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  1. #11
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I've never really had trouble with this at all, actually. Maybe when I was younger and cannot remember..

    I tend to not ask for things that aren't necessary in the first place.. if I need help with something, the word 'need' is key and necessary and essential tasks don't really have luxuries like reservations. I'm quite generous when it comes to friends and family, and since I don't take advantage of their kindness it puts me in a rather easy position emotionally to set myself up for success regarding asking for assistance.
    My 17 yo son is an enfp and his perspective is very much like yours....I think because I grew up in an environment of "scarcity" I didnt feel as though I had those others to ask for help-or when I did ask, it was filled with emotional bribery and even a touch of emotional vampirism?? (if that makes sense). Part of the reason my INTJ DIL can help is he does so in an almost non-emotive way...he just steps in and does things with no strings attached..

    I suspect my notion of "need" may be calibrated incorrectly...

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    What I have trouble with, though, is the idea of letting people into my personal space. I recently asked for help from a friend because I trusted him and had no other choice, but I struggled with asking not because I was worried about him helping me or not, or because I was embarrassed... but simply because I would have to explain the situation and allow him into my personal, private matters. The situation called for it. I wasn't really thrilled about that...
    yes, this makes me cringe...

  2. #12
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    I can relate, I am fiercely independent, I do not want to depend upon another for my existence.

    Knowing your own limits is an important life skill. Admitting those limits does not indicate a lack of competence - it shows awareness and humility and that a person values the outcome more than their own pride.
    I really identify with these points.

    On the one hand, I am an extremely independent person. On the other hand, I realized somewhere along the way that we simply can't do everything ourselves. It's impossible. A key catalyst for all of this was my work. As I started managing people, I was forced to ask people to help. At the beginning, I was arrogant enough to think I could do things better than others in a significant majority of situations and it was uncomfortable for me to ask others to help. It felt like some kind of "compromise" because they wouldn't do as good of a job as I would. It was demeaning to them because I didn't appreciate their contribution enough or didn't know how to coach or direct them. It was a painful transition because at the beginning, I don't think I was very good at it, but I quickly was forced into the realization that there are a lot of things that others did well that I didn't do so well and that it was a lot easier and more effective to operate this way. Once I got used to delegating, I struggled then with how I best could contribute personally vs. delegating everything and on the other hand, making sure the most important things were getting done. As time went on, I began to figure out where my contributions would be worthwhile and where it was best to stay out of the way. Somewhere along that journey, I also began to realize how I could team better with my peers as well - how to realize what they were good at, what I was good at, and collaborate effectively. It's still something I work on in all honesty. Pride and fear sometimes get in my way.

    As much as INTJs pride themselves on how independent they are, to some extent, the concept is a bit of a myth. We are all interdependent whether we like it or not. The one thing INTJs do realize is where we lack competence. We know what we don't know. What we are not always as good at is what to do with that knowledge. It doesn't necessarily mean you entirely walk away.

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  3. #13
    garbage
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    Yup. Part of it is a lack of truly reliable people (plenty of people, but I have insanely high standards for "reliable"); part of it is my own stubborn insistence and pride and the need to validate my own worth; part is the need for control over my own space; part of it is the IOU factor.

    The biggest factor for me, though, is the principle of personal responsibility ("I made my bed, I lie in it") and self-reliance taken to some (possibly stupid) extreme.

    Delegation (on the job, etc.) is a related concept. That's much easier for me, possibly because I ensure that my team and I are working toward the same goals.
    Last edited by garbage; 11-17-2012 at 09:20 AM.

  4. #14
    Kraken down on piracy Lux's Avatar
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    I totally identify with your point in the OP. I'll identify with a work perspective though, since that is where I have boundary issues. My job is to basically make sure that everything runs smoothly among many other things, I have to wear a lot of hats in my career. I realized that I had two options: I can either do it all myself and work 80 + hours a week which interferes with my personal life, or, I can delegate to competent people who will do the job correctly.

    I started by doing all the work myself, that didn't make me happy, I was stressed and not sleeping, etc. So I realized I needed to find people that I trusted to do what I could do. Problem was I felt bad asking them.. it felt like I was slacking and then I thought they'd look down on me for being needy... and also, I didn't see anyone that had had the experience to do what I had to do.

    I started to look at it a different way: I looked at it as an opportunity to replicate myself and to teach someone a new skill to further their career by enhancing their value within the company. I trained and coached people to do what I do how I would do it. So now (over time) I have several people that can do different things to maintain our operations for those times that they need to. The best part is that they feel needed and respected and competent because they are. I realized that people like being needed and trusted. Not that I didn't know that, but it was reinforced. It was a win / win for me, for them, and the company. Is that an option for you, to train hand picked people and teach them a new skill?
    "It is not length of life, but depth of life." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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  5. #15
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I really identify with these points.

    On the one hand, I am an extremely independent person. On the other hand, I realized somewhere along the way that we simply can't do everything ourselves. It's impossible. A key catalyst for all of this was my work. As I started managing people, I was forced to ask people to help. At the beginning, I was arrogant enough to think I could do things better than others in a significant majority of situations and it was uncomfortable for me to ask others to help. It felt like some kind of "compromise" because they wouldn't do as good of a job as I would. It was demeaning to them because I didn't appreciate their contribution enough or didn't know how to coach or direct them. It was a painful transition because at the beginning, I don't think I was very good at it, but I quickly was forced into the realization that there are a lot of things that others did well that I didn't do so well and that it was a lot easier and more effective to operate this way. Once I got used to delegating, I struggled then with how I best could contribute personally vs. delegating everything and on the other hand, making sure the most important things were getting done. As time went on, I began to figure out where my contributions would be worthwhile and where it was best to stay out of the way. Somewhere along that journey, I also began to realize how I could team better with my peers as well - how to realize what they were good at, what I was good at, and collaborate effectively. It's still something I work on in all honesty. Pride and fear sometimes get in my way.

    As much as INTJs pride themselves on how independent they are, to some extent, the concept is a bit of a myth. We are all interdependent whether we like it or not. The one thing INTJs do realize is where we lack competence. We know what we don't know. What we are not always as good at is what to do with that knowledge. It doesn't necessarily mean you entirely walk away.

    Excellent points....

    I'm in the same boat- at work and professionally. I've realized the win-win of 'relying' on others, especially when it's their strength and pleasure to help you- even if it's done on their terms.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Does anyone else have this problem?

    I really, really hate having to ask for help from others.
    +1

  7. #17
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    As much as I like to be independent, I am now taking a statistics course in college. That's pretty much cured me of being afraid to ask for help.

  8. #18
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    I relate.

  9. #19
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I think because I grew up in an environment of "scarcity" I didnt feel as though I had those others to ask for help-or when I did ask, it was filled with emotional bribery and even a touch of emotional vampirism?? (if that makes sense). Part of the reason my INTJ DIL can help is he does so in an almost non-emotive way...he just steps in and does things with no strings attached..
    Personally, this is my own biggest obstacle with asking for help. If it’s in a work environment and it’s understood that it’s part of someone’s job to help when I ask for it, then I’m not quite as reluctant because I can compartmentalize and not really need co-workers to like me (I need to be seen as reasonable, but I can cope okay with ‘curmudgeonly’). But on a personal level, I’m not comfortable with asking for help until I’ve observed enough about the person to see whether or not they attach some kind of obligation when they help people. Some people attach really bizarre strings when they help you, without realizing it isn’t ‘common sense’- and then they take out their aggression (when those expectations aren’t met, they feel taken for granted for having helped you in the first place) in weird ways. I’d rather just do things myself if there’s the slightest chance the other person will feel like I owe them *something* (which is not made explicit, but somehow supposed to be *understood*). I have to trust that someone is aware enough of this kind of thing going on in themselves- that they can be straightforward if asked about it- before I trust them enough to ask for their help.

    eta: Outside of this^ though, I also have a hard time balancing what I personally consider an ‘interruption’ with the way other people process information and I end up with something that kinda backfires on me. It agitates me when someone asks for help just because I don’t appear outwardly busy- as if being physically busy is an accurate way to assess whether or not I’m presently engaged with something. In a perfect world where everyone thinks like me- when someone isn’t so engaged with some internal task that they can help, they notice other people having a heftier workload and offer to assist (or just ask if they need assistance when/where windows of opportunity are open)…..that way I never have to worry about ‘interrupting’ their thought process, because I tend to project the same desire to not be ‘interrupted’ in other people. But then I’m left in an awkward position when I can’t tell if they aren’t helping me (or haven’t offered to help) because they’re distracted with something going on in their head or if they aren’t helping simply because they don’t operate like me and would be more than willing but need to be explicitly asked. So I can relate to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    There is some notion that if they see I am doing a task and I need help, they will help share part of the burden without my having to ask. They will not only offer, but insist to help. But if I have to ask, then likely they did not want to help in the first place and I am putting a burden on them by asking or getting a favor to which I will owe them something for it....like helping has turned into a system of bartering, when it should be one of giving.... If I have to actually ask, then I sometimes feel even resentful-why should I have to ask for help when it is obvious that I need help?
    There’s a sort of dance involved in getting used to people, and this^ frustration is part of it, where I slowly pick up on the extent to which I need to be explicit about certain things vs. which things are understood. Once a precedent is set with someone it gets much easier to get things done around them.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  10. #20
    Glycerine
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    Same here. Sometimes it is just better to ask for help to stop the shit from hitting the fan because a little help here and there diffuses or halts "the straw that broke the camel's back" type situations where things seem to fall apart. The hard part can be knowing exactly when and occasionally how one needs the help. At least for me, there is a sense of vulnerability and loss of control that I hate when I ask for help.

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