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  1. #71
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Based on what you have presented in this thread thus far, including your essay on 'why suicide is illogical', I personally wouldn't rule-out 'Feeler' yet. NF maybe. I haven't seen anything that stands-out to me as being distinctly NF (imo)...but 'Feeler' could probably stand some further consideration.
    (And yet the OP sounds INTP?)

    Ok, cool. Well I'm definitely N, and I'm definitely Fe.

  2. #72
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I believe there's a difference between a machine that is operating in the moment versus a life that one can live fully and fully invest in.
    So you don't believe life has consistent and absolute value?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    If I didn't, I'd condone slavery (for example)
    So you do believe life has consistent and absolute value?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I choose to believe for myself that people are more than machines and believe that our choice to live defines our lives -- and I'm not sure why "going through the motions of life" is better than death, if one isn't living.
    I'm not advocating "going through the motions of life." If someone is dead they don't have the choice to live life to the fullest or go thought the motions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Are you someone who enjoyed the movie Braveheart? It doesn't sound like you would, if you can't see my point.
    Braveheart was murdered/executed. Also, didn't he actually turn down poison or seditives?
    Maybe you were getting at something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    As far as your comment goes, if you believe life has a "consistent and absolute value," then can you please quantify for us in a consistent and absolute way what that value is?
    You don't seriously believe values must be quantifiable do you?
    I can't imagine all the values you hold are quantifiable.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm glad you feel competent enough to make that decision for them just because it happened to work for you.
    What decision am I making for other people?
    Last edited by Beorn; 10-05-2012 at 09:18 AM. Reason: I added a point
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  3. #73
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    So you don't believe life has consistent and absolute value?

    So you do believe life has consistent and absolute value?
    I don't see the point in repeating my answers when you've avoided the questions I asked of you. You at least need to ante up, before you can call.

    I'm not advocating "going through the motions of life." If someone is dead they don't have the choice to live life to the fullest or go thought the motions.
    Interestingly, that's exactly my point: They should have the choice --their choice, not YOUR choice.


    Braveheart was murdered/executed. Also, didn't he actually turn down poison or seditives?
    Maybe you were getting at something else.
    Apparently I was. I also suspect you're smart enough to figure out what it was, without me having to waste more time explaining the obvious.

    You don't seriously believe values must be quantifiable do you?
    I can't imagine all the values you hold are quantifiable.
    So you believe that life is consistent and has absolute value (which means you should be able to quantify it, if it is consistent and absolute, by definition), but you either can't do so or refuse to do so.

    Hey, come on, this is your big chance! Spell it out for everyone. I purposefully set you up to explain what this "absolute value" is, so that everyone could follow you... and I was even hoping you had some kind of magical absolute answer... and now you're backing off. Disappointing.

    What decision am I making for other people?
    srsly?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #74
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    First of all, let me say this has been a very confusing conversation. I have been defending my overall framework without discussing real specific policy. You seem to want to attack my framework without offering an alternative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I don't see the point in repeating my answers when you've avoided the questions I asked of you. You at least need to ante up, before you can call.
    I think I've set forth my framework in as coherent a fashion as I'm capable of. Any questions I have left unanswered were really just arguments cloaked as questions and I think I've answered those arguments.

    Seriously, I don't understand your framework of beliefs you're working from.

    Is there a consistent and absolute value to life?
    How does your consistent and absolute value of life when it comes to slavery and murder match up with your subjective value of life when it comes to suicide?

    Interestingly, that's exactly my point: They should have the choice --their choice, not YOUR choice.
    You're not advocating choice. You are advocating hopelessness. You can only support assisted suicide if you believe that people can get to the point where the only options are misery and death. You are limiting people and creating false dichotomies. I believe hope is always an option.If people choose to be miserable that's not my fault.

    Apparently I was. I also suspect you're smart enough to figure out what it was, without me having to waste more time explaining the obvious.
    No, seriously, I have no idea. I haven't seen that movie in a decade. But, you don't have to explain it if you don't think it's an important argument.

    So you believe that life is consistent and has absolute value (which means you should be able to quantify it, if it is consistent and absolute, by definition), but you either can't do so or refuse to do so.
    I can't and I don't have to. Consistent and absolute does not necessitate quantifiability. Which would be clear to you if you looked at your own values.

    Do you value goodness?
    Is goodness quantifiable?

    Hey, come on, this is your big chance! Spell it out for everyone. I purposefully set you up to explain what this "absolute value" is, so that everyone could follow you... and I was even hoping you had some kind of magical absolute answer... and now you're backing off. Disappointing.
    I know it's disappointing for you. You are losing this argument and you desperately want me to bring up God so that you can just dismiss me and all my arguments because you can't put forward a coherent framework of beliefs.


    srsly?
    Yes, srsly. We've largely been talking about framework (well I have) and not about specific policies.

    Are you referring to the idea of doctors killing patients and people killing their loved ones?
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  5. #75
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    (And yet the OP sounds INTP?)

    Ok, cool. Well I'm definitely N, and I'm definitely Fe.
    The OP? I actually didn't know the OP's type was being called into question. I don't know the OP but I'm not doubting his type. He seems like a 'certain kind of classic INFP' - to me.

  6. #76
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    The OP? I actually didn't know the OP's type was being called into question. I don't know the OP but I'm not doubting his type. He seems like a 'certain kind of classic INFP' - to me.
    his post style is some what similar to mine, get frustrated at people when they misunderstand him.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  7. #77
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    First of all, let me say this has been a very confusing conversation. I have been defending my overall framework without discussing real specific policy. You seem to want to attack my framework without offering an alternative.
    First of all, am I REQUIRED to offer an alternative to your position in the course of challenging it? That's an arbitrary rule on your part.

    Second of all, I've actually been advocating an alternative: Let adults decide make their own decisions based on their faith beliefs.

    For example, I strongly support an Evangelical friend who chose to have a Trisome-17 baby (which doctors claimed would have low quality of life and die shortly after birth), because whether or not I would have chosen to do the same, she chose to make that commitment to her child. I think my friend is beautiful. And it was her choice, not something imposed on her. I support her choice.

    In the same way, I believe that there are extenuating circumstances where someone might choose death over prolonged life for reasons that are not insane. Again, it's their choice on how they want to live and what they are willing to invest. Am I going to ascribe a moral judgment to that, or claim they are violating some "absolute consistent value of life"? Or am I advocating hopelessness? No.

    I might even see "choice" as more important than "life" as a value. We've all seen what type of mess "living at all costs" can create. It's certainly not an absolute value. How we choose to give or end our lives has meaning, for good or bad.

    That's my alternative, and I don't think it's rocket science.

    I think I've set forth my framework in as coherent a fashion as I'm capable of. Any questions I have left unanswered were really just arguments cloaked as questions and I think I've answered those arguments.
    Oh. Alas.

    Is there a consistent and absolute value to life? How does your consistent and absolute value of life when it comes to slavery and murder match up with your subjective value of life when it comes to suicide?
    See above. (Again.)

    You're not advocating choice. You are advocating hopelessness.
    Hmm. That conclusion seems to be the result of a lack of vision... and not on my part.

    You can only support assisted suicide if you believe that people can get to the point where the only options are misery and death. You are limiting people and creating false dichotomies. I believe hope is always an option. If people choose to be miserable that's not my fault.
    "If people choose to be miserable..."

    It would be interesting to hear your views on the poor and disadvantaged, but I suppose that's a different discussion.

    I suspect that perhaps if you had a longer and more diverse life experience to draw from, you would not be so quick to create these black and white boxes for other people that besmirch and dismiss their choices so readily.

    No, seriously, I have no idea. I haven't seen that movie in a decade. But, you don't have to explain it if you don't think it's an important argument.
    Considering I was only referring to the tagline of the movie, any explanation would be overkill and likely not get through anyway.

    I can't and I don't have to. Consistent and absolute does not necessitate quantifiability. Which would be clear to you if you looked at your own values.
    So you really think I'm not SEEING it?

    Fine, let me chew the food for you:

    1. Of COURSE some values are not quantifiable. Who would argue otherwise?

    2. The whole blatant point of my argument was that your APPEAL to absolute and consistent goodness is entirely irrelevant if you can't even explain what it is -- make it quantifiable in SOME way. Otherwise it's all warm fuzzies.

    I mean, you're making an appeal to absolute goodness in a world where
    - in Africa the middle-age population has been wiped out by AIDS and an entire generation orphaned
    - kids are raped and murdered and abused daily
    - poor people starve to death while the rich worry about their new tech toys and land rovers
    - many politicians are as crooked as hell
    - people bitch about or rally around a chicken sandwich in the name odf dignity, while treating each other like crap
    - kind decent people get cancer and die in great pain, for no apparent reason.

    I could go on and on, but you get the picture. So come on -- What is this "goodness"? And why is it relevant?

    So I gave you an opportunity to put your reasoning out there, to actually win some people over and show everyone listening that your values have some relevance, and instead you just complain, avoid, and try to say I'm the one being dishonest. (I already stated my intention in my last post, btw, but apparently you missed it.)

    "I can't and I don't have to." <-- That is the sound of making yourself entirely irrelevant to this discussion, and I had nothing to do with that.


    I know it's disappointing for you. You are losing this argument and you desperately want me to bring up God so that you can just dismiss me and all my arguments because you can't put forward a coherent framework of beliefs.


    Of course. Because everything is about dismissing you for your faith in GOD, rather than because you are insisting on some kind of absolute inherent moral framework that encompasses everyone in the world so that you can label them and then tell them what they can and can't do -- although you can't even specify what this value of "goodness" means or why it should apply to everyone when you are repeatedly asked to explain.

    Yes. Certainly, I'm losing.

    You know, I don't think that you've yet understood that faith and rationalism are at odds, in the sense faith starts with a belief/conclusion and then argues to support it, and logic comes at it from the opposite direction. You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too. If you're holding a subjective value (such as this "goodness" that you believe is in the world), then own up to it. The problem is that once it's subjective, you can't claim it's universal/absolute; but at least you're being honest, and inspiring people to share a vision rather than trying to coerce them with an "absolute" value.

    If you really want to understand me and how I think, consider this excerpt from the movie "Contact":

    Doctor Arroway, you come to us with no evidence, no record, no artifacts. Only a story that to put it mildly strains credibility. Over half a trillion dollars was spent, dozens of lives were lost. Are you really going to sit there and tell us we should just take this all... on faith?
    [pause, Ellie looks at Palmer]
    Michael Kitz: Please answer the question, doctor.
    Ellie Arroway: Is it possible that it didn't happen? Yes. As a scientist, I must concede that, I must volunteer that.
    Michael Kitz: Wait a minute, let me get this straight. You admit that you have absolutely no physical evidence to back up your story.
    Ellie Arroway: Yes.
    Michael Kitz: You admit that you very well may have hallucinated this whole thing.
    Ellie Arroway: Yes.
    Michael Kitz: You admit that if you were in our position, you would respond with exactly the same degree of incredulity and skepticism!
    Ellie Arroway: Yes!
    Michael Kitz: [standing, angrily] Then why don't you simply withdraw your testimony, and concede that this "journey to the center of the galaxy," in fact, never took place!
    Ellie Arroway: Because I can't. I... had an experience... I can't prove it, I can't even explain it, but everything that I know as a human being, everything that I am tells me that it was real! I was given something wonderful, something that changed me forever... A vision... of the universe, that tells us, undeniably, how tiny, and insignificant and how... rare, and precious we all are! A vision that tells us that we belong to something that is greater then ourselves, that we are *not*, that none of us are alone! I wish... I... could share that... I wish, that everyone, if only for one... moment, could feel... that awe, and humility, and hope. But... That continues to be my wish.
    Ellie's answer is one that, to me, is full of integrity. She is honest about what is rational vs not, what is a choice on her part and what is not. She's also honest about the basis for her choice to believe certain things about the world. It's a pretty amazing answer, honestly.

    It makes my heart sing.

    I hope that clarifies my position a bit better.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #78
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    If someone wants to commit suicide, okay. Leave them alone.


    I think the state should supply guillotines to doctor offices. I bet the guillotine has a low survival rate.


    I told this story in another thread, sorry if I'm being redundant, but my grandma had to discover her next door neighbor who shot himself in the head. Mr. King, old, apparently unhappy man with no where to go. Not fair to my grandma.

  9. #79
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    The OP? I actually didn't know the OP's type was being called into question. I don't know the OP but I'm not doubting his type. He seems like a 'certain kind of classic INFP' - to me.
    Yeah, it was a couple of pages back. I too think he is INFP. But then typology is mostly arbitrary anyway. So he can be what he wants.

  10. #80
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    If someone wants to commit suicide, okay. Leave them alone.


    I think the state should supply guillotines to doctor offices. I bet the guillotine has a low survival rate.


    I told this story in another thread, sorry if I'm being redundant, but my grandma had to discover her next door neighbor who shot himself in the head. Mr. King, old, apparently unhappy man with no where to go. Not fair to my grandma.
    Seems like the best way of dying would be to overdose on drugs. Not entirely foolproof, though seemingly easy to do accidentally. I don't know why people kill themselves in such unpleasant ways. If I was going to do it, I'd want to go out in a tripped out/numb bliss. Also I'm really interested in poison pills. I hope I would never have to use one, but it's a good idea to have one on hand. I'm a little paranoid.

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