User Tag List

First 123 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 24

  1. #11
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    yupp
    Posts
    29,782

    Default

    i don't understand the piercing thing, why does it matter to the INFP so much?
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  2. #12
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,490

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    i don't understand the piercing thing, why does it matter to the INFP so much?
    It's a love test.

  3. #13
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    I don't have a lot to say that hasn't already been said better, but I wanted you to know I care by posting something here.

    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    But I'm always there for him emotionally, especially in the last three years where he is battling depression and stress. I always listen, and I always try to help him plan. He discusses his work with me and I really listen and think about it and give feedback. In the last three weeks or so we talked about literally nothing but his work. I think I'm being supportive and understanding.

    I know he usually lashes out and says hurtful things when he is under stress. He can get into a very dark mood where he proclaims that he hates everything and the world hates him. When he is stressed he is emotionally closed off and I can forget trying to talk to him about anything. Even when I have problems, he isn't even willing to listen. Then afterwards sometimes he will feel sorry. He wil apologize. He does try. It's just that when he is stressed out he is so overwhelmed by negative emotions and thoughts there is no room for anything and anyone.
    I'm not sure on this point, but when I was with my INFP guy, the fact he would allow himself to show negative emotion to me was a sign of vulnerability on his part. his normal mode is to always be kind and considerate. I found this with another INFP male friend of mine too; again, if he let you into his "dangerous" emotions, then it was actually a sign of deeper intimacy. Although both of them usually too did apologize and feel bad afterwards... but to me, I felt like I was privileged in a sense.

    Then tonight I had a thought. I realized something that should be very obvious: I don't need to feel hurt. I know I love him and that's all I need to know. Because of this I should let go of all expectations. My love is mine to give and I will give it freely. I don't expect anything in return. I don't expect him to appreciate it. I don't expect him to treat me nicely. I can choose not to be hurt.
    I thought this was very insightful on your part. And yes, the reality is that you can step back any time, and that your choice to give love is not based on how he treats you. You are not trapped, you are free. I find the idea very liberating.

    Back in my marriage, I actually reached that point as well. I remember being so miserable all the time... and not just because of my identity complications but because I wasn't getting what I wanted in order to feel close to my spouse in the way I wanted to be, and realizing it would never happen. And one day I decided I had had enough and planned to leave... and then suddenly I realized that I didn't want to throw everything away. It was a shift similar to yours. I realized I could leave any time I wanted, but there were things about the relationship I valued, so I could make an active choice to stay and commit regardless of what I wasn't getting if I valued those other things enough. And that was okay. I wasn't a victim or trapped or overburdened, I was choosing to be where I was.

    It really made a difference in my outlook. While the relationship ultimately failed for other reasons, that change in me marked a huge turning point in how I approached the relationship.

    And suddenly, all the pain was gone. I actually felt happy, and light, and free. We talked again for a little bit and today he avoided the 'conflict' topics. He still said I don't do things for him, and when I asked if he could tell me why he felt that way, he said he didn't know. Then he didn't want to talk anymore. Usually I would be hurt by this, but not now. I even went as far as thinking how I would feel if he did not want the relationship anymore and I imagined us going our separate ways. It made me feel a little wistful, but there was no real pain.
    I know you've expressed concern about whether this lack of pain comes from unhealthy detachment or positive reframing. I'm inclined, based on the content of your typical posts, to think the latter. It just sounds like you were putting so much pressure on yourself to make him happy and do everything right, but now you have been liberated. Because you aren't demanding anything from him, you don't need to feel threatened when he doesn't give it to you or when he criticizes you; you can just take it in stride. you are balanced inside now, and not dependent on him for stability. It's clear that you still care, but that your life doesn't depend on making him happy.

    I think the same goes for this whole "I do nothing for him" issue. He secretly wants me to 'love him enough that I am willing to give up everything -- my life, my family, my job -- to be with him'. In reality, he is never going to make me do it, but he will feel satisfied that he is that important to me. The fact that I keep "not doing things" for him, although they are decisions that make sense logically, makes him feel unloved. I totally understand this. I can really sympathize with the need for intense connection. I think he is an sx-dom, and this is the sx's desire for the ultimate union.
    Well, I'm not sure this kind of thing is purely SX. Maybe it's SX for INFPs, or for some individuals. I would never have asked you to pierce your ears, even if I would really want you to, because to me that would violate your identity; and I wouldn't take it as you shutting me out of intimacy or not loving me enough. I guess I look for other things to satisfy the yearning for connection.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #14
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    11,134

    Default

    You've gotten a lot of good advice. As INFJs, I think one of our strengths is that we can see situations from multiple perspectives and put ourselves in other people's shoes. The downside of that is that we can become overaccommodating because we have a lot invested in the relationship and think that somehow we can make things work if we just do the right thing and expend superhuman amounts of effort. The fact is, if he isn't happy and he's been unhappy for long periods of time already (eg not just a passing thing that's a matter of weeks or months that he needs support through), you can't make him happy, even if you did everything he wanted you to. Maybe he needs to also start expanding his support system to include more people than you, so that your actions do not carry the same kind of import. It's a very big load for one person to carry. After years of observation in my family, I've concluded that no one can truly fill that kind of unhappiness void but the person themselves. Until then, the help and love they receive just seems to run off without being absorbed. I think you are moving in a healthier direction where you at least are not dependent on his response to decide yours.

    It sounds to me that you are more than pulling your weight in the relationship. An imbalance of power will not make for a healthy relationship in the longterm. So, as Usehername said, I guess you'll have to determine for yourself which of the three scenarios are most likely. I've been in that position before and I think it was only seeing some similar behaviours from my sister's spouse that gave me pause. I think I also discredited my own feelings as being over-sensitive, until getting a wider/closer circle of friends and realizing that they were seeing the same things that I was.

    It's not all bad that you two live in different places so that you can maintain perspective and still have other people in your life. My guess is that if he lived close by, he would be a little threatened by anyone and anything that matter to you because he would see them as competition. No one person can provide everything a person needs, even if they are exceptionally giving. If you were to be together longterm and have a family, does it appear to you that he at some point would have the margin of resources (emotional and otherwise) needed to care for more than himself?

    If you give up more and more to be with him, you will be less and less likely to consider the possibility that the relationship may not be workable right now, even if he possesses qualities that are wonderful. I'm not saying that you should break up with him. Rather, that in the process of being understanding and trying to help him, it's possible to lose yourself and have nothing left to give without even realizing it while it's happening. The way you are thinking of things right now will help a lot with that. As an impartial observer (realizing I don't know him and haven't seen you interact), I'd just like to remind you that you are just as deserving of care as he is. Don't forget that in the process!

  5. #15
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    2,632

    Default

    @skylights Thank you so much for your insight on the issue. After rereading and mulling things over, I think I'm starting to understand the situation now from a whole new perspective.

    IRT your question #2, regardless of personal psychological healths of both of you, between this and the postcard situation, I think you hit a HUGE thing here, maybe the center issue in all of this. I gleaned it too, from reading. I figured you were sp-dom before finding it in your profile, it just comes across in the way you describe your life. He's sx and you're sp and he feels how you make sure you're safe first and then make sure he is. As sx-dom, he's always going to make sure you're safe first and then make sure he is. So regardless of whatever happens after that first moment, he's going to keep feeling your lack of willingness to abandon yourself for him, and compare that to his willingness to abandon himself completely to you, and keep feeling like you don't do anything for him. I think you should bring this up to him and see if he feels that way.
    I think it can very well be the center issue of all the conflicts in our relationship. I know that deep down I really need a sense of stability. What that is is pretty vague, but at least I need to have an idea where I am going so I can take steps to plan how to realistically achieve it, which will make me feel safe and secure. This is something he is currently unable to give. He doesn't know what he wants in the future, where he wants to be, what he wants to do. If he says "After the PhD I'm going to find a job at XYZ and you can think about whether you can come live with me", that will be different. I can actually start to look at my options. Right now all I get is "I don't know. I'm stressed. I have no future. I don't want to think about it."

    For him, however, maybe he just needs that confirmation that I will be with him no matter what. Maybe this is why he feels like I don't give him enough love, but when we argue he cannot tell why exactly he is unhappy and what I am doing wrong. Recently he has finally come up with an explanation that his feelings are irrational, but maybe it all stemmed from this need for the ultimate union that is simply beyond reason. Like the postcard incident -- he wanted reassurance from me that he was the most important thing, so if I had tried to reason with him how the postcard did not mean anything to me but I wanted to keep it because it was sent to me by my friend, who was really a friend and he should not feel jealous, the situation would have become a huge deal and not just a 2-second exchange.

    In a way it is a paradox, made worse by real life issues. I feel like he is asking me to jump out a plane without a parachute, and he feels that my firm "No" to that means I don't love him. He might be feeling like I am too focused on the destination than the journey, in a sense that his company alone is not good enough and I need to know where we are going too. All this is made even more complicated by his depression, the long-distance, different cultural expectations.

    I'm an sx-dom and I've always been drawn to non-sx-doms - sp-doms especially - and I do deeply understand this feeling of not-fair-ness, but I also don't think I want to be with an sx-dom... I've never been particularly drawn to them. I like my mate being very grounded. I think maybe you could make it clear to him that your way of providing for him is in part being stable in part for him, and that those sp-needs are just part and parcel to who you are. I get frustrated sometimes when my partner needs to attend to some personal matter or other before he can really attend to things together, but that independence and self-sufficiency is also extremely attractive to me, and he always includes me when calculating those personal matters. One of the other things that makes me love his sp-dom-ness is that by virtue of being sp, he helps me develop my own person. Sx-doms have the tendency to meld completely into something else, and that's wonderful to some extent, that's what makes us feel alive, but we can get lost down there, too, and surrender our will completely, and suddenly as that something else changes, find ourselves head over heels in something we don't support. I've had it happen. It's horrible. So... maybe you could talk to him about some of the benefits of your orientation, too. Try to get him to understand that it's not about the depth of your feeling for him; it's who you are and it can be really good for him. But you can also, via constant communication and acknowledgment, help him feel more included in your life, too. I love talks about how my partner and I balance each other. I think it's wonderful and fascinating. Maybe he would enjoy talking about that with you.
    This is how I feel exactly! Why I need stability so much is because he is unable to provide me any, so I need to be sure that in the worst case scenario, I will be able to provide that for both of us.

    I don't know but I feel like he secretly likes it when I am irrational, like when I give him a hard time because "We don't talk enough" and he has to be the one to explain that he has work to do, or when I get jealous of him when he spends time with someone else. He gets annoyed sometimes when I act like that, but I can't help but feel that deep down it makes him feel like I love him. It is like knowing that you matter to your partner and that they will be deeply hurt if you leave them. This is not totally healthy, but I completely understand.

    Also, keep in mind that NFP temper tantrums usually involve poor Te invokage. So his list is probably more about the "theme" than about the individual points.
    That's a good point!

    I think deciding whether or not you can have a balanced relationship with him is a major point. My partner is decidedly more emotionally stable than myself, but I think my ability to completely surround him in positive affirmation and love and protection helps make up for that. Does your INFP have enough strengths to be able to heal you as much as hurt you...?
    I think most of our problems come out when we are not physically together. When we are together, I don't know if it's because we are so happy we just gloss over everything or if we communicate better, but we rarely have disagreements. He is usually very sensitive and very caring. Most of this 'lashing out' of his happens when he is under stress, which unfortunately is the whole time we are not together.

    He is a 9w1, and he avoids thinking about problems most of the time, so that doesn't help. I have tried to bring up deep, underlying issues, and it works when we are together in the same room and he feels relax enough to think about them. When we are apart, however, he just avoids difficult issues altogether and will just rather do things to distract himself from the negative feelings.

    I think he is going to view my 'freedom' as more evidence that I don't love him that much. Last night he seemed a bit bothered that I did not insist on having a long conversation or get sad when he said he could not talk because he was in the library. Currently I'm still analyzing my state of mind and I don't get it 100%, and I have no idea how I'm going to explain it to him.

    Now I'm really starting to feel bad for him, though. Again, I can't help but feel like I'm not taking care of him well enough and that perhaps if I indulged him only a little bit more, he will feel loved


    @Qlip Thank you so much for sharing I'm really sorry to hear what happened. Reading your post made a lot of things clearer for me. My boyfriend does feel powerless in the relationship because of the situation and this could be contributing to everything else @skylights has mentioned. He keeps asking why he doesn't get to decide anything in the relationship, like why he cannot get me to come visit him (we agreed it would make more sense financially for him to visit), or why our hang out time is up to me (meaning my work schedule). We both know the rational answer for all that and when we really discuss it he admits he is being unreasonable. I think I understand more now why he would feel that way.

    I feel like he wants to know that if he ever gives me the ultimatum I will choose him. By being self-sufficient, I am in a way denying him that comfort. It sounds messed up, but I totally understand it.

    I just wonder if there is anything I can do to make him feel reassured. If a short visit will make him feel a lot better, of course I will do it, even if it means quite a significant amount of money for only a week together.

    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    i don't understand the piercing thing, why does it matter to the INFP so much?
    I don't think it's exactly about the piercings. For him, I think, it's another "No" in his book of the things I won't do.
    4w5 sp/sx EII

  6. #16
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default



    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    Recently my INFP said that that I never do anything for him, during a disagreement. He had been pestering me to get piercings, and I told him that I really did not want to get them. I don't even have my ears pierced! He then started lashing out and said I never did things for him, and proceeded to listing out the things he wanted but I never did for him.
    He's trying to attach Te reasons to Fi things to try to be understood. It can have a tendency to not "come out right" and seem illogical though. In the throes of a complex emotional issue, and especially when INFP's are young, it can be a real challenge to attach words to those inner feelings and have them make sense in the outside world. It's why this has a smack of irrationality to it as well. You're right in understanding that this isn't really about those specific "things" it's more about what they represent as a theme.

    The things include:
    - Me not wanting to move Long story short: I told him even before we got into a relationship that I was not willing to relocate and he should really think about it whether he wanted a relationship that was bound to become long-distance soon -- he jumped into it without thinking, saying he would move to be with me. To be honest, if he finds a job somewhere else in the world I will seriously consider doing some freelance work so I will be able to be with him at least for a certain amount of time in a year. I'm not willing to totally move away, but I will definitely try to 'make things work'.
    - During his visit, I never take days off work to be with him I have a full time job, and on most days I did leave work a couple of hours early to avoid traffic. I took a few full days off, but a lot of half-days. I only have one full day off each week, and that day is always his, from the moment we wake up until bedtime.
    - Beach trip that never happened This is partly my fault, as I mentioned I was working on one as his birthday gift. During the last few weeks of his visit, however, lots of things happened. His landlord decided to get a new tenant and he had to look for a new place, loan problems, etc., and we were both stressed trying to handle all the things that needed to be done.
    - He is always the one visiting It's true. But I have a job, and being a PhD student he has months-long summer holidays, so it is more sensible for him to come visit. He pays for the flights, and I pay for his rent when he is here, which come out to about the same amount of money, which equals my 3-4 months' savings.
    - I won't get my body pierced for him It's true. I don't want piercings. I really don't want them. I don't think this is really relevant, though. It was just a breaking point for deeper issues.
    The theme here is him feeling like he's the one doing the majority of the "bending". Granted, you bend a great deal for him too, but overall he's seeing and sensing that (unlike him) you have a core of things that you will not do. He likely does not feel as grounded and certain as that, and indeed, as INFP's we are just not wired as rigidly, even though we have value standards. As a 9, he's also bendier too - he's wired to merge and accommodate and feels a certain satisfaction in being this way, whilst at the same time resisting a loss of his own self in the middle of that. It can be a difficult balancing act there. Sometimes it's hard feeling like you're in that role the majority of the time, even if that's not a fully accurate interpretation. Especially when it revolves around the large life-choices, rather than smaller, more incidental topics (like the piercings ... he pushes that out there as evidence that you won't bend even on the "small" things either. Irrational yes, and don't you dare get a piercing for him kk?)

    But I'm always there for him emotionally, especially in the last three years where he is battling depression and stress. I always listen, and I always try to help him plan. He discusses his work with me and I really listen and think about it and give feedback. In the last three weeks or so we talked about literally nothing but his work. I think I'm being supportive and understanding.
    No doubt you are. You sound like you are trying very hard to be a wonderful partner.

    I know he usually lashes out and says hurtful things when he is under stress. He can get into a very dark mood where he proclaims that he hates everything and the world hates him. When he is stressed he is emotionally closed off and I can forget trying to talk to him about anything. Even when I have problems, he isn't even willing to listen. Then afterwards sometimes he will feel sorry. He wil apologize. He does try. It's just that when he is stressed out he is so overwhelmed by negative emotions and thoughts there is no room for anything and anyone.
    This sounds like immature Fi. Almost like an ESTJ's Fi. In order to help mature it, he needs to get that Ne involved in the picture of his own problem-solving rather than linger in the throes of dark Fi and spill it out onto other people. And other people can't solve this for him. It's purely an internal process of making a conscious choice to get one's head out of one's butt and out into the real world.

    Then tonight I had a thought. I realized something that should be very obvious: I don't need to feel hurt. I know I love him and that's all I need to know. Because of this I should let go of all expectations. My love is mine to give and I will give it freely. I don't expect anything in return. I don't expect him to appreciate it. I don't expect him to treat me nicely. I can choose not to be hurt.
    This is actually very mature and wise, a stepping stone to understanding what love is. Love is something you do. It's a choice. However, you do have a right to be treated nicely and to be appreciated as a partner in a relationship. Otherwise, you are casting your pearls before swine.

    Am I 'growing' in my love or did I just 'unconsciously extract myself from caring too much because it's too hard'? I'm sure I want to be with him, but I feel like it's not entirely up to me and I can't make things happen. I'm doing my best to work towards a future (although it feels a bit one-sided), but if it doesn't work out then there is nothing I can do about it. I am trying my best and if he has a better idea about how things can be, I'm all ears. In a way, I feel like I'm freeing myself from responsibility, and it feels great. The fact that it feels great is making me question myself if I really feel that way or is it something I made up to fool myself to mask over the hurt.
    I see it as a growth point. It's positive.


    Towards the near future: You are close to the ultimatum. You need to lay it all out plain again, that you will not move, and he will need to decide if those are terms he can live with. Neither of you can avoid this question forever. You never hid this from him so he cannot rebel against it now, no matter how much he does not like it. He made his choice to pursue you regardless and HE must own that. Soon you both will have to face this because his resentment is growing and bursting out in irrational ways.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #17
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    2,632

    Default

    Thank you for your input @Jennifer and @fidelia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm not sure on this point, but when I was with my INFP guy, the fact he would allow himself to show negative emotion to me was a sign of vulnerability on his part. his normal mode is to always be kind and considerate. I found this with another INFP male friend of mine too; again, if he let you into his "dangerous" emotions, then it was actually a sign of deeper intimacy. Although both of them usually too did apologize and feel bad afterwards... but to me, I felt like I was privileged in a sense.
    That's an interesting point of view! One weird thing about our relationship is that I have never seen my boyfriend interact much with other people at all. All the time we were together (before the long-distance thing), the only people around were the other flatmates, who were all 'friends' any way, and even so we rarely ever hung out with them! Basically it was pretty much one-on-one from the very beginning. Maybe this is why I have always felt our relationship is so intensely private. When we hang out with other people (mainly my friends and family), he has a 'public persona' that is amazingly easy-going and agreeable that I sometimes almost can't recognize. With his recent depression, sometimes I can't help but think "Wow, why isn't he this easy-going when he's alone with me!"

    I thought this was very insightful on your part. And yes, the reality is that you can step back any time, and that your choice to give love is not based on how he treats you. You are not trapped, you are free. I find the idea very liberating.

    Back in my marriage, I actually reached that point as well. I remember being so miserable all the time... and not just because of my identity complications but because I wasn't getting what I wanted in order to feel close to my spouse in the way I wanted to be, and realizing it would never happen. And one day I decided I had had enough and planned to leave... and then suddenly I realized that I didn't want to throw everything away. It was a shift similar to yours. I realized I could leave any time I wanted, but there were things about the relationship I valued, so I could make an active choice to stay and commit regardless of what I wasn't getting if I valued those other things enough. And that was okay. I wasn't a victim or trapped or overburdened, I was choosing to be where I was.

    It really made a difference in my outlook. While the relationship ultimately failed for other reasons, that change in me marked a huge turning point in how I approached the relationship.

    I know you've expressed concern about whether this lack of pain comes from unhealthy detachment or positive reframing. I'm inclined, based on the content of your typical posts, to think the latter. It just sounds like you were putting so much pressure on yourself to make him happy and do everything right, but now you have been liberated. Because you aren't demanding anything from him, you don't need to feel threatened when he doesn't give it to you or when he criticizes you; you can just take it in stride. you are balanced inside now, and not dependent on him for stability. It's clear that you still care, but that your life doesn't depend on making him happy.
    Thanks for sharing! I guess it's these 'click' moments that are truly life-changing. I really hope it is the latter, though. After we fought he apologized for "being mean", but we never addressed the issue properly again. We haven't talked much these past couple of days, and I was trying to explain to him what I just discovered -- that I want to talk to him but don't need to talk -- which he might have interpreted as evidence that I don't care about him anymore. I really wish we could discuss it properly.

    Today I was out with the family and I felt that I was noticing a lot of beautiful little things along the way, like the pattern of the drizzle on the slightly-flooded street, and the wet and refreshing smell in the air. I realized I had not felt like this in a long while. It was like I was so obsessed with making the relationship work that I totally forgot who I was or what I was doing. Suddenly I felt so alive and glad to be alive, so I guess it's a good thing.

    Well, I'm not sure this kind of thing is purely SX. Maybe it's SX for INFPs, or for some individuals. I would never have asked you to pierce your ears, even if I would really want you to, because to me that would violate your identity; and I wouldn't take it as you shutting me out of intimacy or not loving me enough. I guess I look for other things to satisfy the yearning for connection.
    Maybe it's not about the piercings. I think he definitely has some abandonment issues and needs a lot of reaffirmation. Under stress, it can sometimes get a bit ugly :sigh:


    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    You've gotten a lot of good advice. As INFJs, I think one of our strengths is that we can see situations from multiple perspectives and put ourselves in other people's shoes. The downside of that is that we can become overaccommodating because we have a lot invested in the relationship and think that somehow we can make things work if we just do the right thing and expend superhuman amounts of effort. The fact is, if he isn't happy and he's been unhappy for long periods of time already (eg not just a passing thing that's a matter of weeks or months that he needs support through), you can't make him happy, even if you did everything he wanted you to. Maybe he needs to also start expanding his support system to include more people than you, so that your actions do not carry the same kind of import. It's a very big load for one person to carry. After years of observation in my family, I've concluded that no one can truly fill that kind of unhappiness void but the person themselves. Until then, the help and love they receive just seems to run off without being absorbed. I think you are moving in a healthier direction where you at least are not dependent on his response to decide yours.

    It sounds to me that you are more than pulling your weight in the relationship. An imbalance of power will not make for a healthy relationship in the longterm. So, as Usehername said, I guess you'll have to determine for yourself which of the three scenarios are most likely. I've been in that position before and I think it was only seeing some similar behaviours from my sister's spouse that gave me pause. I think I also discredited my own feelings as being over-sensitive, until getting a wider/closer circle of friends and realizing that they were seeing the same things that I was.

    It's not all bad that you two live in different places so that you can maintain perspective and still have other people in your life. My guess is that if he lived close by, he would be a little threatened by anyone and anything that matter to you because he would see them as competition. No one person can provide everything a person needs, even if they are exceptionally giving. If you were to be together longterm and have a family, does it appear to you that he at some point would have the margin of resources (emotional and otherwise) needed to care for more than himself?

    If you give up more and more to be with him, you will be less and less likely to consider the possibility that the relationship may not be workable right now, even if he possesses qualities that are wonderful. I'm not saying that you should break up with him. Rather, that in the process of being understanding and trying to help him, it's possible to lose yourself and have nothing left to give without even realizing it while it's happening. The way you are thinking of things right now will help a lot with that. As an impartial observer (realizing I don't know him and haven't seen you interact), I'd just like to remind you that you are just as deserving of care as he is. Don't forget that in the process!
    Yes, I've come to realize now that I cannot fix his problems for him. It is something a little scary. I have always felt responsible for everything, and when something does not work I feel like it is because I am not doing my best. I can certainly identify with all you said!

    I think if we were not forced to go long-distance a lot of these issues would not have surfaced. When we are together, my constant presence is usually *just* enough to get him by. However, deep down he can still be building resentment. It might be better that we are apart right now and the issues are made known. I feel like at the moment he doesn't know himself very well, and I try to talk to him and reflect what I see back to him, which sometimes takes him by total surprise. For example, he never realized how much his worldview and behaviors were affected by his mood and always thought of himself as a rational thinker. When I pointed it out to him it was the first time that self-image was challenged and I could tell he was genuinely surprised!

    As for the bolded, yes, he is very capable of being caring for others. When he feels good about life, he is an amazing person, very considerate, very nurturing, very accepting. But before we can get there, I think he still has to do a lot of internal work and reach a point where he really understands what he is doing.

    I can really feel for him, and I think when he does things that hurt me, it is done out of the lack of a clear sense of his own self and needs. Sometimes there are unconscious childish games involved, like keeping scores, which tend to make the issues worse and create more hurt feelings on both sides. I think with my new approach to the relationship, hopefully I will be better at not getting trapped in these unhealthy loops.
    4w5 sp/sx EII

  8. #18
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    12,443

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    Recently my INFP said that that I never do anything for him, during a disagreement. He had been pestering me to get piercings, and I told him that I really did not want to get them. I don't even have my ears pierced! He then started lashing out and said I never did things for him, and proceeded to listing out the things he wanted but I never did for him.
    No woman should have to deal with that kind of nonsense.

  9. #19
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    @skylights Thank you so much for your insight on the issue. After rereading and mulling things over, I think I'm starting to understand the situation now from a whole new perspective.
    You're welcome, and I actually really appreciate reading about your feelings as an sp-dom, because it gives me insight into the challenges in my own relationship, too. Even just today, my boyfriend and I drove separately to our mutual workplace, at the same time of morning, for the same shift, and I felt frustrated/rejected/left behind - but he needs to drive himself to feel secure, because he wants to be sure he gets there on time and can leave if and when he needs or wants to. It's so sp-dom, lol. I've just had to accept that as one of his needs and try to move past it. The upside is I can sing really loud to ridiculous music in my car without him knowing... ...


    I think it can very well be the center issue of all the conflicts in our relationship. I know that deep down I really need a sense of stability. What that is is pretty vague, but at least I need to have an idea where I am going so I can take steps to plan how to realistically achieve it, which will make me feel safe and secure. This is something he is currently unable to give. He doesn't know what he wants in the future, where he wants to be, what he wants to do. If he says "After the PhD I'm going to find a job at XYZ and you can think about whether you can come live with me", that will be different. I can actually start to look at my options. Right now all I get is "I don't know. I'm stressed. I have no future. I don't want to think about it."

    For him, however, maybe he just needs that confirmation that I will be with him no matter what. Maybe this is why he feels like I don't give him enough love, but when we argue he cannot tell why exactly he is unhappy and what I am doing wrong. Recently he has finally come up with an explanation that his feelings are irrational, but maybe it all stemmed from this need for the ultimate union that is simply beyond reason. Like the postcard incident -- he wanted reassurance from me that he was the most important thing, so if I had tried to reason with him how the postcard did not mean anything to me but I wanted to keep it because it was sent to me by my friend, who was really a friend and he should not feel jealous, the situation would have become a huge deal and not just a 2-second exchange.
    I will admit that I have a hard time with jealousy in situations like that, too. I have always been very adamant about not being "that jealous bitch", but the constant nagging insecurity feelings from the thought that your partner might have another love interest are horrible, at least to me, and I'm guessing for many sx-doms. They eat away at me and completely subsume my emotional state. It's like the entire earth has been pulled out from under you... it's actually kind of funny how it's similar to sp concerns, when we think about it in terms of needing to be sure that everything is okay regarding this realm of life before we can attend to other things.

    In regards to the bolded, since I only really have myself as reference, I'm trying to figure out what it is exactly that I seek from my partner to feel stable in the sx-realm, because it's along those lines but I think I would phrase it differently... it's a different kind of mindframe, so to speak. I don't want him to sacrifice his independence nor his self-sufficiency - that would be very disappointing, actually - but I do want to make sure that he considers myself to be part of him. As long as that is true, then I don't have any major fears about our relationship, because being part of him automatically ensures that he will take care of me. I think maybe that melding of identities is very much the purpose of the sx drive, in that one ensures that they will be taken care of by having someone else or something else in part "become" them (and equally, we desire to take care of someone / something else by allowing them to "become" us). I fully understand that my partner is not going to devote himself to me completely, and I'm glad for that, I don't want him to give in to me completely, but I do want to be a part of him. I think to give an sx-dom stability, you have to let them know that you're so affected by them that you desire to keep them within yourself, that you want to, in part, belong to them, and have them, in part, belong to you. This jumps ahead a little, but I think perhaps part of the reason that you're okay when you're together is probably that he can see and feel this while you're together, but it's much harder when you're apart.

    As a sidenote, I think being with a 9 can be particularly challenging in terms of sorting out relationship issues because it's almost like their subconscious protects them from strife by blinding them to the causes of their feelings. My boyfriend has this issue too where he will not always know why (and being a hyper-analytical 6 this is like HOW IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE, I'm sure you feel similarly as an introspective 4 / analytical w5!), but he will feel very strongly about something.

    In a way it is a paradox, made worse by real life issues. I feel like he is asking me to jump out a plane without a parachute, and he feels that my firm "No" to that means I don't love him. He might be feeling like I am too focused on the destination than the journey, in a sense that his company alone is not good enough and I need to know where we are going too. All this is made even more complicated by his depression, the long-distance, different cultural expectations.
    Yes, he might feel that you are so driven to do those things that you miss really good opportunities to connect. As sx, he's always looking for ways for you guys to connect and he probably feels like not only are you not looking for them, but you're also routinely, actively choosing other things over them, because he's probably presenting them to you often. I try to think of it in terms of I am a connection specialist and he is a life survival specialist and we would do best to find a balance between us, since I take care of our unit and he takes care of us as individuals. I hope you can see him like that, too, and understand that his obsession and annoyingness is in part that he is wired to optimize his relationships at all costs.

    As for the bold, I feel your anxiety and I'm sorry, it sounds painful . On the bright side - I doubt he actually has any real problems with you wanting/needing a parachute. The issue, I suspect, is probably more about him perceiving you as consciously choosing the parachute over him, which, I'm guessing, does not feel true from your standpoint. After all, you can have your parachute and jump with him, too! (Better yet, you can make sure that crazy boy is also strapped in.) I think part of what might help is to delineate very clearly to him situations where you need to be doing sp-things and explaining that you don't love him any less for it, but you just have to do those things because that is who you are (an NFP should understand that). Even better if you can involve him in them, and he should be a very good helper, if you direct him. I love doing really mundane things like going with my boyfriend to get routine car maintenance done, because I'm really good at taking a "boring-but-necessary" situation like that and turning it into a fun opportunity for connection - last time I "kidnapped" him from the garage and took him down the street for frozen yogurt. And then he feels useful, too, which I'm guessing would be really good for him.

    This is how I feel exactly! Why I need stability so much is because he is unable to provide me any, so I need to be sure that in the worst case scenario, I will be able to provide that for both of us.

    I don't know but I feel like he secretly likes it when I am irrational, like when I give him a hard time because "We don't talk enough" and he has to be the one to explain that he has work to do, or when I get jealous of him when he spends time with someone else. He gets annoyed sometimes when I act like that, but I can't help but feel that deep down it makes him feel like I love him. It is like knowing that you matter to your partner and that they will be deeply hurt if you leave them. This is not totally healthy, but I completely understand.
    I would imagine you're right. For someone who is always paying attention to someone else and the relationship with someone else, while they seem to be paying attention to anything else, it's really nice when the tables turn and they express that they actually do pay attention to the relationship, too. I think it's important that it's not necessarily about paying attention to him as much as the connection between you and him. I suspect that maybe this gets lost in translation... you feel like he needs you a lot, and he expresses that he's not getting what he needs... but that's because he actually wants your focus on the bond between you, not necessarily on himself. It often feels hollow to me when the focus is only on me and not on both of us, even when the intention is very sweet. I think it is very much about knowing you matter to your partner and that they will be negatively affected without your bond. It's kind of a sad thing, though, a desperate thing, when it comes out in unhealthy ways like that. It means that he's not getting the sx affirmation he needs... the hard thing for sx doms is that, if we are in relationships, we must get that affirmation from our partner, and can't provide it for ourselves, like you generally can with sp needs. I am so sorry to say this because I think it will hurt for you too, but I suspect that maybe you are also leaving him feeling like he is out of the plane with no parachute.


    That's a good point!
    I only just realized it myself A useful realization, lol, so thank you for prompting it!

    I think most of our problems come out when we are not physically together. When we are together, I don't know if it's because we are so happy we just gloss over everything or if we communicate better, but we rarely have disagreements. He is usually very sensitive and very caring. Most of this 'lashing out' of his happens when he is under stress, which unfortunately is the whole time we are not together.
    I think that you can help ease his stress with a steady stream of emotional support and focus on your connection, if you are willing to do that. I actually enjoy being away from my partner at times because it's like we have a "special", understood connection then. It almost heightens our connection, which is like crack to me.

    He is a 9w1, and he avoids thinking about problems most of the time, so that doesn't help. I have tried to bring up deep, underlying issues, and it works when we are together in the same room and he feels relax enough to think about them. When we are apart, however, he just avoids difficult issues altogether and will just rather do things to distract himself from the negative feelings.
    Yeah I understand that. 9s are a special challenge. It always seems like he feels very threatened when I bring up issues. To me, they already exist, so there is no difference in bringing them up versus not. Might as well bring them up, then at least you can address them. To him, it's not a problem until you call it a problem. Maybe @PeaceBaby can help with any suggestions about how to bring conflict up with 9s? Pretty please?

    I think he is going to view my 'freedom' as more evidence that I don't love him that much. Last night he seemed a bit bothered that I did not insist on having a long conversation or get sad when he said he could not talk because he was in the library. Currently I'm still analyzing my state of mind and I don't get it 100%, and I have no idea how I'm going to explain it to him.
    Honestly, I think you might just want to attribute it to being caught up in worry about [specific event], until you figure out how you want to address it all with him. I don't think knowing that will help him any at this point.

    Now I'm really starting to feel bad for him, though. Again, I can't help but feel like I'm not taking care of him well enough and that perhaps if I indulged him only a little bit more, he will feel loved
    I think so! There's no reason you should feel bad though, we're all naturally blinded to it, and by writing this thread you're already working on it. We all accidentally hurt each other because of our difference perspectives and all we can do is work on it. The great thing about all of this is that I honestly think your problem is a fairly easy fix of affirming him in the way he naturally needs to be affirmed. I don't think you need to drop a ton of money on a visit, though I do think it would go very far to show up on his doorstep one day. His depression is another issue entirely, and it is an extra burden on you to deal with someone going through a psychological crisis.

    But, like the piercings, I don't think it's the cause here, just a red herring in the mix.


  10. #20
    Unlimited Dancemoves ® AgentF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE
    Posts
    1,570

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I think to give an sx-dom stability, you have to let them know that you're so affected by them that you desire to keep them within yourself, that you want to, in part, belong to them, and have them, in part, belong to you.
    quite so.
    I may be kindly, I am ordinarily gentle, but in my line of business I am obliged to will terribly what I will at all.
    ~ Catherine the Great


    7w6 ❣ sx/so ❤ physical touch ❥ sanguine 70%, choleric 30% ❦

    Johari.

Similar Threads

  1. If You Don't Do It, Someone Else Will
    By Obfuscate in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 12-27-2016, 08:00 PM
  2. Murkrow will do anything for cash.
    By murkrow in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 08-26-2009, 12:55 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO