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  1. #51
    Cat Wench ReadingRainbows's Avatar
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    Sometimes I think people think way too deeply into suicide.
    I really want to think its sad. I can only think it's solution to life.
    I can't be for it or against it.
    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    St. Stephen took rocks and St. Sebastian took arrows. You only have to take some jerks on an internet forum. Nut up.

  2. #52
    Warflower Nijntje's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unityemissions View Post
    I think it's entirely up to the individual. Some people tell me it's selfish because your loved ones will be in so much pain, but I find this a pathetic cop-out. In my mind, it's the exact reverse. I think it's selfish to not respect the right of an individual to check out if they don't think the price of admission is worth the ride. It's a basic, universal right in my mind.
    I can't talk for anyone else, and i believe a lot of grief surrounds suicide, but as a personal view, involving the feelings of family, my mum and i have discussed it, and she has told me that due to my illness, she would understand if i did. She would be upset, yes, but she wouldn't be one of those people saying "why oh why?! She had so much to live for!" She knows that it would be because i was either A: very unwell, or B: wanted an escape from it.

    The only slightly moral consideration i have is for the person finding me, and how it would impact them, rather than the thoughts of family and friends.

    As an aside, my mum and i also have a no-recussitation order in place, being a nurse she understands quality of life issues and whether or not after an accident i would have the same, if not, medical staff are not to save me.

    Terrible things happen to good people every day.
    Consequentially, I am not one of the good people.
    I am one of the terrible things.
    .



    Conclusion: Dinosaurs


  3. #53
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    If you are a terrible person whose actions result in more destruction than benefit to humanity and the planet, then one could argue that you should commit suicide. However, such a person would not do it, because they would want to continue being a bad person. Hence the need to execute people if they are an immediate danger to others. Also it is not proper to encourage anyone to commit suicide, so people would not argue it anyway.

    So we've eliminated any reason for why someone should commit suicide from a collective perspective.

    It does have negative consequences for other people, especially those who knew and loved the person; but also for anyone who finds their body. Those consequences should be considered before acting, just as the consequences of any action should be considered before acting. No one can know the future, but it is always possible that if that the person could turn their life around and be happy and healthy, they could do many more actions which would have positive consequences for other people, and that would be cut short if that person were to die.

    So there are reasons for why someone would argue against committing suicide, from a collective perspective.

    However, all the moral judgments and arguments from others can't ultimately cause a person to act or not; it's always their decision. And most would argue that it would be unethical to try to control another person's actions, as well as ultimately always ineffective. So since people always make their own decisions, even if the decision is to act in accord with another's judgment, it is best to encourage people to make wise decisions.

    So we have personal, subjective reasons to commit suicide. Only the individual can know their own subjective reality; other people can provide insight into objective reality.

    When a person's subjective reality is consistent with objective reality, we say that person knows truth; when it is inconsistent we say that person is under an illusion.

    Since people do not choose death as something enjoyable, because it is our instinct to survive, it follows that all personal reasons for suicide would be under the assumption that all other choices would result in something less enjoyable. This presumes the knowledge of chains of events and where they will lead (concluding that it is to somewhere unpleasant); this cannot be definitively known, since no one can know the future. However, it is possible to predict the immediate consequences of actions, and it is possible to determine which aspects of one's circumstances can be influenced and which ones can't. So to some extent it is possible to objectively determine whether it is reasonable to assume that death is preferable to all other actions. After we have determined which aspects of our circumstances are within our sphere of influence, we can come up with ideas about actions we could take to change our circumstances such that we would have an outcome which is preferable to death.

    The best solution for someone who is extremely unhappy includes both treatment of health conditions and healing of emotions, and also the changing of circumstances which are causing them to be unhappy.

    If a person concludes that all possible outcomes are worse than death, and that is consistent with objective reality, then they are making a wise and logical decision. This is true in very few instances, such as with terminally ill people, and people who are about to be tortured. Samaurai thought that to live with dishonor was worse than death.

    However, most of the time the conclusion is inconsistent with objective reality by objective standards, and they are making an illogical and unwise decision. By objective standards, that person is unable to perceive the existence of other outcomes which would be preferable. In some cases this is true, and the person is simply not thinking clearly because they are overwhelmed by emotion. In others, the person is so unhealthy that any outcome other than death would not be preferable by their own subjective standards because they are unable to enjoy anything. In the first case the goal is to treat the emotion which is overwhelming rational thought while appealing to rationality if the person is so inclined, and in the second the goal is to treat the illness which is causing them to constantly experience negative emotions.

    In either case the person is reaching an illogical conclusion, but is unable to effectively use rational thought to solve their problem. So in appealing to the people themselves, it is necessary to appeal to emotion.

    In conclusion: suicide is illogical, which is bad by some people's standards; but it is sad that the people are in conditions under which they are incapable of rational thought, or in which death is the most preferable course of action. (And it's sad that they are sad.)


    Another greenfairy wall of text.

  4. #54
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    So, NF's: do you think I should be one of you?

  5. #55
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    It depends on rationale for suicide.

    In the case of serious illness where the patient is in constant pain and there is lack of suitable treatment, I am all for it.

    In the majority of situations though, I'm opposed to suicide. In most cases, things that lead one to have suicidal thoughts can be reversed. Depression can usually be treated. Problems that seem catastrophic at the moment and seem like they are totally hopeless usually resolve somewhat with time. A person could be undergoing a devastating breakup and at the moment, it may seem like the end of the world with no reason to go on living. But with time, you eventually let go and move on with your life. Just because you feel things can't possibly get better now doesn't always mean you'll feel that way. People tend not to be very good at predicting how they will feel in the future.
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  6. #56
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    It depends on rationale for suicide.

    In the case of serious illness where the patient is in constant pain and there is lack of suitable treatment, I am all for it.

    In the majority of situations though, I'm opposed to suicide. In most cases, things that lead one to have suicidal thoughts can be reversed. Depression can usually be treated. Problems that seem catastrophic at the moment and seem like they are totally hopeless usually resolve somewhat with time. A person could be undergoing a devastating breakup and at the moment, it may seem like the end of the world with no reason to go on living. But with time, you eventually let go and move on with your life. Just because you feel things can't possibly get better now doesn't always mean you'll feel that way. People tend not to be very good at predicting how they will feel in the future.
    I have a similar take. A huge difficulty is knowing which persons are feeling temporarily suicidal and how you can access the path to recovery. If you don't know, how can you make a desicison.

    It feels like my qualm with death penalty...oh!, which i suppose it is...in a way.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  7. #57
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    It depends on rationale for suicide.

    In the case of serious illness where the patient is in constant pain and there is lack of suitable treatment, I am all for it.

    In the majority of situations though, I'm opposed to suicide. In most cases, things that lead one to have suicidal thoughts can be reversed. Depression can usually be treated. Problems that seem catastrophic at the moment and seem like they are totally hopeless usually resolve somewhat with time. A person could be undergoing a devastating breakup and at the moment, it may seem like the end of the world with no reason to go on living. But with time, you eventually let go and move on with your life. Just because you feel things can't possibly get better now doesn't always mean you'll feel that way. People tend not to be very good at predicting how they will feel in the future.
    So the value of life is dependent on pain?
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  8. #58
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    So the value of life is dependent on pain?
    Well, it doesn't necessarily have to go there; it's more a matter of, "Shouldn't everyone have the right to determine for themselves how much pain they're willing and able to suffer in pursuit of some other goal?" Maybe you think they should endure more suffering for the sake of some better ideal, but is that your decision to make for them?

    So it's not really about "life value" at all in that sense. One can value life and still make such a decision for themselves. In fact, maybe they are making that decision because they value life rather than living death.

    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Im not the best at helping someone who has thought about suicidal thoughts. Someone once said that in the past they had thought about running there car under an 18 wheeler and my response was "holy crap, that would suck if you didnt die from it"
    That's actually a big deterrent to suicide for me. Worse than killing myself would be not dying from it and being in far worse pain. Remember the kid who blew off his lower face with a shotgun after a drug binge? (They tried to blame heavy metal.) It took him a few years to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by unityemissions View Post
    You're totally missing the point. This is a matter of morals, an intellectual discussion. Does that not have merit in and of itself? Damned I'm starting to get the impression that I'm not a feeler after all this. The only decent responses I see are from the thinkers.
    I'm rather confused as to why you're getting down on Qlip, I don't see any more judgment there than I see in many others in this thread. Maybe you got triggered or something...?

    I mean, suicide IS unhealthy in the sense that it "kills" you... It stops your body and ends your life prematurely, just as various stages of unhealth do. And typically people who are experiencing mental and physical and emotional health do not want to end their lives; it's people who are already in some kind of pain, where death seems preferable to life. So it's indicative of an "unhealthy" state and something needs to be changed in some way; the question is whether the act itself is unhealthy or a viable cure for something and in what context. That's a question of values and morals. And if this is a thread about people's morals, according to you, then Qlip has a right to discuss morals. So...?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #59
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, it doesn't necessarily have to go there; it's more a matter of, "Shouldn't everyone have the right to determine for themselves how much pain they're willing and able to suffer in pursuit of some other goal?" Maybe you think they should endure more suffering for the sake of some better ideal, but is that your decision to make for them?

    So it's not really about "life value" at all in that sense. One can value life and still make such a decision for themselves. In fact, maybe they are making that decision because they value life rather than living death.
    But, suchirony wasn't arguing from a "rights" basis. She specifically pointed out that she's opposed to the majority of suicides.

    Also, "living death" is just a matter of perception and has nothing to do with values and rights.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  10. #60
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Also, "living death" is just a matter of perception and has nothing to do with values and rights.
    "Nothing to do" with values? It's not a perception, it's an assessment of a perception and as such is based on values. What one person sees as a "living death," people like Joni Erickson Tada (for example) saw as an opportunity for life. It's entirely based on values. Another great example: Terri Schiavo in Florida, where clinically she was a mindless vegetable by the analyses of various doctors but to others she was still alive and had a valuable life in their eyes... ALL based on one's values and what data was weighted more than other data.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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