[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Suicide okey dokey ??

[Within]

I'm sure you do stupid things regardless of what perspective you have. It's in human nature.

You failed to understand me.

I don't have an opinion on the issue.

Could have fooled me.

 

[kyuuei]

You failed to understand me.


Could have fooled me.

I suppose I did. It's hard to form an opinion of something you do not understand. I dislike it, I know instinctively it goes against every bone in my body. But those strong instincts don't really allow me to logically consider the issue at all. So I simply don't formulate opinions of suicidal people good or bad.

 

[Poki]

Suicide is stupid unless you are in so much physical pain you cant handle it and you are going insane..being insane would cause you to commit suicide. And that point its insanity, not stupidity.

Other then that its stupid and a cop-out. Might as well die trying then just die. I wont get into the selfish argument as thats a retarded arrgument. Of course its selfish on both parts...thats called wants and someone doing something you dont want. Its more a matter of strength then good or bad. And not even if a person is strong or weak. But if a person is strong enough as its based on situation and while they maybe to weak for the situation they may be an extremely strong person so to say they are weak is not right either.

In my "general" opinion suicide is bad...because it means that a person was not strong eenough to live. I dont see how that is good...to have a person be in a situation they cant handle and commit suicide. I know people can argue they are done suffering...but they are just done period. Cant even experience any good at that point either.

 

[Poki]

now that I think about it....

Fi says suicide is sad. Ti says suicide is bad. I dont really judge the person as good or bad, I would hold that judgement more toward someone who kills other people.

and Ti thinks about it and feelers feel it. Has nothing to do with judgement of the person. We are talking about suicide in my eyes, and judgement of person I dont even think about.

 

[SD45T-2]

*cannot comprehend what time has to do with wisdom or counters*

This sounds like a conversation from a Marx Brothers movie with shortnsweet and Groucho and you as Chico.

 

[Anew Leaf]

yet you responded.



unless you're trying to say I wasn't being open minded. If so, go fuck yourself, troll.

I have a feeling we would be great chums eye arr ell.

 

[Poki]

I think it's sad that someone would be in a position where that looked like a good choice, but it's not a foreign sentiment to me.

I think terminally ill people should have the legal right to end their own lives if they want to.

I'd feel betrayed if someone I cared about made that decision without first offering me the opportunity to help them or get them help and I wouldn't be above contacting the authorities to have them put in 72 hour observation if they didn't have what I considered a crazy good reason for wanting to off themselves. Because I'm selfish.

I'd be afraid to try it myself, because I might mess up and end up spending the rest of my life on life support or something.

Im not the best at helping someone who has thought about suicidal thoughts. Someone once said that in the past they had thought about running there car under an 18 wheeler and my response was "holy crap, that would suck if you didnt die from it"

edit: and I meant that in the sense of the hospital and the pain and everything that is involved in living through a crash like that which is where the conversation lead. Not that I wish they would have died.

 

[greenfairy]

[MENTION=15607]The Great One[/MENTION]I also think the first situation may be reason enough for some who are so unstable/insane that they truly won't get through the breakup. Say an uber dork that never gets laid, until he does, but she leaves him and he's left with this lingering notion that he'll never get laid and be loved again. It's too much to bare, so he does the deed.

Which is being too lazy to change himself for the better and become more attractive so he gets laid more often. I'm inclined to agree with [MENTION=15371]RaptorWizard[/MENTION] on this one. Seriously. You'd rather die than learn some social skills?

 

[cafe]

Im not the best at helping someone who has thought about suicidal thoughts. Someone once said that in the past they had thought about running there car under an 18 wheeler and my response was "holy crap, that would suck if you didnt die from it"

edit: and I meant that in the sense of the hospital and the pain and everything that is involved in living through a crash like that which is where the conversation lead. Not that I wish they would have died.

Yeah, the thought of being stuck living in a ruined body is enough to terrify me out of the idea. I hate pain. I hate being bored. I hate having to wait around on other people to do stuff for me. Awful.

Plus, my husband is a truck driver and I can't imagine what it would do to him if someone decided to use him as a suicide weapon. That's a part of suicide that I do think of as selfish -- somebody is probably going to have to clean your carcass up one way or another. I know it happens to us all in the end, regardless, but choosing for someone to have to find you with your brains spattered all over the wall or pry your corpse out from under a truck is kind of a dick move, IMO.

A guy we knew from college became a police chaplain and we heard several years ago that he had died trying to save a guy that jumped off a bridge into a river. The suicide lived, but the guy we knew drowned. We didn't know him well, but he always seemed very kind and nice and he had a wife and four kids, I think. It's just sad all the way around. I hope some kind of good came from that because just thinking about it really bums me out.

 

[Santosha]

Qlip and Kyuuei come the closest to expressing my thoughts/feeling and perspective on it. I'm not sure what you mean by it being "okay" or "not okay"... selfish or selfless, would depend on many factors and varying circumstances, obviously. Probably best to not hold an absolute on it, which is what it seems like your wanting people to do and why they are struggling to reply to your satisfaction. From my perspective, I find so much meaning and value in life, and I see it as every-changing to the point that suicide seems like a very final decision to (often times) temporary problems. I see the state of ones being very much in their own control.. for no matter what external restrictions are placed one can always shift their own vantage point and decide how they will let it translate internally. I think suicide is often the result of one not understanding (be it intellectually, emotionally, spiritually) their own power, and I find it not only sad, but inaccurate. Attachment and detachment can both be considered selfish depending the spin.

 

[ReadingRainbows]

Sometimes I think people think way too deeply into suicide.
I really want to think its sad. I can only think it's solution to life.
I can't be for it or against it.

 

[Nijntje]

I think it's entirely up to the individual. Some people tell me it's selfish because your loved ones will be in so much pain, but I find this a pathetic cop-out. In my mind, it's the exact reverse. I think it's selfish to not respect the right of an individual to check out if they don't think the price of admission is worth the ride. It's a basic, universal right in my mind.

I can't talk for anyone else, and i believe a lot of grief surrounds suicide, but as a personal view, involving the feelings of family, my mum and i have discussed it, and she has told me that due to my illness, she would understand if i did. She would be upset, yes, but she wouldn't be one of those people saying "why oh why?! She had so much to live for!" She knows that it would be because i was either A: very unwell, or B: wanted an escape from it.

The only slightly moral consideration i have is for the person finding me, and how it would impact them, rather than the thoughts of family and friends.

As an aside, my mum and i also have a no-recussitation order in place, being a nurse she understands quality of life issues and whether or not after an accident i would have the same, if not, medical staff are not to save me.

 

[greenfairy]

If you are a terrible person whose actions result in more destruction than benefit to humanity and the planet, then one could argue that you should commit suicide. However, such a person would not do it, because they would want to continue being a bad person. Hence the need to execute people if they are an immediate danger to others. Also it is not proper to encourage anyone to commit suicide, so people would not argue it anyway.

So we've eliminated any reason for why someone should commit suicide from a collective perspective.

It does have negative consequences for other people, especially those who knew and loved the person; but also for anyone who finds their body. Those consequences should be considered before acting, just as the consequences of any action should be considered before acting. No one can know the future, but it is always possible that if that the person could turn their life around and be happy and healthy, they could do many more actions which would have positive consequences for other people, and that would be cut short if that person were to die.

So there are reasons for why someone would argue against committing suicide, from a collective perspective.

However, all the moral judgments and arguments from others can't ultimately cause a person to act or not; it's always their decision. And most would argue that it would be unethical to try to control another person's actions, as well as ultimately always ineffective. So since people always make their own decisions, even if the decision is to act in accord with another's judgment, it is best to encourage people to make wise decisions.

So we have personal, subjective reasons to commit suicide. Only the individual can know their own subjective reality; other people can provide insight into objective reality.

When a person's subjective reality is consistent with objective reality, we say that person knows truth; when it is inconsistent we say that person is under an illusion.

Since people do not choose death as something enjoyable, because it is our instinct to survive, it follows that all personal reasons for suicide would be under the assumption that all other choices would result in something less enjoyable. This presumes the knowledge of chains of events and where they will lead (concluding that it is to somewhere unpleasant); this cannot be definitively known, since no one can know the future. However, it is possible to predict the immediate consequences of actions, and it is possible to determine which aspects of one's circumstances can be influenced and which ones can't. So to some extent it is possible to objectively determine whether it is reasonable to assume that death is preferable to all other actions. After we have determined which aspects of our circumstances are within our sphere of influence, we can come up with ideas about actions we could take to change our circumstances such that we would have an outcome which is preferable to death.

The best solution for someone who is extremely unhappy includes both treatment of health conditions and healing of emotions, and also the changing of circumstances which are causing them to be unhappy.

If a person concludes that all possible outcomes are worse than death, and that is consistent with objective reality, then they are making a wise and logical decision. This is true in very few instances, such as with terminally ill people, and people who are about to be tortured. Samaurai thought that to live with dishonor was worse than death.

However, most of the time the conclusion is inconsistent with objective reality by objective standards, and they are making an illogical and unwise decision. By objective standards, that person is unable to perceive the existence of other outcomes which would be preferable. In some cases this is true, and the person is simply not thinking clearly because they are overwhelmed by emotion. In others, the person is so unhealthy that any outcome other than death would not be preferable by their own subjective standards because they are unable to enjoy anything. In the first case the goal is to treat the emotion which is overwhelming rational thought while appealing to rationality if the person is so inclined, and in the second the goal is to treat the illness which is causing them to constantly experience negative emotions.

In either case the person is reaching an illogical conclusion, but is unable to effectively use rational thought to solve their problem. So in appealing to the people themselves, it is necessary to appeal to emotion.

In conclusion: suicide is illogical, which is bad by some people's standards; but it is sad that the people are in conditions under which they are incapable of rational thought, or in which death is the most preferable course of action. (And it's sad that they are sad.)


Another greenfairy wall of text.

 

[greenfairy]

So, NF's: do you think I should be one of you?

 

[Such Irony]

It depends on rationale for suicide.

In the case of serious illness where the patient is in constant pain and there is lack of suitable treatment, I am all for it.

In the majority of situations though, I'm opposed to suicide. In most cases, things that lead one to have suicidal thoughts can be reversed. Depression can usually be treated. Problems that seem catastrophic at the moment and seem like they are totally hopeless usually resolve somewhat with time. A person could be undergoing a devastating breakup and at the moment, it may seem like the end of the world with no reason to go on living. But with time, you eventually let go and move on with your life. Just because you feel things can't possibly get better now doesn't always mean you'll feel that way. People tend not to be very good at predicting how they will feel in the future.

 

[Betty Blue]

It depends on rationale for suicide.

In the case of serious illness where the patient is in constant pain and there is lack of suitable treatment, I am all for it.

In the majority of situations though, I'm opposed to suicide. In most cases, things that lead one to have suicidal thoughts can be reversed. Depression can usually be treated. Problems that seem catastrophic at the moment and seem like they are totally hopeless usually resolve somewhat with time. A person could be undergoing a devastating breakup and at the moment, it may seem like the end of the world with no reason to go on living. But with time, you eventually let go and move on with your life. Just because you feel things can't possibly get better now doesn't always mean you'll feel that way. People tend not to be very good at predicting how they will feel in the future.

I have a similar take. A huge difficulty is knowing which persons are feeling temporarily suicidal and how you can access the path to recovery. If you don't know, how can you make a desicison.

It feels like my qualm with death penalty...oh!, which i suppose it is...in a way.

 

[Beorn]

It depends on rationale for suicide.

In the case of serious illness where the patient is in constant pain and there is lack of suitable treatment, I am all for it.

In the majority of situations though, I'm opposed to suicide. In most cases, things that lead one to have suicidal thoughts can be reversed. Depression can usually be treated. Problems that seem catastrophic at the moment and seem like they are totally hopeless usually resolve somewhat with time. A person could be undergoing a devastating breakup and at the moment, it may seem like the end of the world with no reason to go on living. But with time, you eventually let go and move on with your life. Just because you feel things can't possibly get better now doesn't always mean you'll feel that way. People tend not to be very good at predicting how they will feel in the future.

So the value of life is dependent on pain?

 

[Totenkindly]

So the value of life is dependent on pain?

Well, it doesn't necessarily have to go there; it's more a matter of, "Shouldn't everyone have the right to determine for themselves how much pain they're willing and able to suffer in pursuit of some other goal?" Maybe you think they should endure more suffering for the sake of some better ideal, but is that your decision to make for them?

So it's not really about "life value" at all in that sense. One can value life and still make such a decision for themselves. In fact, maybe they are making that decision because they value life rather than living death.

Im not the best at helping someone who has thought about suicidal thoughts. Someone once said that in the past they had thought about running there car under an 18 wheeler and my response was "holy crap, that would suck if you didnt die from it"

That's actually a big deterrent to suicide for me. Worse than killing myself would be not dying from it and being in far worse pain. Remember the kid who blew off his lower face with a shotgun after a drug binge? (They tried to blame heavy metal.) It took him a few years to die.

You're totally missing the point. This is a matter of morals, an intellectual discussion. Does that not have merit in and of itself? Damned I'm starting to get the impression that I'm not a feeler after all this. The only decent responses I see are from the thinkers.

I'm rather confused as to why you're getting down on Qlip, I don't see any more judgment there than I see in many others in this thread. Maybe you got triggered or something...?

I mean, suicide IS unhealthy in the sense that it "kills" you... It stops your body and ends your life prematurely, just as various stages of unhealth do. And typically people who are experiencing mental and physical and emotional health do not want to end their lives; it's people who are already in some kind of pain, where death seems preferable to life. So it's indicative of an "unhealthy" state and something needs to be changed in some way; the question is whether the act itself is unhealthy or a viable cure for something and in what context. That's a question of values and morals. And if this is a thread about people's morals, according to you, then Qlip has a right to discuss morals. So...?

 

[Beorn]

Well, it doesn't necessarily have to go there; it's more a matter of, "Shouldn't everyone have the right to determine for themselves how much pain they're willing and able to suffer in pursuit of some other goal?" Maybe you think they should endure more suffering for the sake of some better ideal, but is that your decision to make for them?

So it's not really about "life value" at all in that sense. One can value life and still make such a decision for themselves. In fact, maybe they are making that decision because they value life rather than living death.

But, suchirony wasn't arguing from a "rights" basis. She specifically pointed out that she's opposed to the majority of suicides.

Also, "living death" is just a matter of perception and has nothing to do with values and rights.

 

[Totenkindly]

Also, "living death" is just a matter of perception and has nothing to do with values and rights.

"Nothing to do" with values? It's not a perception, it's an assessment of a perception and as such is based on values. What one person sees as a "living death," people like Joni Erickson Tada (for example) saw as an opportunity for life. It's entirely based on values. Another great example: Terri Schiavo in Florida, where clinically she was a mindless vegetable by the analyses of various doctors but to others she was still alive and had a valuable life in their eyes... ALL based on one's values and what data was weighted more than other data.