[INFP] You don't do anything for me!

[Usehername]

in the process of being understanding and trying to help him, it's possible to lose yourself and have nothing left to give without even realizing it while it's happening.

This is so true.

To balance out the power, I had to put a figurative tourniquet on parts of my heart that felt his pain that he would tell me was no big deal. I did this until the lack of figurative oxygen to my healthy heart made me behave weird. And then I finally got to the point where it was too much, and that was really unpleasant to fix. Especially the woozy desperateness phase that started the initial healing.

It's so incremental it seems bearable, until it's not, and then I was very weak for a while. I wish I would've broken up with him when I brought the significant problems to him much earlier, and he told me he was dealing with them (which I'm sure he thought he was, because his healthiness barometer was so off). Words don't count, action does.

 

[21%]

Thanks PB!

He's trying to attach Te reasons to Fi things to try to be understood. It can have a tendency to not "come out right" and seem illogical though. In the throes of a complex emotional issue, and especially when INFP's are young, it can be a real challenge to attach words to those inner feelings and have them make sense in the outside world. It's why this has a smack of irrationality to it as well. You're right in understanding that this isn't really about those specific "things" it's more about what they represent as a theme.

I noticed this a lot too! When we argue, sometimes he will be going off on something, but when I want clarification on what he meant, he will be unable to elaborate. Then he gets frustrated at not knowing how to put his feelings to words and will either try to not talk about it anymore or start saying hurtful things on purpose to sort of 'illustrate' how he feels.

The theme here is him feeling like he's the one doing the majority of the "bending". Granted, you bend a great deal for him too, but overall he's seeing and sensing that (unlike him) you have a core of things that you will not do. He likely does not feel as grounded and certain as that, and indeed, as INFP's we are just not wired as rigidly, even though we have value standards. As a 9, he's also bendier too - he's wired to merge and accommodate and feels a certain satisfaction in being this way, whilst at the same time resisting a loss of his own self in the middle of that. It can be a difficult balancing act there. Sometimes it's hard feeling like you're in that role the majority of the time, even if that's not a fully accurate interpretation. Especially when it revolves around the large life-choices, rather than smaller, more incidental topics

That makes a lot of sense! I thought his hurt means that he takes for granted the things I do and see no value in them. When you put it that way (bolded) it makes perfect sense! I recall him calling these my "absolute no's" and how he doesn't have any, and at that time I thought "You can have absolute no's too and I will respect them!"

I really don't know how to solve this. I feel like I have a very strong awareness of my own identity and I want to help him find his own identity too (if that's how it works). Sometimes I can feel his internal struggle to maintain his own self, like he will agree to do something with me, but then he will feel a little resentful for having to do it without knowing why he's feeling that way. I can sense the struggle under the surface, and I really don't want to impose things on him, but at the same time I don't know how to deal with it since a decision has to be made and he is not presenting any other opinions on the matter.

The same thing goes for life choices. I would very much like him to come up with "Hey, this is what I think will work for me. Can you work with this?", then we can start thinking. Right now because he doesn't have anything concrete (and he doesn't like to have things concrete anyway) I understand why he keeps feeling like my concrete plans will always trump his non-concrete possibility tangents.

(like the piercings ... he pushes that out there as evidence that you won't bend even on the "small" things either. Irrational yes, and don't you dare get a piercing for him kk?)

ok

This sounds like immature Fi. Almost like an ESTJ's Fi. In order to help mature it, he needs to get that Ne involved in the picture of his own problem-solving rather than linger in the throes of dark Fi and spill it out onto other people. And other people can't solve this for him. It's purely an internal process of making a conscious choice to get one's head out of one's butt and out into the real world.

Is there anything I can do about this to help him along the way at all?

Towards the near future: You are close to the ultimatum. You need to lay it all out plain again, that you will not move, and he will need to decide if those are terms he can live with. Neither of you can avoid this question forever. You never hid this from him so he cannot rebel against it now, no matter how much he does not like it. He made his choice to pursue you regardless and HE must own that. Soon you both will have to face this because his resentment is growing and bursting out in irrational ways.

He still has 2 years before he finishes the PhD, so he still has a bit of time. What worries me is that he is not making preparations in any direction. It's more like he doesn't know exactly what he wants, so he is waiting for things to happen. When things happen and are not to his liking, however, he just gets depressed. I think if forced to choose, he might choose to move after all, but he will always feel that it is my fault. He will be doing it out of need, and not want, and that's the last thing I want to happen. I can't really bring these things up without him feeling like he is being criticized somehow, but I really want to help!

I have actually been thinking about us going separate ways for a short while to gain perspective on the matter, but I know he will never ever understand this and it might end up doing more damage than actually helping us to grow.

My feeling is that we are now so tangled, in memories, in real life events, in our perception of how the situation is, so our arguments go in endless circles. We need a breath of fresh air to remember who we are and what really matters...

 

[21%]

You're welcome, and I actually really appreciate reading about your feelings as an sp-dom, because it gives me insight into the challenges in my own relationship, too. Even just today, my boyfriend and I drove separately to our mutual workplace, at the same time of morning, for the same shift, and I felt frustrated/rejected/left behind - but he needs to drive himself to feel secure, because he wants to be sure he gets there on time and can leave if and when he needs or wants to. It's so sp-dom, lol. I've just had to accept that as one of his needs and try to move past it. The upside is I can sing really loud to ridiculous music in my car without him knowing... ...

That actually sounds quite reasonable I think, to him, there are "things in the world that need to be dealt with" that have nothing to do with the relationship. I view it as "getting all the crap out of the way" so as to create a safe space where our relationship can thrive. So it's not that these things matter in themselves, but are just precautionary action to make sure life goes on smoothly.

I will admit that I have a hard time with jealousy in situations like that, too. I have always been very adamant about not being "that jealous bitch", but the constant nagging insecurity feelings from the thought that your partner might have another love interest are horrible, at least to me, and I'm guessing for many sx-doms. They eat away at me and completely subsume my emotional state. It's like the entire earth has been pulled out from under you... it's actually kind of funny how it's similar to sp concerns, when we think about it in terms of needing to be sure that everything is okay regarding this realm of life before we can attend to other things.

Yeah, my boyfriend is (secretly) extremely jealous. I had no idea the feeling is that intense! I've always thought I was the jealous one, but I'm quite easily appeased and a few words will make me feel loved. I think he is secretly jealous of everyone that has my attention -- not just the potential of another love interest -- even people who I consider "things to get out of the way". He tries not to show it, though.

In regards to the bolded, since I only really have myself as reference, I'm trying to figure out what it is exactly that I seek from my partner to feel stable in the sx-realm, because it's along those lines but I think I would phrase it differently... it's a different kind of mindframe, so to speak. I don't want him to sacrifice his independence nor his self-sufficiency - that would be very disappointing, actually - but I do want to make sure that he considers myself to be part of him. As long as that is true, then I don't have any major fears about our relationship, because being part of him automatically ensures that he will take care of me. I think maybe that melding of identities is very much the purpose of the sx drive, in that one ensures that they will be taken care of by having someone else or something else in part "become" them (and equally, we desire to take care of someone / something else by allowing them to "become" us). I fully understand that my partner is not going to devote himself to me completely, and I'm glad for that, I don't want him to give in to me completely, but I do want to be a part of him. I think to give an sx-dom stability, you have to let them know that you're so affected by them that you desire to keep them within yourself, that you want to, in part, belong to them, and have them, in part, belong to you. This jumps ahead a little, but I think perhaps part of the reason that you're okay when you're together is probably that he can see and feel this while you're together, but it's much harder when you're apart.

This is interesting! I think I consider him as part of me and all my plans always involve him somehow (even if I don't make it clear). I agree it is much harder to do long-distance, because in a way you are not an active part of each other's lives. However, I feel like my 'us' meter is always turned on, regardless of what I'm doing or how busy I am. When we are long-distance, I feel that he is 'on and off'. Sometimes he will go into what I call "Te mode" and will just get so absorbed in his work that I feel neglected. His reason is usually something like "I have to do work now. I can't sit around and be sad all the time", so in a way he is a bit better at 'compartmentalizing' his feelings in that sense?

Could be a guy thing though...

Yes, he might feel that you are so driven to do those things that you miss really good opportunities to connect. As sx, he's always looking for ways for you guys to connect and he probably feels like not only are you not looking for them, but you're also routinely, actively choosing other things over them, because he's probably presenting them to you often. I try to think of it in terms of I am a connection specialist and he is a life survival specialist and we would do best to find a balance between us, since I take care of our unit and he takes care of us as individuals. I hope you can see him like that, too, and understand that his obsession and annoyingness is in part that he is wired to optimize his relationships at all costs.

That's a very cute way to put it! I can definitely see that -- thinking back to the time before we went long-distance. Because life was a lot simpler then, I think we balanced each other out really well. That was probably the 'honeymoon stage' too, but we were students and had no life worries and all we ever had to do was write our papers. When I did not have to concentrate on 'surviving', I could devote my whole life to the relationship, and that lifestyle was fulfilling for both of us.

Now if I could only magically have a million dollars...

As for the bold, I feel your anxiety and I'm sorry, it sounds painful . On the bright side - I doubt he actually has any real problems with you wanting/needing a parachute. The issue, I suspect, is probably more about him perceiving you as consciously choosing the parachute over him, which, I'm guessing, does not feel true from your standpoint. After all, you can have your parachute and jump with him, too! (Better yet, you can make sure that crazy boy is also strapped in.)

I keep fantasizing about how when we live together I will manage all his finances and give him a fixed allowance for spending and the rest will go towards building a decent savings plan (split into three: life enjoyment, emergencies, and retirement) so that he won't have to worry about money again. /extreme sp-mode

I think he understands my need for safety. He has actually started to adopt some of my strategies, like having a back-up plan, and I know he appreciates me helping him "deal with obligations", like filling out forms and making appointments. I have to admit sometimes it is rather frustrating (and shocking) about how unprepared he is about anything, like "The deadline is tomorrow and you haven't started!?" *freaks out*

I think part of what might help is to delineate very clearly to him situations where you need to be doing sp-things and explaining that you don't love him any less for it, but you just have to do those things because that is who you are (an NFP should understand that). Even better if you can involve him in them, and he should be a very good helper, if you direct him. I love doing really mundane things like going with my boyfriend to get routine car maintenance done, because I'm really good at taking a "boring-but-necessary" situation like that and turning it into a fun opportunity for connection - last time I "kidnapped" him from the garage and took him down the street for frozen yogurt. And then he feels useful, too, which I'm guessing would be really good for him.

He always offers to help. He knows I hate driving to weird places by myself, so when I have to go meet a client he would sometimes offer to go with me and have me drop him off at a nearby coffee shop and wait for me there. I think that's the sweetest thing ever

I would imagine you're right. For someone who is always paying attention to someone else and the relationship with someone else, while they seem to be paying attention to anything else, it's really nice when the tables turn and they express that they actually do pay attention to the relationship, too. I think it's important that it's not necessarily about paying attention to him as much as the connection between you and him. I suspect that maybe this gets lost in translation... you feel like he needs you a lot, and he expresses that he's not getting what he needs... but that's because he actually wants your focus on the bond between you, not necessarily on himself. It often feels hollow to me when the focus is only on me and not on both of us, even when the intention is very sweet. I think it is very much about knowing you matter to your partner and that they will be negatively affected without your bond. It's kind of a sad thing, though, a desperate thing, when it comes out in unhealthy ways like that. It means that he's not getting the sx affirmation he needs... the hard thing for sx doms is that, if we are in relationships, we must get that affirmation from our partner, and can't provide it for ourselves, like you generally can with sp needs. I am so sorry to say this because I think it will hurt for you too, but I suspect that maybe you are also leaving him feeling like he is out of the plane with no parachute.

Wow, the bolded is kinda new to me! I never thought of it that way! I've always tried to take care of him and anticipate what he needs. Could you give an example about how to "concentrate on the bond" and not necessarily "him"? Is it about "doing things together" and not "doing things he wants"? With Fe, the two can be easily confused. I sort of have a vague impression of this being an issue, but I can't recall the details. It was about me not doing something because 'it was what I really wanted to do so it was selfish' (warped Fe reasoning) and him taking it to mean I 'did not want to do something with him'.

So, how do I focus on the "connection"?

Yeah I understand that. 9s are a special challenge. It always seems like he feels very threatened when I bring up issues. To me, they already exist, so there is no difference in bringing them up versus not. Might as well bring them up, then at least you can address them. To him, it's not a problem until you call it a problem. Maybe @PeaceBaby can help with any suggestions about how to bring conflict up with 9s? Pretty please?

Yes please

Honestly, I think you might just want to attribute it to being caught up in worry about [specific event], until you figure out how you want to address it all with him. I don't think knowing that will help him any at this point.

I think so too. Especially in his fragile state, he is very sensitive to what can be interpreted as a rejection. I think I still have my feelings to sort out about the whole thing before I can completely understand what is happening.

I think so! There's no reason you should feel bad though, we're all naturally blinded to it, and by writing this thread you're already working on it. We all accidentally hurt each other because of our difference perspectives and all we can do is work on it. The great thing about all of this is that I honestly think your problem is a fairly easy fix of affirming him in the way he naturally needs to be affirmed. I don't think you need to drop a ton of money on a visit, though I do think it would go very far to show up on his doorstep one day. His depression is another issue entirely, and it is an extra burden on you to deal with someone going through a psychological crisis.

But, like the piercings, I don't think it's the cause here, just a red herring in the mix.

I'll try to do that more (and more consciously). I'm still not sure what exactly I can do when we are not together. I really want to visit him, though, and I like to fantasize about showing up without telling him in advance

Do you think I should openly discuss some of these issues with him? Let him know we might have different psychological needs which will affect behaviors and perception? I know I will have to broad this subject in a very delicate manner -- so any tips would be appreciated!

 

[skylights]

Sorry it's taken me a while to reply! Work has been crazy lately, and my SJ and I are about to leave on a trip.

That actually sounds quite reasonable I think, to him, there are "things in the world that need to be dealt with" that have nothing to do with the relationship. I view it as "getting all the crap out of the way" so as to create a safe space where our relationship can thrive. So it's not that these things matter in themselves, but are just precautionary action to make sure life goes on smoothly.

I really like that way of phrasing it - getting the crap out of the way. I think he seems very much to operate like that too! I once read a sp/sx objectives description that sounded something like "creating a haven to nurture their personal interests", which sounds a lot like him to me. I see him as sort of a nester, building a nest of security so he can nurture a happy life in it. (Which might have a lot to do with why my little sx 6 self likes to curl up in his nest of security, after I've finished testing all his walls to make sure they're not going to break.)

Yeah, my boyfriend is (secretly) extremely jealous. I had no idea the feeling is that intense! I've always thought I was the jealous one, but I'm quite easily appeased and a few words will make me feel loved. I think he is secretly jealous of everyone that has my attention -- not just the potential of another love interest -- even people who I consider "things to get out of the way". He tries not to show it, though.

Probably! Seeing my boyfriend give other people more attention - even other things, especially if it seems like higher-quality attention - prompts me to wonder what it is that they have that I don't, and what I can change about myself to be more like that - to try to figure out what hole in him they're filling that I'm not, what hurt in him they're soothing, and to try to figure out how I can become more like that. Even my boy's love of coffee makes me a little jealous sometimes. I assume that sounds utterly ridiculous, but it's totally about seeing how something/someone pleases him so much and wanting to be able to do that, too.

If he feels like that, I imagine the easiest way to calm him would simply be to share your experience. I'm really not bothered at all if my SJ thinks a girl is cute or attractive as long as he tells me why and reassures me that I still mean more to him. Sometimes we'll walk through the mall pointing out attractive and unattractive girls and laughing at who we think is which.

This is interesting! I think I consider him as part of me and all my plans always involve him somehow (even if I don't make it clear). I agree it is much harder to do long-distance, because in a way you are not an active part of each other's lives. However, I feel like my 'us' meter is always turned on, regardless of what I'm doing or how busy I am. When we are long-distance, I feel that he is 'on and off'. Sometimes he will go into what I call "Te mode" and will just get so absorbed in his work that I feel neglected. His reason is usually something like "I have to do work now. I can't sit around and be sad all the time", so in a way he is a bit better at 'compartmentalizing' his feelings in that sense?

Tell him the bolded I'm not surprised about hot-and-cold. I'd actually started writing something about that in my very first post to you and ditched it because it was tangential, but now here it is! Sx dominance seems to strongly relate to "immersion" - refer to "entranced" in my profile and the very atmospheric feel of my avatar. It's most comfortable for me to be surrounded by and enveloped by something, very lost in it, and I've heard the same from several other sx-firsts. It's a preference as well as a tendency, and especially as an NFP I think it's very easy to get immersed in something and not realize how long one's been under, or how far down one has gone. I think also yes, Te is a good compartmentalizing function in that doing productive logical work helps escape feelings, so naturally he would probably be less connected during that time (and again, NFP Te is kind of on the shitty side - at least for me Te in and of itself is very on/off). He is also an introvert - I don't know if that has an impact here, but I'm guessing most introverts are more productive when solitary and totally focused in their minds? If you let him know that you feel neglected during his work sometimes I imagine he would make a huge effort to make up for that. He also might be trying to prove to you that he can be unavailable too, if he feels a little hurt that he's always available while you have things to do and places to be.

Could be a guy thing though...

That too. Guys supposedly have more one-track minds and are more solitary workers.

That's a very cute way to put it! I can definitely see that -- thinking back to the time before we went long-distance. Because life was a lot simpler then, I think we balanced each other out really well. That was probably the 'honeymoon stage' too, but we were students and had no life worries and all we ever had to do was write our papers. When I did not have to concentrate on 'surviving', I could devote my whole life to the relationship, and that lifestyle was fulfilling for both of us.

Now if I could only magically have a million dollars...

And just think how hard it is for both of you, with you having to do all your surviving and with him probably desperately trying to pull all the strings he can to monitor how everything in the relationship is and he really just can't reach far enough to see, so he has to work on best-guesses - like that you don't do anything for him because you're not seeming to value/acknowledge/respect his needs as much as yours.

I keep fantasizing about how when we live together I will manage all his finances and give him a fixed allowance for spending and the rest will go towards building a decent savings plan (split into three: life enjoyment, emergencies, and retirement) so that he won't have to worry about money again. /extreme sp-mode

Aww that's adorable. You should tell him that. I'd love if someone did that for me!

I think he understands my need for safety. He has actually started to adopt some of my strategies, like having a back-up plan, and I know he appreciates me helping him "deal with obligations", like filling out forms and making appointments. I have to admit sometimes it is rather frustrating (and shocking) about how unprepared he is about anything, like "The deadline is tomorrow and you haven't started!?" *freaks out*

It's funny for us, from the other side, to see you guys not realizing that, generally, even if you mess up a bit, life goes on. Deadline's tomorrow and you haven't started... eh. You'll probably still finish it. If you don't, you can probably turn it in late. If you can't, it probably won't utterly destroy your life. You probably won't even remember the incident in a year. Things are more bendy than they seem... people try to create structure to organize chaos, but structures are often a bit facade-like, and the truth is that the cogs will keep turning even without the "required" elements. To us it feels a little bit like you're making these things more important than they actually are, seeing as the rest of us are still alive. But yes, I love having my sp-dom's and his strategies around to help me. I think he balances me out!

He always offers to help. He knows I hate driving to weird places by myself, so when I have to go meet a client he would sometimes offer to go with me and have me drop him off at a nearby coffee shop and wait for me there. I think that's the sweetest thing ever

Aww. Probably makes him very happy to do so! That's something useful too - we really don't mind doing that kind of stuff. Taking him up on offers of his company or his help or his resources or whatever he offers probably makes him really happy. I know my sp-dom has a VERY strong independent, self-sufficient streak, but I really like when he accepts my help openly (rarely), or at least grudgingly accepts it (much more often).

Wow, the bolded is kinda new to me! I never thought of it that way! I've always tried to take care of him and anticipate what he needs. Could you give an example about how to "concentrate on the bond" and not necessarily "him"? Is it about "doing things together" and not "doing things he wants"? With Fe, the two can be easily confused. I sort of have a vague impression of this being an issue, but I can't recall the details. It was about me not doing something because 'it was what I really wanted to do so it was selfish' (warped Fe reasoning) and him taking it to mean I 'did not want to do something with him'.

Bold, bingo. I actually struggled a lot with this with my ESFJ (I believe 2w1 sp/so) Mom growing up. This might not be such a good long-distance example, but let's say he's feeling down because he's sick, since that's a pretty simple one. Assuming you're physically together, one line of reasoning would say go out and buy him tissues, medicine, soup; give him quiet time alone to rest; let him contact you if he wants you. On one hand, that sounds really sweet, and like you're doing a lot for him. On the other hand, that sounds like you'll be spending a lot of time doing anything but being with him and being emotionally supportive, which is probably what he really needs. One thing about Te in NFPs is that you're pretty well assured that if you really want something, you can do it yourself, so he's probably pretty capable of getting tissues if he really needs them - however, what he's not capable of providing himself with is love and support, someone to cuddle on the couch with him and tell him he's still cute even when his nose is cherry-red. It's stuff like that, basically doing things for him instead of with him. Always choose with.

So, how do I focus on the "connection"?

Well, you know how you say you try to anticipate his needs? It's like that. Sx doms anticipate opportunities for togetherness, bonding and intimacy. Personally, by virtue of parenting (NT dad) or personality (sx 6 with 3 fix), I have a major issue with competency; I can't stand others assuming I can't do things for myself. I've had to learn to let go of that to a certain extent in my relationship, and to just let him take care of my sp needs when he wants to, because it's so much better for both of us. He says, your wipers are making an awful noise. When was the last time you had them replaced? (Never?) Let me get you some new windshield wipers. Normally I would protest, but I'm learning to just let go and let him help me take care of that. That sounds easy, but what it does entail is de-prioritizing some of my sx impulses to allow us to focus on the sp-thing. Similarly, I think you can try to let go of some of your sp impulses to allow you guys to focus on the sx-thing. And he will cue you, you just have to be listening and open to it. If he says, maybe we spend tonight video chatting, even if you have ____ to do, see if maybe you could let it go.

I also just re-read your OP, and I have one more thought, which is that maybe sometimes he needs (unbeknownst to him) less listening and more redirecting. I'm sure this is harder long-distance, but maybe you could try to find some ways to redirect him when he starts going down that path. I suspect as a 4 you are much more comfortable in that place than him as a 9 and I'm not really surprised he emotionally shuts down. I assume you have more of a gift for navigating the pain than he does. Especially with him being sx I wonder if he wouldn't follow your direction into clearer emotional waters. And like you have done, you can try to cut your emotional self off from the environment when he is like that. Still, I can't think it's more preferable for him to fill himself up with negativity than to fill himself up with you. Maybe you can try to help him fill himself up with you again.

I think so too. Especially in his fragile state, he is very sensitive to what can be interpreted as a rejection. I think I still have my feelings to sort out about the whole thing before I can completely understand what is happening.

Yeah, absolutely.

I'll try to do that more (and more consciously). I'm still not sure what exactly I can do when we are not together. I really want to visit him, though, and I like to fantasize about showing up without telling him in advance

D'aw. Well, I think mostly checking in with him often and reminding him that he's of utmost importance to you. Also discussing things very deeply with him - anytime anything seems to be hurting him, just crack it open and talk about it. Each of his problems on that list is a valuable talking point - why don't you want to move? What ties you down to the place? What do you love about it? What places make him feel a similar way? Can you talk about ways to compromise, such as you loving this city but maybe you could move to a different area in it that's more appealing to him? I can understand how frustrated he might feel to fly a very long distance and then have to spend half the day waiting for you to get out of work just to accomplish the whole reason for his trip. Could you talk about ways to make his visits more satisfying, such as reducing the amount of time he visits but increasing the amount of days you take off? Can you make up an even better beach trip, as a spur-of-the-moment surprise (I bet you that all he needs is a few days' notice. Sx doms are brilliant at creating time for the people/things we're passionate about.) Ask him the reasoning behind the piercing. Even if you don't agree to it, maybe you could learn the core of his request and bend a little. Maybe you could get a removable ring there, for instance.

Do you think I should openly discuss some of these issues with him? Let him know we might have different psychological needs which will affect behaviors and perception? I know I will have to broad this subject in a very delicate manner -- so any tips would be appreciated!

Yes. I don't know how Enneagram 9 plays in, but NFP and sx should be very open to talking about deep issues like this, and how to create an ideal relationship between you.