think and believe is of secondary importance (though I would consider their point of view for the purpose to help examine my own in new perspectives and angles.) I am doing what every human does but I am not covering it up. I have encountered a number of Fe users who would acknowledge this in themselves.
    Hey. My mum's an ESFJ too. I suspect. Great people, frustrating sometimes, never stops talking. But good people. I mean they never* stop talking. Never. ... Great people.

    But I get what you mean with the guilt tripping, she would parade the whole family on a list of things that she does almost every day, and says "oh I was just saying" whenever someone would question whether she was mad at us or not. She's pretty intellectual though, strong Te I propose.

    Anyway, I guess the Fe is smothering in that case, but I don't think that's the case for INFJs at all. And I disagree if you're trying to relate that to INFJs. For example, ENFPs use Fi in a different sense to INFPs, and that's important to know. It's more about the connections in the type processes rather than the individual processes themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    IMHO Vicki Jo is an idiot. I've even told her that (which she ignored.) Where in the cognitive functions would INFPs be the essence of being the most judgmental type? If its the Fi-dom (which cares more about judging for and of the self anyway) then we share that equally with ISFP. The person who claimed she was biased was probably correct.

    As for the outburst against others it is in my experience always been because said person has been either the direct cause or the straw which broke the Camel's back. For the latter this could be some poor sod who spoke to me when I was boiling over and then asked if I was ok or commented on my attitude. Normally if I start I will lash out at anyone who attempts to derail me, think a saucepan on the stove full up to the brim with boiling water. If you try and move it then be aware of the risks because it will hurt if it spills! Leave them alone to chill out unless they want to stir the pot and criticise someone for something.

    I wouldn't call anyone an idiot because their understandings don't comply with mine. I think you've got the same thing wrong here too, functions work in tandem and not just each individually. ISFP is much more 'in the now' with the (Fi-Se) relationship and therefore, he/she would be more inclined to be more in touch with the immediate situation or experiences, and that I think would make him/her less likely to form judgments, maybe intense speculations/paranoia due to their Fi-Ni relationship. I think an INFP having the Fi-Si relationship would be mixing Si's "this is how it has always been" with Fi's "this is how I feel about it" making "this is how I feel it will always be" - voila! an Fi-based judgement - and like in your case, how you called Vicki Jo an 'idiot', - they're usually negative because domtert relationships are usually negative.

    On another note, the "stirring" the pot thing - nothing new.
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