[INFP] You don't do anything for me!

[21%]

Hi everyone. I'm sort of going through a weird transition at the moment that involves a total shift in perspective. I'm questioning myself a little bit and I'm not sure if I'm biased or if I'm forgetting something important. Honest opinions will be very helpful.

Recently my INFP said that that I never do anything for him, during a disagreement. He had been pestering me to get piercings, and I told him that I really did not want to get them. I don't even have my ears pierced! He then started lashing out and said I never did things for him, and proceeded to listing out the things he wanted but I never did for him.

The things include:
- Me not wanting to move Long story short: I told him even before we got into a relationship that I was not willing to relocate and he should really think about it whether he wanted a relationship that was bound to become long-distance soon -- he jumped into it without thinking, saying he would move to be with me. To be honest, if he finds a job somewhere else in the world I will seriously consider doing some freelance work so I will be able to be with him at least for a certain amount of time in a year. I'm not willing to totally move away, but I will definitely try to 'make things work'.
- During his visit, I never take days off work to be with him I have a full time job, and on most days I did leave work a couple of hours early to avoid traffic. I took a few full days off, but a lot of half-days. I only have one full day off each week, and that day is always his, from the moment we wake up until bedtime.
- Beach trip that never happened This is partly my fault, as I mentioned I was working on one as his birthday gift. During the last few weeks of his visit, however, lots of things happened. His landlord decided to get a new tenant and he had to look for a new place, loan problems, etc., and we were both stressed trying to handle all the things that needed to be done.
- He is always the one visiting It's true. But I have a job, and being a PhD student he has months-long summer holidays, so it is more sensible for him to come visit. He pays for the flights, and I pay for his rent when he is here, which come out to about the same amount of money, which equals my 3-4 months' savings.
- I won't get my body pierced for him It's true. I don't want piercings. I really don't want them. I don't think this is really relevant, though. It was just a breaking point for deeper issues.

But I'm always there for him emotionally, especially in the last three years where he is battling depression and stress. I always listen, and I always try to help him plan. He discusses his work with me and I really listen and think about it and give feedback. In the last three weeks or so we talked about literally nothing but his work. I think I'm being supportive and understanding.

I know he usually lashes out and says hurtful things when he is under stress. He can get into a very dark mood where he proclaims that he hates everything and the world hates him. When he is stressed he is emotionally closed off and I can forget trying to talk to him about anything. Even when I have problems, he isn't even willing to listen. Then afterwards sometimes he will feel sorry. He wil apologize. He does try. It's just that when he is stressed out he is so overwhelmed by negative emotions and thoughts there is no room for anything and anyone.

I used to be really, really hurt by all this. Usually if he said something to suggest that I was 'selfish', I would feel extremely hurt. This time, initially it did have that effect, and I just couldn't sleep for several days. Last night we had a chance to talk about it, and I finally had a chance to tell him how I felt and why. He listened, but said nothing, and steered the conversation into something a little lighter. I could tell he was still very depressed.

Then tonight I had a thought. I realized something that should be very obvious: I don't need to feel hurt. I know I love him and that's all I need to know. Because of this I should let go of all expectations. My love is mine to give and I will give it freely. I don't expect anything in return. I don't expect him to appreciate it. I don't expect him to treat me nicely. I can choose not to be hurt.

And suddenly, all the pain was gone. I actually felt happy, and light, and free. We talked again for a little bit and today he avoided the 'conflict' topics. He still said I don't do things for him, and when I asked if he could tell me why he felt that way, he said he didn't know. Then he didn't want to talk anymore. Usually I would be hurt by this, but not now. I even went as far as thinking how I would feel if he did not want the relationship anymore and I imagined us going our separate ways. It made me feel a little wistful, but there was no real pain.

I think I know why he said such a thing but I'll start with a little (true) story first. There was one time he was in my room. We were doing a mini spring-cleaning, and he saw a postcard sent to me long time ago by one of my guy friends who used to like me. He got extremely jealous and he half-jokingly but quite seriously said he was going to throw it away. I just shrugged and said "Ok.", grabbed it from his hand and was about to toss it into the trash when he said "No. Don't do it!" I asked why and he said "If it doesn't really mean anything to you, then it doesn't matter if you keep it."

I think the same goes for this whole "I do nothing for him" issue. He secretly wants me to 'love him enough that I am willing to give up everything -- my life, my family, my job -- to be with him'. In reality, he is never going to make me do it, but he will feel satisfied that he is that important to me. The fact that I keep "not doing things" for him, although they are decisions that make sense logically, makes him feel unloved. I totally understand this. I can really sympathize with the need for intense connection. I think he is an sx-dom, and this is the sx's desire for the ultimate union.

So, my questions are:

Am I 'growing' in my love or did I just 'unconsciously extract myself from caring too much because it's too hard'? I'm sure I want to be with him, but I feel like it's not entirely up to me and I can't make things happen. I'm doing my best to work towards a future (although it feels a bit one-sided), but if it doesn't work out then there is nothing I can do about it. I am trying my best and if he has a better idea about how things can be, I'm all ears. In a way, I feel like I'm freeing myself from responsibility, and it feels great. The fact that it feels great is making me question myself if I really feel that way or is it something I made up to fool myself to mask over the hurt.

Also, how can I help him? How can I make him feel loved? Can you relate to this kind of feeling at all? Does my speculation make sense?

I am a bit confused by my new-found freedom. So, any thoughts at all? Thanks!

 

[Qlip]

Your freedom doesn't sound like a solution to me.. maybe just a step to a solution, some space for yourself to think objectively.

It sounds like your partner has some personal issues causing him to lash out like that. He might feel powerless in the relationship, or just in his own life, for reasons that I could not guess at. And it sounds like he is expecting a lot from you, more than can be expected from even a SO. It sounds to me like he's attaching those problems to you.

Actually, I feel like I can relate to him not all that long ago in my life. :/

 

[Usehername]

You two aren't on equal positions of power, because he's got some significant self-work to do (doable self work, but like you say, it's not entirely up to you):

The outcome is going to be one of these:
1.) He does the work, power is rebalanced to a healthy level, you have a worthwhile relationship
2.) He doesn't do the work, power is always unbalanced, you have an unhealthy relationship, and you have to decide if you want to spend your life's energy trying to balance the scales with someone who isn't doing the work to be a healthy adult. (This decision is something I can definitely sympathize with - I would've answered yes to this for a long time, though with some distance I can see that I'm a more vibrant person not wasting my energy and angsting about something that's located outside of my control. Your boyfriend feels like it's outside his control, like [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION] points out - don't let him convince you otherwise, because if you affirm his false narrative, he stops looking for the source, which is really himself, and it removes his opportunity to have a great life. Don't baby him.)
3.) He doesn't do the work, power is always unbalanced, and you give yourself the opportunity to walk away - which doesn't mean you don't love or respect him, but that your life's purpose is not throwing away your energy and attention to things that are ultimately rooted in his decision to not grow.

#ThingIHadToLearnTheHardWay: PhD dudes can dialogue about their emotions really well, but if they're not experiencing and feeling and sorting through their emotions, they're not actually doing any work--they're spinning their wheels indefinitely. They're outside the glass room looking in, not sensing things experientially.

 

[Evo]

to answer your questions: you are growing, now you need to figure out if he is going to grow.
Part of him growing is that he needs to realize that no one can make him feel loved but himself.
Just like you have learned that no one can make you feel hurt except you. You decide how people affect you, no one else. This can be very hard to do, so props to you
I'm not sure how you can help him, almost sounds like you can guide him to the water but can't make him drink kinda situation. You can't change him, I guess maybe you can just identify the problem with him, and then decide if you both will go in the same direction afterwards.
IMO it sounds like he wants you to be the one to make him happy. But we should not depend on others to make us happy. He has to say "I love myself, and I love my life" and accept things the way they are. Or make them better himself. He should be so happy to have such at person that's always there for him.
I can relate to both sides, I have had very high expectations of partners in the past and I also have had others place high expectations on me...And recently I have needed to decide if i'm going to be the only one growing in the relationship. It can be very draining.

 

[1487610420]

Hi everyone. I'm sort of going through a weird transition at the moment that involves a total shift in perspective. I'm questioning myself a little bit and I'm not sure if I'm biased or if I'm forgetting something important. Honest opinions will be very helpful.

Recently my INFP said that that I never do anything for him, during a disagreement. He had been pestering me to get piercings, and I told him that I really did not want to get them. I don't even have my ears pierced! He then started lashing out and said I never did things for him, and proceeded to listing out the things he wanted but I never did for him.

The things include:
- Me not wanting to move Long story short: I told him even before we got into a relationship that I was not willing to relocate and he should really think about it whether he wanted a relationship that was bound to become long-distance soon -- he jumped into it without thinking, saying he would move to be with me. To be honest, if he finds a job somewhere else in the world I will seriously consider doing some freelance work so I will be able to be with him at least for a certain amount of time in a year. I'm not willing to totally move away, but I will definitely try to 'make things work'.
- During his visit, I never take days off work to be with him I have a full time job, and on most days I did leave work a couple of hours early to avoid traffic. I took a few full days off, but a lot of half-days. I only have one full day off each week, and that day is always his, from the moment we wake up until bedtime.
- Beach trip that never happened This is partly my fault, as I mentioned I was working on one as his birthday gift. During the last few weeks of his visit, however, lots of things happened. His landlord decided to get a new tenant and he had to look for a new place, loan problems, etc., and we were both stressed trying to handle all the things that needed to be done.
- He is always the one visiting It's true. But I have a job, and being a PhD student he has months-long summer holidays, so it is more sensible for him to come visit. He pays for the flights, and I pay for his rent when he is here, which come out to about the same amount of money, which equals my 3-4 months' savings.

Dialog and expectation/balance management. Thought this is conditioned by underlying issues.

- I won't get my body pierced for him It's true. I don't want piercings. I really don't want them. I don't think this is really relevant, though. It was just a breaking point for deeper issues.

Srsly, if the mere expectation imprint wasn't enough, actually demanding physical integrity violation is just on the top of fucked up. Still, just a byproduct of the whole mindset, it could likely be that the more permanent the action is, the more it feels in his mind as a sign of commitment. Still, theories apart, just fucked up.

But I'm always there for him emotionally, especially in the last three years where he is battling depression and stress. I always listen, and I always try to help him plan. He discusses his work with me and I really listen and think about it and give feedback. In the last three weeks or so we talked about literally nothing but his work. I think I'm being supportive and understanding.

I know he usually lashes out and says hurtful things when he is under stress. He can get into a very dark mood where he proclaims that he hates everything and the world hates him. When he is stressed he is emotionally closed off and I can forget trying to talk to him about anything. Even when I have problems, he isn't even willing to listen. Then afterwards sometimes he will feel sorry. He wil apologize. He does try. It's just that when he is stressed out he is so overwhelmed by negative emotions and thoughts there is no room for anything and anyone.

I used to be really, really hurt by all this. Usually if he said something to suggest that I was 'selfish', I would feel extremely hurt. This time, initially it did have that effect, and I just couldn't sleep for several days. Last night we had a chance to talk about it, and I finally had a chance to tell him how I felt and why. He listened, but said nothing, and steered the conversation into something a little lighter. I could tell he was still very depressed.

Then tonight I had a thought. I realized something that should be very obvious: I don't need to feel hurt. I know I love him and that's all I need to know. Because of this I should let go of all expectations. My love is mine to give and I will give it freely. I don't expect anything in return. I don't expect him to appreciate it. I don't expect him to treat me nicely. I can choose not to be hurt.

And suddenly, all the pain was gone. I actually felt happy, and light, and free. We talked again for a little bit and today he avoided the 'conflict' topics. He still said I don't do things for him, and when I asked if he could tell me why he felt that way, he said he didn't know. Then he didn't want to talk anymore. Usually I would be hurt by this, but not now. I even went as far as thinking how I would feel if he did not want the relationship anymore and I imagined us going our separate ways. It made me feel a little wistful, but there was no real pain.

I think I know why he said such a thing but I'll start with a little (true) story first. There was one time he was in my room. We were doing a mini spring-cleaning, and he saw a postcard sent to me long time ago by one of my guy friends who used to like me. He got extremely jealous and he half-jokingly but quite seriously said he was going to throw it away. I just shrugged and said "Ok.", grabbed it from his hand and was about to toss it into the trash when he said "No. Don't do it!" I asked why and he said "If it doesn't really mean anything to you, then it doesn't matter if you keep it."

I think the same goes for this whole "I do nothing for him" issue. He secretly wants me to 'love him enough that I am willing to give up everything -- my life, my family, my job -- to be with him'. In reality, he is never going to make me do it, but he will feel satisfied that he is that important to me. The fact that I keep "not doing things" for him, although they are decisions that make sense logically, makes him feel unloved. I totally understand this. I can really sympathize with the need for intense connection. I think he is an sx-dom, and this is the sx's desire for the ultimate union.

So, my questions are:

Am I 'growing' in my love or did I just 'unconsciously extract myself from caring too much because it's too hard'? I'm sure I want to be with him, but I feel like it's not entirely up to me and I can't make things happen. I'm doing my best to work towards a future (although it feels a bit one-sided), but if it doesn't work out then there is nothing I can do about it. I am trying my best and if he has a better idea about how things can be, I'm all ears. In a way, I feel like I'm freeing myself from responsibility, and it feels great. The fact that it feels great is making me question myself if I really feel that way or is it something I made up to fool myself to mask over the hurt.

Also, how can I help him? How can I make him feel loved? Can you relate to this kind of feeling at all? Does my speculation make sense?

I am a bit confused by my new-found freedom. So, any thoughts at all? Thanks!

As for the rest, this is a good read: relevant to your case and I think you've done most of the reasoning already.

#ThingIHadToLearnTheHardWay: PhD dudes can dialogue about their emotions really well, but if they're not experiencing and feeling and sorting through their emotions, they're not actually doing any work--they're spinning their wheels indefinitely. They're outside the glass room looking in, not sensing things experientially.

Is this a new type?

 

[Randomnity]

Pressuring you to get anything pierced is horrendous behaviour. Not acceptable. Body autonomy is a basic human right.

 

[cascadeco]

I think while in the midst of a relationship, and caring and loving the other person, it can be easy to fall into rationalizing things, and trying to make things work no matter what the cost. It sounds like you've been doing an awful lot of accommodating and trying to see and understand his pov, and I'm not sensing as much of him being able to do the same for you.

I think it's good that you've gotten to this 'place' where it seems you're at least a little less attached to an imperative-must-have-outcome - i.e. making things work whatever the cost. Because, in the end, maybe this relationship isn't what is best for both of you in the long run.

OR maybe it is.

But I think it's good that you're starting to realize that you can only do so much and you're ultimately not responsible for him or his side of the relationship. And, you also can't make him happy - I mean, if he's unhappy within himself, to his core, nothing you do or say is going to be able to 'fix' that or cover it up or whatever. He needs to take care of himself and build his own core to be able to then be happy and fully extend to others and be in a mutually giving relationship. You can give and give, and flex, and try to be empathetic to him, which of course is loving and great, but it should always be a two-way street, where he is able to fully give of himself as well, and fully accept who YOU are. And, if he's not in the end able to deal with who you are as well as what your boundaries are in terms of yourself/identity, then that's just something that will unfold and maybe the relationship will have to end.

I wish all the best for you guys and hope you can continue having some honest discussions, either to grow together and work through this or to realize that it can't be sustained in the longterm for whatever reason.

 

[skylights]

Am I 'growing' in my love or did I just 'unconsciously extract myself from caring too much because it's too hard'? I'm sure I want to be with him, but I feel like it's not entirely up to me and I can't make things happen. I'm doing my best to work towards a future (although it feels a bit one-sided), but if it doesn't work out then there is nothing I can do about it. I am trying my best and if he has a better idea about how things can be, I'm all ears. In a way, I feel like I'm freeing myself from responsibility, and it feels great. The fact that it feels great is making me question myself if I really feel that way or is it something I made up to fool myself to mask over the hurt.

Sounds like you're on the edge and you have to choose. I think it's easy for us NFs to ignore the emotional ramifications of a break-up until we're actually there... because we can really idealize the freedom in our heads, but then everything is fantastic in theory. Though by the same token, we can also totally catastrophize, and maybe it wouldn't be a big deal at all. My experience is that when I feel emotionally numb, the emotions I should probably be feeling will catch up to me sooner or later.

Also, how can I help him? How can I make him feel loved? Can you relate to this kind of feeling at all? Does my speculation make sense?

I think the same goes for this whole "I do nothing for him" issue. He secretly wants me to 'love him enough that I am willing to give up everything -- my life, my family, my job -- to be with him'. In reality, he is never going to make me do it, but he will feel satisfied that he is that important to me. The fact that I keep "not doing things" for him, although they are decisions that make sense logically, makes him feel unloved. I totally understand this. I can really sympathize with the need for intense connection. I think he is an sx-dom, and this is the sx's desire for the ultimate union.

IRT your question #2, regardless of personal psychological healths of both of you, between this and the postcard situation, I think you hit a HUGE thing here, maybe the center issue in all of this. I gleaned it too, from reading. I figured you were sp-dom before finding it in your profile, it just comes across in the way you describe your life. He's sx and you're sp and he feels how you make sure you're safe first and then make sure he is. As sx-dom, he's always going to make sure you're safe first and then make sure he is. So regardless of whatever happens after that first moment, he's going to keep feeling your lack of willingness to abandon yourself for him, and compare that to his willingness to abandon himself completely to you, and keep feeling like you don't do anything for him. I think you should bring this up to him and see if he feels that way.

I'm an sx-dom and I've always been drawn to non-sx-doms - sp-doms especially - and I do deeply understand this feeling of not-fair-ness, but I also don't think I want to be with an sx-dom... I've never been particularly drawn to them. I like my mate being very grounded. I think maybe you could make it clear to him that your way of providing for him is in part being stable in part for him, and that those sp-needs are just part and parcel to who you are. I get frustrated sometimes when my partner needs to attend to some personal matter or other before he can really attend to things together, but that independence and self-sufficiency is also extremely attractive to me, and he always includes me when calculating those personal matters. One of the other things that makes me love his sp-dom-ness is that by virtue of being sp, he helps me develop my own person. Sx-doms have the tendency to meld completely into something else, and that's wonderful to some extent, that's what makes us feel alive, but we can get lost down there, too, and surrender our will completely, and suddenly as that something else changes, find ourselves head over heels in something we don't support. I've had it happen. It's horrible. So... maybe you could talk to him about some of the benefits of your orientation, too. Try to get him to understand that it's not about the depth of your feeling for him; it's who you are and it can be really good for him. But you can also, via constant communication and acknowledgment, help him feel more included in your life, too. I love talks about how my partner and I balance each other. I think it's wonderful and fascinating. Maybe he would enjoy talking about that with you.

I am a bit confused by my new-found freedom. So, any thoughts at all? Thanks!

I agree with what @cascadeco said, here. It's good to step away emotionally sometimes, and get a "clearer" picture. Also, keep in mind that NFP temper tantrums usually involve poor Te invokage. So his list is probably more about the "theme" than about the individual points.

I think deciding whether or not you can have a balanced relationship with him is a major point. My partner is decidedly more emotionally stable than myself, but I think my ability to completely surround him in positive affirmation and love and protection helps make up for that. Does your INFP have enough strengths to be able to heal you as much as hurt you...?

 

[21%]

Dear everyone. Thanks for the responses! You guys are very helpful

It sounds like your partner has some personal issues causing him to lash out like that. He might feel powerless in the relationship, or just in his own life, for reasons that I could not guess at. And it sounds like he is expecting a lot from you, more than can be expected from even a SO. It sounds to me like he's attaching those problems to you.

I think you're right about the bolded. His situation right now is pretty stressful and the future seems very dark and uncertain, which is why I think I'm going to cut him some serious slack and trust that he doesn't mean to hurt me. You said you could relate to him -- would love to hear more about it if you don't mind!

You two aren't on equal positions of power, because he's got some significant self-work to do (doable self work, but like you say, it's not entirely up to you)
...
#ThingIHadToLearnTheHardWay: PhD dudes can dialogue about their emotions really well, but if they're not experiencing and feeling and sorting through their emotions, they're not actually doing any work--they're spinning their wheels indefinitely. They're outside the glass room looking in, not sensing things experientially.

I agree with all you said. Normally the idea of situation #2 and #3 will upset me and I would think that if I worked hard enough, I could make it happen. Now I've realized it's not up to me. It sounds idiotically simple and I can't believe why it took me so long to see this. After all, lots of people on this forum have told me and at that time I sort of understood it intellectually. Now I just realized what it really meant

True about PhD dudes. My boyfriend keeps saying his life was great until the PhD completely ruined it.

I'm not sure how you can help him, almost sounds like you can guide him to the water but can't make him drink kinda situation. You can't change him, I guess maybe you can just identify the problem with him, and then decide if you both will go in the same direction afterwards.
IMO it sounds like he wants you to be the one to make him happy. But we should not depend on others to make us happy. He has to say "I love myself, and I love my life" and accept things the way they are. Or make them better himself. He should be so happy to have such at person that's always there for him.

I think it's good that you've gotten to this 'place' where it seems you're at least a little less attached to an imperative-must-have-outcome - i.e. making things work whatever the cost. Because, in the end, maybe this relationship isn't what is best for both of you in the long run.
...
I wish all the best for you guys and hope you can continue having some honest discussions, either to grow together and work through this or to realize that it can't be sustained in the longterm for whatever reason.

Thanks! This is pretty new to me. I've 'detached' before, when I realized I was relying on having a great connection with him to make me happy. It was something he was sometimes unable to give. That was more out of self-preservation. This time is different, though. This is the first time I don't feel like I'm detaching. I'm reaching out with the same amount of communication and trust, but I don't get hurt if I don't get the same thing back. I think I like it this way

Pressuring you to get anything pierced is horrendous behaviour. Not acceptable. Body autonomy is a basic human right.

Srsly, if the mere expectation imprint wasn't enough, actually demanding physical integrity violation is just on the top of fucked up. Still, just a byproduct of the whole mindset, it could likely be that the more permanent the action is, the more it feels in his mind as a sign of commitment. Still, theories apart, just fucked up.

Yeah, he's said hurtful things before with his 'lashing out', which he doesn't mean, but that was just bordering on abusive for me.

As for the rest, this is a good read: relevant to your case and I think you've done most of the reasoning already.

I thought of that thread too when I was writing up the OP! I remember that the first time I read it I felt that the 'love relationship' sounded a bit too ideal -- and seems to imply an already healthy relationship "going a step further". I read it again and I'm not sure what to think now. I understand it a bit more, but I don't think it's somewhere you can go by yourself if your partner is totally not on the same page. The thing about 'not rewarding manipulative love' is hard to achieve in real life.

When I was a kid, the only time I ever threw a tantrum because I wanted a new toy, I was actually rewarded with the toy. I knew I acted badly, but I still felt like I was loved, and that I was loved unconditionally, and afterwards I was overwhelmed by feelings of guilt. I never wanted toys ever again.

I don't know how exactly to explain this, but I think I know why my boyfriend is acting the way he is. Perhaps it is because I've always been so 'rational' in my life decisions, and he understands it in a way -- but maybe he just needs that little bit more confirmation of that love before it can be the source of strength he needs in order to face life.

 

[Qlip]

Dear everyone. Thanks for the responses! You guys are very helpful


I think you're right about the bolded. His situation right now is pretty stressful and the future seems very dark and uncertain, which is why I think I'm going to cut him some serious slack and trust that he doesn't mean to hurt me. You said you could relate to him -- would love to hear more about it if you don't mind!

I'm an ENFP as you can see, who married young to an older INFJ. The relationship was unbalanced for many reasons besides age. As a result, I ended up taking a life path that badly disagreed with me and had little to do with what I wanted to do. Of course part of the problem is that I was totally out of touch with myself and my own wants/needs.

INFJs tend to have very strong visions in life, so I latched onto those and figured (unconsciously) that if i didn't know what I was doing, I may as well please her. I went many years without centering or developing myself and being miserable and ignoring it. So I was simultaneously attempting to please her and get approval and blaming her for how empty I felt.

She seemed the gateway to my happiness, so when I felt so profoundly unhappy.. it seemed to be her fault, somehow. I could only not help but think that I was unhappy because she didn't love me enough. This is a very easy idea to project on an INFJ, there's a reserve you have, and your ideas of how things should be feel strong and constraining if the other person feels like they have no power.

This all resulted in very strange desperate attempts to somehow fix things by Te'ing, changing things, buying things, requesting things.. looking to her for approval, interpreting lack of approval as witholding of love. I don't like that I was that way, at all.

The premise for the relationship was wrong in the first place, but maybe if I had figured out what was happening early we could of fixed it, we have kids and a lot of other things in common. But, by the time I knew what I needed, the well was already poisoned.

There is my tale of woe.

 

[prplchknz]

i don't understand the piercing thing, why does it matter to the INFP so much?

 

[Qlip]

i don't understand the piercing thing, why does it matter to the INFP so much?

It's a love test.

 

[Totenkindly]

I don't have a lot to say that hasn't already been said better, but I wanted you to know I care by posting something here.

But I'm always there for him emotionally, especially in the last three years where he is battling depression and stress. I always listen, and I always try to help him plan. He discusses his work with me and I really listen and think about it and give feedback. In the last three weeks or so we talked about literally nothing but his work. I think I'm being supportive and understanding.

I know he usually lashes out and says hurtful things when he is under stress. He can get into a very dark mood where he proclaims that he hates everything and the world hates him. When he is stressed he is emotionally closed off and I can forget trying to talk to him about anything. Even when I have problems, he isn't even willing to listen. Then afterwards sometimes he will feel sorry. He wil apologize. He does try. It's just that when he is stressed out he is so overwhelmed by negative emotions and thoughts there is no room for anything and anyone.

I'm not sure on this point, but when I was with my INFP guy, the fact he would allow himself to show negative emotion to me was a sign of vulnerability on his part. his normal mode is to always be kind and considerate. I found this with another INFP male friend of mine too; again, if he let you into his "dangerous" emotions, then it was actually a sign of deeper intimacy. Although both of them usually too did apologize and feel bad afterwards... but to me, I felt like I was privileged in a sense.

Then tonight I had a thought. I realized something that should be very obvious: I don't need to feel hurt. I know I love him and that's all I need to know. Because of this I should let go of all expectations. My love is mine to give and I will give it freely. I don't expect anything in return. I don't expect him to appreciate it. I don't expect him to treat me nicely. I can choose not to be hurt.

I thought this was very insightful on your part. And yes, the reality is that you can step back any time, and that your choice to give love is not based on how he treats you. You are not trapped, you are free. I find the idea very liberating.

Back in my marriage, I actually reached that point as well. I remember being so miserable all the time... and not just because of my identity complications but because I wasn't getting what I wanted in order to feel close to my spouse in the way I wanted to be, and realizing it would never happen. And one day I decided I had had enough and planned to leave... and then suddenly I realized that I didn't want to throw everything away. It was a shift similar to yours. I realized I could leave any time I wanted, but there were things about the relationship I valued, so I could make an active choice to stay and commit regardless of what I wasn't getting if I valued those other things enough. And that was okay. I wasn't a victim or trapped or overburdened, I was choosing to be where I was.

It really made a difference in my outlook. While the relationship ultimately failed for other reasons, that change in me marked a huge turning point in how I approached the relationship.

And suddenly, all the pain was gone. I actually felt happy, and light, and free. We talked again for a little bit and today he avoided the 'conflict' topics. He still said I don't do things for him, and when I asked if he could tell me why he felt that way, he said he didn't know. Then he didn't want to talk anymore. Usually I would be hurt by this, but not now. I even went as far as thinking how I would feel if he did not want the relationship anymore and I imagined us going our separate ways. It made me feel a little wistful, but there was no real pain.

I know you've expressed concern about whether this lack of pain comes from unhealthy detachment or positive reframing. I'm inclined, based on the content of your typical posts, to think the latter. It just sounds like you were putting so much pressure on yourself to make him happy and do everything right, but now you have been liberated. Because you aren't demanding anything from him, you don't need to feel threatened when he doesn't give it to you or when he criticizes you; you can just take it in stride. you are balanced inside now, and not dependent on him for stability. It's clear that you still care, but that your life doesn't depend on making him happy.

I think the same goes for this whole "I do nothing for him" issue. He secretly wants me to 'love him enough that I am willing to give up everything -- my life, my family, my job -- to be with him'. In reality, he is never going to make me do it, but he will feel satisfied that he is that important to me. The fact that I keep "not doing things" for him, although they are decisions that make sense logically, makes him feel unloved. I totally understand this. I can really sympathize with the need for intense connection. I think he is an sx-dom, and this is the sx's desire for the ultimate union.

Well, I'm not sure this kind of thing is purely SX. Maybe it's SX for INFPs, or for some individuals. I would never have asked you to pierce your ears, even if I would really want you to, because to me that would violate your identity; and I wouldn't take it as you shutting me out of intimacy or not loving me enough. I guess I look for other things to satisfy the yearning for connection.

 

[Fidelia]

You've gotten a lot of good advice. As INFJs, I think one of our strengths is that we can see situations from multiple perspectives and put ourselves in other people's shoes. The downside of that is that we can become overaccommodating because we have a lot invested in the relationship and think that somehow we can make things work if we just do the right thing and expend superhuman amounts of effort. The fact is, if he isn't happy and he's been unhappy for long periods of time already (eg not just a passing thing that's a matter of weeks or months that he needs support through), you can't make him happy, even if you did everything he wanted you to. Maybe he needs to also start expanding his support system to include more people than you, so that your actions do not carry the same kind of import. It's a very big load for one person to carry. After years of observation in my family, I've concluded that no one can truly fill that kind of unhappiness void but the person themselves. Until then, the help and love they receive just seems to run off without being absorbed. I think you are moving in a healthier direction where you at least are not dependent on his response to decide yours.

It sounds to me that you are more than pulling your weight in the relationship. An imbalance of power will not make for a healthy relationship in the longterm. So, as Usehername said, I guess you'll have to determine for yourself which of the three scenarios are most likely. I've been in that position before and I think it was only seeing some similar behaviours from my sister's spouse that gave me pause. I think I also discredited my own feelings as being over-sensitive, until getting a wider/closer circle of friends and realizing that they were seeing the same things that I was.

It's not all bad that you two live in different places so that you can maintain perspective and still have other people in your life. My guess is that if he lived close by, he would be a little threatened by anyone and anything that matter to you because he would see them as competition. No one person can provide everything a person needs, even if they are exceptionally giving. If you were to be together longterm and have a family, does it appear to you that he at some point would have the margin of resources (emotional and otherwise) needed to care for more than himself?

If you give up more and more to be with him, you will be less and less likely to consider the possibility that the relationship may not be workable right now, even if he possesses qualities that are wonderful. I'm not saying that you should break up with him. Rather, that in the process of being understanding and trying to help him, it's possible to lose yourself and have nothing left to give without even realizing it while it's happening. The way you are thinking of things right now will help a lot with that. As an impartial observer (realizing I don't know him and haven't seen you interact), I'd just like to remind you that you are just as deserving of care as he is. Don't forget that in the process!

 

[21%]

[MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] Thank you so much for your insight on the issue. After rereading and mulling things over, I think I'm starting to understand the situation now from a whole new perspective.

IRT your question #2, regardless of personal psychological healths of both of you, between this and the postcard situation, I think you hit a HUGE thing here, maybe the center issue in all of this. I gleaned it too, from reading. I figured you were sp-dom before finding it in your profile, it just comes across in the way you describe your life. He's sx and you're sp and he feels how you make sure you're safe first and then make sure he is. As sx-dom, he's always going to make sure you're safe first and then make sure he is. So regardless of whatever happens after that first moment, he's going to keep feeling your lack of willingness to abandon yourself for him, and compare that to his willingness to abandon himself completely to you, and keep feeling like you don't do anything for him. I think you should bring this up to him and see if he feels that way.

I think it can very well be the center issue of all the conflicts in our relationship. I know that deep down I really need a sense of stability. What that is is pretty vague, but at least I need to have an idea where I am going so I can take steps to plan how to realistically achieve it, which will make me feel safe and secure. This is something he is currently unable to give. He doesn't know what he wants in the future, where he wants to be, what he wants to do. If he says "After the PhD I'm going to find a job at XYZ and you can think about whether you can come live with me", that will be different. I can actually start to look at my options. Right now all I get is "I don't know. I'm stressed. I have no future. I don't want to think about it."

For him, however, maybe he just needs that confirmation that I will be with him no matter what. Maybe this is why he feels like I don't give him enough love, but when we argue he cannot tell why exactly he is unhappy and what I am doing wrong. Recently he has finally come up with an explanation that his feelings are irrational, but maybe it all stemmed from this need for the ultimate union that is simply beyond reason. Like the postcard incident -- he wanted reassurance from me that he was the most important thing, so if I had tried to reason with him how the postcard did not mean anything to me but I wanted to keep it because it was sent to me by my friend, who was really a friend and he should not feel jealous, the situation would have become a huge deal and not just a 2-second exchange.

In a way it is a paradox, made worse by real life issues. I feel like he is asking me to jump out a plane without a parachute, and he feels that my firm "No" to that means I don't love him. He might be feeling like I am too focused on the destination than the journey, in a sense that his company alone is not good enough and I need to know where we are going too. All this is made even more complicated by his depression, the long-distance, different cultural expectations.

I'm an sx-dom and I've always been drawn to non-sx-doms - sp-doms especially - and I do deeply understand this feeling of not-fair-ness, but I also don't think I want to be with an sx-dom... I've never been particularly drawn to them. I like my mate being very grounded. I think maybe you could make it clear to him that your way of providing for him is in part being stable in part for him, and that those sp-needs are just part and parcel to who you are. I get frustrated sometimes when my partner needs to attend to some personal matter or other before he can really attend to things together, but that independence and self-sufficiency is also extremely attractive to me, and he always includes me when calculating those personal matters. One of the other things that makes me love his sp-dom-ness is that by virtue of being sp, he helps me develop my own person. Sx-doms have the tendency to meld completely into something else, and that's wonderful to some extent, that's what makes us feel alive, but we can get lost down there, too, and surrender our will completely, and suddenly as that something else changes, find ourselves head over heels in something we don't support. I've had it happen. It's horrible. So... maybe you could talk to him about some of the benefits of your orientation, too. Try to get him to understand that it's not about the depth of your feeling for him; it's who you are and it can be really good for him. But you can also, via constant communication and acknowledgment, help him feel more included in your life, too. I love talks about how my partner and I balance each other. I think it's wonderful and fascinating. Maybe he would enjoy talking about that with you.

This is how I feel exactly! Why I need stability so much is because he is unable to provide me any, so I need to be sure that in the worst case scenario, I will be able to provide that for both of us.

I don't know but I feel like he secretly likes it when I am irrational, like when I give him a hard time because "We don't talk enough" and he has to be the one to explain that he has work to do, or when I get jealous of him when he spends time with someone else. He gets annoyed sometimes when I act like that, but I can't help but feel that deep down it makes him feel like I love him. It is like knowing that you matter to your partner and that they will be deeply hurt if you leave them. This is not totally healthy, but I completely understand.

Also, keep in mind that NFP temper tantrums usually involve poor Te invokage. So his list is probably more about the "theme" than about the individual points.

That's a good point!

I think deciding whether or not you can have a balanced relationship with him is a major point. My partner is decidedly more emotionally stable than myself, but I think my ability to completely surround him in positive affirmation and love and protection helps make up for that. Does your INFP have enough strengths to be able to heal you as much as hurt you...?

I think most of our problems come out when we are not physically together. When we are together, I don't know if it's because we are so happy we just gloss over everything or if we communicate better, but we rarely have disagreements. He is usually very sensitive and very caring. Most of this 'lashing out' of his happens when he is under stress, which unfortunately is the whole time we are not together.

He is a 9w1, and he avoids thinking about problems most of the time, so that doesn't help. I have tried to bring up deep, underlying issues, and it works when we are together in the same room and he feels relax enough to think about them. When we are apart, however, he just avoids difficult issues altogether and will just rather do things to distract himself from the negative feelings.

I think he is going to view my 'freedom' as more evidence that I don't love him that much. Last night he seemed a bit bothered that I did not insist on having a long conversation or get sad when he said he could not talk because he was in the library. Currently I'm still analyzing my state of mind and I don't get it 100%, and I have no idea how I'm going to explain it to him.

Now I'm really starting to feel bad for him, though. Again, I can't help but feel like I'm not taking care of him well enough and that perhaps if I indulged him only a little bit more, he will feel loved

[MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION] Thank you so much for sharing I'm really sorry to hear what happened. Reading your post made a lot of things clearer for me. My boyfriend does feel powerless in the relationship because of the situation and this could be contributing to everything else [MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] has mentioned. He keeps asking why he doesn't get to decide anything in the relationship, like why he cannot get me to come visit him (we agreed it would make more sense financially for him to visit), or why our hang out time is up to me (meaning my work schedule). We both know the rational answer for all that and when we really discuss it he admits he is being unreasonable. I think I understand more now why he would feel that way.

I feel like he wants to know that if he ever gives me the ultimatum I will choose him. By being self-sufficient, I am in a way denying him that comfort. It sounds messed up, but I totally understand it.

I just wonder if there is anything I can do to make him feel reassured. If a short visit will make him feel a lot better, of course I will do it, even if it means quite a significant amount of money for only a week together.

i don't understand the piercing thing, why does it matter to the INFP so much?

I don't think it's exactly about the piercings. For him, I think, it's another "No" in his book of the things I won't do.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Recently my INFP said that that I never do anything for him, during a disagreement. He had been pestering me to get piercings, and I told him that I really did not want to get them. I don't even have my ears pierced! He then started lashing out and said I never did things for him, and proceeded to listing out the things he wanted but I never did for him.

He's trying to attach Te reasons to Fi things to try to be understood. It can have a tendency to not "come out right" and seem illogical though. In the throes of a complex emotional issue, and especially when INFP's are young, it can be a real challenge to attach words to those inner feelings and have them make sense in the outside world. It's why this has a smack of irrationality to it as well. You're right in understanding that this isn't really about those specific "things" it's more about what they represent as a theme.

The things include:
- Me not wanting to move Long story short: I told him even before we got into a relationship that I was not willing to relocate and he should really think about it whether he wanted a relationship that was bound to become long-distance soon -- he jumped into it without thinking, saying he would move to be with me. To be honest, if he finds a job somewhere else in the world I will seriously consider doing some freelance work so I will be able to be with him at least for a certain amount of time in a year. I'm not willing to totally move away, but I will definitely try to 'make things work'.
- During his visit, I never take days off work to be with him I have a full time job, and on most days I did leave work a couple of hours early to avoid traffic. I took a few full days off, but a lot of half-days. I only have one full day off each week, and that day is always his, from the moment we wake up until bedtime.
- Beach trip that never happened This is partly my fault, as I mentioned I was working on one as his birthday gift. During the last few weeks of his visit, however, lots of things happened. His landlord decided to get a new tenant and he had to look for a new place, loan problems, etc., and we were both stressed trying to handle all the things that needed to be done.
- He is always the one visiting It's true. But I have a job, and being a PhD student he has months-long summer holidays, so it is more sensible for him to come visit. He pays for the flights, and I pay for his rent when he is here, which come out to about the same amount of money, which equals my 3-4 months' savings.
- I won't get my body pierced for him It's true. I don't want piercings. I really don't want them. I don't think this is really relevant, though. It was just a breaking point for deeper issues.

The theme here is him feeling like he's the one doing the majority of the "bending". Granted, you bend a great deal for him too, but overall he's seeing and sensing that (unlike him) you have a core of things that you will not do. He likely does not feel as grounded and certain as that, and indeed, as INFP's we are just not wired as rigidly, even though we have value standards. As a 9, he's also bendier too - he's wired to merge and accommodate and feels a certain satisfaction in being this way, whilst at the same time resisting a loss of his own self in the middle of that. It can be a difficult balancing act there. Sometimes it's hard feeling like you're in that role the majority of the time, even if that's not a fully accurate interpretation. Especially when it revolves around the large life-choices, rather than smaller, more incidental topics (like the piercings ... he pushes that out there as evidence that you won't bend even on the "small" things either. Irrational yes, and don't you dare get a piercing for him kk?)

But I'm always there for him emotionally, especially in the last three years where he is battling depression and stress. I always listen, and I always try to help him plan. He discusses his work with me and I really listen and think about it and give feedback. In the last three weeks or so we talked about literally nothing but his work. I think I'm being supportive and understanding.

No doubt you are. You sound like you are trying very hard to be a wonderful partner.

I know he usually lashes out and says hurtful things when he is under stress. He can get into a very dark mood where he proclaims that he hates everything and the world hates him. When he is stressed he is emotionally closed off and I can forget trying to talk to him about anything. Even when I have problems, he isn't even willing to listen. Then afterwards sometimes he will feel sorry. He wil apologize. He does try. It's just that when he is stressed out he is so overwhelmed by negative emotions and thoughts there is no room for anything and anyone.

This sounds like immature Fi. Almost like an ESTJ's Fi. In order to help mature it, he needs to get that Ne involved in the picture of his own problem-solving rather than linger in the throes of dark Fi and spill it out onto other people. And other people can't solve this for him. It's purely an internal process of making a conscious choice to get one's head out of one's butt and out into the real world.

Then tonight I had a thought. I realized something that should be very obvious: I don't need to feel hurt. I know I love him and that's all I need to know. Because of this I should let go of all expectations. My love is mine to give and I will give it freely. I don't expect anything in return. I don't expect him to appreciate it. I don't expect him to treat me nicely. I can choose not to be hurt.

This is actually very mature and wise, a stepping stone to understanding what love is. Love is something you do. It's a choice. However, you do have a right to be treated nicely and to be appreciated as a partner in a relationship. Otherwise, you are casting your pearls before swine.

Am I 'growing' in my love or did I just 'unconsciously extract myself from caring too much because it's too hard'? I'm sure I want to be with him, but I feel like it's not entirely up to me and I can't make things happen. I'm doing my best to work towards a future (although it feels a bit one-sided), but if it doesn't work out then there is nothing I can do about it. I am trying my best and if he has a better idea about how things can be, I'm all ears. In a way, I feel like I'm freeing myself from responsibility, and it feels great. The fact that it feels great is making me question myself if I really feel that way or is it something I made up to fool myself to mask over the hurt.

I see it as a growth point. It's positive.


Towards the near future: You are close to the ultimatum. You need to lay it all out plain again, that you will not move, and he will need to decide if those are terms he can live with. Neither of you can avoid this question forever. You never hid this from him so he cannot rebel against it now, no matter how much he does not like it. He made his choice to pursue you regardless and HE must own that. Soon you both will have to face this because his resentment is growing and bursting out in irrational ways.

 

[21%]

Thank you for your input [MENTION=7]Jennifer[/MENTION] and [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION]

I'm not sure on this point, but when I was with my INFP guy, the fact he would allow himself to show negative emotion to me was a sign of vulnerability on his part. his normal mode is to always be kind and considerate. I found this with another INFP male friend of mine too; again, if he let you into his "dangerous" emotions, then it was actually a sign of deeper intimacy. Although both of them usually too did apologize and feel bad afterwards... but to me, I felt like I was privileged in a sense.

That's an interesting point of view! One weird thing about our relationship is that I have never seen my boyfriend interact much with other people at all. All the time we were together (before the long-distance thing), the only people around were the other flatmates, who were all 'friends' any way, and even so we rarely ever hung out with them! Basically it was pretty much one-on-one from the very beginning. Maybe this is why I have always felt our relationship is so intensely private. When we hang out with other people (mainly my friends and family), he has a 'public persona' that is amazingly easy-going and agreeable that I sometimes almost can't recognize. With his recent depression, sometimes I can't help but think "Wow, why isn't he this easy-going when he's alone with me!"

I thought this was very insightful on your part. And yes, the reality is that you can step back any time, and that your choice to give love is not based on how he treats you. You are not trapped, you are free. I find the idea very liberating.

Back in my marriage, I actually reached that point as well. I remember being so miserable all the time... and not just because of my identity complications but because I wasn't getting what I wanted in order to feel close to my spouse in the way I wanted to be, and realizing it would never happen. And one day I decided I had had enough and planned to leave... and then suddenly I realized that I didn't want to throw everything away. It was a shift similar to yours. I realized I could leave any time I wanted, but there were things about the relationship I valued, so I could make an active choice to stay and commit regardless of what I wasn't getting if I valued those other things enough. And that was okay. I wasn't a victim or trapped or overburdened, I was choosing to be where I was.

It really made a difference in my outlook. While the relationship ultimately failed for other reasons, that change in me marked a huge turning point in how I approached the relationship.

I know you've expressed concern about whether this lack of pain comes from unhealthy detachment or positive reframing. I'm inclined, based on the content of your typical posts, to think the latter. It just sounds like you were putting so much pressure on yourself to make him happy and do everything right, but now you have been liberated. Because you aren't demanding anything from him, you don't need to feel threatened when he doesn't give it to you or when he criticizes you; you can just take it in stride. you are balanced inside now, and not dependent on him for stability. It's clear that you still care, but that your life doesn't depend on making him happy.

Thanks for sharing! I guess it's these 'click' moments that are truly life-changing. I really hope it is the latter, though. After we fought he apologized for "being mean", but we never addressed the issue properly again. We haven't talked much these past couple of days, and I was trying to explain to him what I just discovered -- that I want to talk to him but don't need to talk -- which he might have interpreted as evidence that I don't care about him anymore. I really wish we could discuss it properly.

Today I was out with the family and I felt that I was noticing a lot of beautiful little things along the way, like the pattern of the drizzle on the slightly-flooded street, and the wet and refreshing smell in the air. I realized I had not felt like this in a long while. It was like I was so obsessed with making the relationship work that I totally forgot who I was or what I was doing. Suddenly I felt so alive and glad to be alive, so I guess it's a good thing.

Well, I'm not sure this kind of thing is purely SX. Maybe it's SX for INFPs, or for some individuals. I would never have asked you to pierce your ears, even if I would really want you to, because to me that would violate your identity; and I wouldn't take it as you shutting me out of intimacy or not loving me enough. I guess I look for other things to satisfy the yearning for connection.

Maybe it's not about the piercings. I think he definitely has some abandonment issues and needs a lot of reaffirmation. Under stress, it can sometimes get a bit ugly :sigh:

You've gotten a lot of good advice. As INFJs, I think one of our strengths is that we can see situations from multiple perspectives and put ourselves in other people's shoes. The downside of that is that we can become overaccommodating because we have a lot invested in the relationship and think that somehow we can make things work if we just do the right thing and expend superhuman amounts of effort. The fact is, if he isn't happy and he's been unhappy for long periods of time already (eg not just a passing thing that's a matter of weeks or months that he needs support through), you can't make him happy, even if you did everything he wanted you to. Maybe he needs to also start expanding his support system to include more people than you, so that your actions do not carry the same kind of import. It's a very big load for one person to carry. After years of observation in my family, I've concluded that no one can truly fill that kind of unhappiness void but the person themselves. Until then, the help and love they receive just seems to run off without being absorbed. I think you are moving in a healthier direction where you at least are not dependent on his response to decide yours.

It sounds to me that you are more than pulling your weight in the relationship. An imbalance of power will not make for a healthy relationship in the longterm. So, as Usehername said, I guess you'll have to determine for yourself which of the three scenarios are most likely. I've been in that position before and I think it was only seeing some similar behaviours from my sister's spouse that gave me pause. I think I also discredited my own feelings as being over-sensitive, until getting a wider/closer circle of friends and realizing that they were seeing the same things that I was.

It's not all bad that you two live in different places so that you can maintain perspective and still have other people in your life. My guess is that if he lived close by, he would be a little threatened by anyone and anything that matter to you because he would see them as competition. No one person can provide everything a person needs, even if they are exceptionally giving. If you were to be together longterm and have a family, does it appear to you that he at some point would have the margin of resources (emotional and otherwise) needed to care for more than himself?

If you give up more and more to be with him, you will be less and less likely to consider the possibility that the relationship may not be workable right now, even if he possesses qualities that are wonderful. I'm not saying that you should break up with him. Rather, that in the process of being understanding and trying to help him, it's possible to lose yourself and have nothing left to give without even realizing it while it's happening. The way you are thinking of things right now will help a lot with that. As an impartial observer (realizing I don't know him and haven't seen you interact), I'd just like to remind you that you are just as deserving of care as he is. Don't forget that in the process!

Yes, I've come to realize now that I cannot fix his problems for him. It is something a little scary. I have always felt responsible for everything, and when something does not work I feel like it is because I am not doing my best. I can certainly identify with all you said!

I think if we were not forced to go long-distance a lot of these issues would not have surfaced. When we are together, my constant presence is usually *just* enough to get him by. However, deep down he can still be building resentment. It might be better that we are apart right now and the issues are made known. I feel like at the moment he doesn't know himself very well, and I try to talk to him and reflect what I see back to him, which sometimes takes him by total surprise. For example, he never realized how much his worldview and behaviors were affected by his mood and always thought of himself as a rational thinker. When I pointed it out to him it was the first time that self-image was challenged and I could tell he was genuinely surprised!

As for the bolded, yes, he is very capable of being caring for others. When he feels good about life, he is an amazing person, very considerate, very nurturing, very accepting. But before we can get there, I think he still has to do a lot of internal work and reach a point where he really understands what he is doing.

I can really feel for him, and I think when he does things that hurt me, it is done out of the lack of a clear sense of his own self and needs. Sometimes there are unconscious childish games involved, like keeping scores, which tend to make the issues worse and create more hurt feelings on both sides. I think with my new approach to the relationship, hopefully I will be better at not getting trapped in these unhealthy loops.

 

[Jaguar]

Recently my INFP said that that I never do anything for him, during a disagreement. He had been pestering me to get piercings, and I told him that I really did not want to get them. I don't even have my ears pierced! He then started lashing out and said I never did things for him, and proceeded to listing out the things he wanted but I never did for him.

No woman should have to deal with that kind of nonsense.

 

[skylights]

@skylights Thank you so much for your insight on the issue. After rereading and mulling things over, I think I'm starting to understand the situation now from a whole new perspective.

You're welcome, and I actually really appreciate reading about your feelings as an sp-dom, because it gives me insight into the challenges in my own relationship, too. Even just today, my boyfriend and I drove separately to our mutual workplace, at the same time of morning, for the same shift, and I felt frustrated/rejected/left behind - but he needs to drive himself to feel secure, because he wants to be sure he gets there on time and can leave if and when he needs or wants to. It's so sp-dom, lol. I've just had to accept that as one of his needs and try to move past it. The upside is I can sing really loud to ridiculous music in my car without him knowing... ...

I think it can very well be the center issue of all the conflicts in our relationship. I know that deep down I really need a sense of stability. What that is is pretty vague, but at least I need to have an idea where I am going so I can take steps to plan how to realistically achieve it, which will make me feel safe and secure. This is something he is currently unable to give. He doesn't know what he wants in the future, where he wants to be, what he wants to do. If he says "After the PhD I'm going to find a job at XYZ and you can think about whether you can come live with me", that will be different. I can actually start to look at my options. Right now all I get is "I don't know. I'm stressed. I have no future. I don't want to think about it."

For him, however, maybe he just needs that confirmation that I will be with him no matter what. Maybe this is why he feels like I don't give him enough love, but when we argue he cannot tell why exactly he is unhappy and what I am doing wrong. Recently he has finally come up with an explanation that his feelings are irrational, but maybe it all stemmed from this need for the ultimate union that is simply beyond reason. Like the postcard incident -- he wanted reassurance from me that he was the most important thing, so if I had tried to reason with him how the postcard did not mean anything to me but I wanted to keep it because it was sent to me by my friend, who was really a friend and he should not feel jealous, the situation would have become a huge deal and not just a 2-second exchange.

I will admit that I have a hard time with jealousy in situations like that, too. I have always been very adamant about not being "that jealous bitch", but the constant nagging insecurity feelings from the thought that your partner might have another love interest are horrible, at least to me, and I'm guessing for many sx-doms. They eat away at me and completely subsume my emotional state. It's like the entire earth has been pulled out from under you... it's actually kind of funny how it's similar to sp concerns, when we think about it in terms of needing to be sure that everything is okay regarding this realm of life before we can attend to other things.

In regards to the bolded, since I only really have myself as reference, I'm trying to figure out what it is exactly that I seek from my partner to feel stable in the sx-realm, because it's along those lines but I think I would phrase it differently... it's a different kind of mindframe, so to speak. I don't want him to sacrifice his independence nor his self-sufficiency - that would be very disappointing, actually - but I do want to make sure that he considers myself to be part of him. As long as that is true, then I don't have any major fears about our relationship, because being part of him automatically ensures that he will take care of me. I think maybe that melding of identities is very much the purpose of the sx drive, in that one ensures that they will be taken care of by having someone else or something else in part "become" them (and equally, we desire to take care of someone / something else by allowing them to "become" us). I fully understand that my partner is not going to devote himself to me completely, and I'm glad for that, I don't want him to give in to me completely, but I do want to be a part of him. I think to give an sx-dom stability, you have to let them know that you're so affected by them that you desire to keep them within yourself, that you want to, in part, belong to them, and have them, in part, belong to you. This jumps ahead a little, but I think perhaps part of the reason that you're okay when you're together is probably that he can see and feel this while you're together, but it's much harder when you're apart.

As a sidenote, I think being with a 9 can be particularly challenging in terms of sorting out relationship issues because it's almost like their subconscious protects them from strife by blinding them to the causes of their feelings. My boyfriend has this issue too where he will not always know why (and being a hyper-analytical 6 this is like HOW IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE, I'm sure you feel similarly as an introspective 4 / analytical w5!), but he will feel very strongly about something.

In a way it is a paradox, made worse by real life issues. I feel like he is asking me to jump out a plane without a parachute, and he feels that my firm "No" to that means I don't love him. He might be feeling like I am too focused on the destination than the journey, in a sense that his company alone is not good enough and I need to know where we are going too. All this is made even more complicated by his depression, the long-distance, different cultural expectations.

Yes, he might feel that you are so driven to do those things that you miss really good opportunities to connect. As sx, he's always looking for ways for you guys to connect and he probably feels like not only are you not looking for them, but you're also routinely, actively choosing other things over them, because he's probably presenting them to you often. I try to think of it in terms of I am a connection specialist and he is a life survival specialist and we would do best to find a balance between us, since I take care of our unit and he takes care of us as individuals. I hope you can see him like that, too, and understand that his obsession and annoyingness is in part that he is wired to optimize his relationships at all costs.

As for the bold, I feel your anxiety and I'm sorry, it sounds painful . On the bright side - I doubt he actually has any real problems with you wanting/needing a parachute. The issue, I suspect, is probably more about him perceiving you as consciously choosing the parachute over him, which, I'm guessing, does not feel true from your standpoint. After all, you can have your parachute and jump with him, too! (Better yet, you can make sure that crazy boy is also strapped in.) I think part of what might help is to delineate very clearly to him situations where you need to be doing sp-things and explaining that you don't love him any less for it, but you just have to do those things because that is who you are (an NFP should understand that). Even better if you can involve him in them, and he should be a very good helper, if you direct him. I love doing really mundane things like going with my boyfriend to get routine car maintenance done, because I'm really good at taking a "boring-but-necessary" situation like that and turning it into a fun opportunity for connection - last time I "kidnapped" him from the garage and took him down the street for frozen yogurt. And then he feels useful, too, which I'm guessing would be really good for him.

This is how I feel exactly! Why I need stability so much is because he is unable to provide me any, so I need to be sure that in the worst case scenario, I will be able to provide that for both of us.

I don't know but I feel like he secretly likes it when I am irrational, like when I give him a hard time because "We don't talk enough" and he has to be the one to explain that he has work to do, or when I get jealous of him when he spends time with someone else. He gets annoyed sometimes when I act like that, but I can't help but feel that deep down it makes him feel like I love him. It is like knowing that you matter to your partner and that they will be deeply hurt if you leave them. This is not totally healthy, but I completely understand.

I would imagine you're right. For someone who is always paying attention to someone else and the relationship with someone else, while they seem to be paying attention to anything else, it's really nice when the tables turn and they express that they actually do pay attention to the relationship, too. I think it's important that it's not necessarily about paying attention to him as much as the connection between you and him. I suspect that maybe this gets lost in translation... you feel like he needs you a lot, and he expresses that he's not getting what he needs... but that's because he actually wants your focus on the bond between you, not necessarily on himself. It often feels hollow to me when the focus is only on me and not on both of us, even when the intention is very sweet. I think it is very much about knowing you matter to your partner and that they will be negatively affected without your bond. It's kind of a sad thing, though, a desperate thing, when it comes out in unhealthy ways like that. It means that he's not getting the sx affirmation he needs... the hard thing for sx doms is that, if we are in relationships, we must get that affirmation from our partner, and can't provide it for ourselves, like you generally can with sp needs. I am so sorry to say this because I think it will hurt for you too, but I suspect that maybe you are also leaving him feeling like he is out of the plane with no parachute.

That's a good point!

I only just realized it myself A useful realization, lol, so thank you for prompting it!

I think most of our problems come out when we are not physically together. When we are together, I don't know if it's because we are so happy we just gloss over everything or if we communicate better, but we rarely have disagreements. He is usually very sensitive and very caring. Most of this 'lashing out' of his happens when he is under stress, which unfortunately is the whole time we are not together.

I think that you can help ease his stress with a steady stream of emotional support and focus on your connection, if you are willing to do that. I actually enjoy being away from my partner at times because it's like we have a "special", understood connection then. It almost heightens our connection, which is like crack to me.

He is a 9w1, and he avoids thinking about problems most of the time, so that doesn't help. I have tried to bring up deep, underlying issues, and it works when we are together in the same room and he feels relax enough to think about them. When we are apart, however, he just avoids difficult issues altogether and will just rather do things to distract himself from the negative feelings.

Yeah I understand that. 9s are a special challenge. It always seems like he feels very threatened when I bring up issues. To me, they already exist, so there is no difference in bringing them up versus not. Might as well bring them up, then at least you can address them. To him, it's not a problem until you call it a problem. Maybe @PeaceBaby can help with any suggestions about how to bring conflict up with 9s? Pretty please?

I think he is going to view my 'freedom' as more evidence that I don't love him that much. Last night he seemed a bit bothered that I did not insist on having a long conversation or get sad when he said he could not talk because he was in the library. Currently I'm still analyzing my state of mind and I don't get it 100%, and I have no idea how I'm going to explain it to him.

Honestly, I think you might just want to attribute it to being caught up in worry about [specific event], until you figure out how you want to address it all with him. I don't think knowing that will help him any at this point.

Now I'm really starting to feel bad for him, though. Again, I can't help but feel like I'm not taking care of him well enough and that perhaps if I indulged him only a little bit more, he will feel loved

I think so! There's no reason you should feel bad though, we're all naturally blinded to it, and by writing this thread you're already working on it. We all accidentally hurt each other because of our difference perspectives and all we can do is work on it. The great thing about all of this is that I honestly think your problem is a fairly easy fix of affirming him in the way he naturally needs to be affirmed. I don't think you need to drop a ton of money on a visit, though I do think it would go very far to show up on his doorstep one day. His depression is another issue entirely, and it is an extra burden on you to deal with someone going through a psychological crisis.

But, like the piercings, I don't think it's the cause here, just a red herring in the mix.

 

[AgentF]

I think to give an sx-dom stability, you have to let them know that you're so affected by them that you desire to keep them within yourself, that you want to, in part, belong to them, and have them, in part, belong to you.

quite so.