[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Difficulty being assertive to friends (INFJ)

[EcK]

I call upon [MENTION=5643]EcK[/MENTION].

What? Why?

 

[emmapeel]

Wow, so many replies, thank you all. I've done a lot of thinking last night, sparked by Starry's replies, and the newer replies are also very helpful.

The thing is, tonight I realized I actually don't really have a problem with being assertive, I have a problem with being assertive to this particular friend (and my in-laws).

Apart from my very best friend this particular friend is the only friend left from all the friends I've made between the age of 12 and 22. All the others have gone, either because they doorslammed me (rightfully) or I doorslammed them (rightfully as well). With all the friends of that period I think I came across as very dominant, but I was never really assertive. I actually think I didn't dare to be assertive so as to compensate for my general dominant appearance, as I used to get a lot of feedback that I talked too much or dominated situations etc. I couldn't possibly actively defend my boundaries when everybody hated my dominance already. I really hated that paradox, it left deep scars that are still there.

With all my friends made after the age of 22 (so the last 8 years) I am a lot less dominant and lot more assertive. Those are fairly easy, healthy friendships. I can't recall having many assertive-related problems with them.

My in-laws are a different story as I didn't really chose them like you choose friends and my husband is always stuck in the middle. So that's just a case of finding the right way to handle things and getting to really know each other. It's something my husband and I are working on together, as a team, as my husband sometimes finds it difficult to be assertive to his family as well.

So I guess it's all about one single friend that's the last one standing of a certain period in my life. A period in which I didn't set boundaries at all hoping they would finally stop calling me 'dominant', 'too loud', too talkative', 'self-centered', 'spoiled' and whatever. Wow, what a really unexpected conclusion....

 

[emmapeel]

Right, had a few days more to think about this. I would like to add that this particular friend isn't a good friend for nothing: usually our visits are very pleasant and interesting (in a positive way), just the specific day in the specific example was weird and confronting. But it was a weird day for different reasons as well, so I guess that day just wasn't meant to be

Anyway, it was meant as an example to illustrate my lack of assertiveness. And I guess I was stuck in an old assumption that I'm never very good with being assertive. I now realize I have changed. Hurrah!

Nevertheless I still don't like people touching my stuff and I now realize that this isn't a natural universal boundary, so thanks for that!

 

[unityemissions]

All I can say that XNFJ's are idiotic douchebags because they are non-assertive. Instead, they RUN, HIDE, and get INCREDIBLY PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE.

I had an ex girlfriend who was either INFJ, or ENFJ. I have strong introverted feeling, so could tell when she was being insincere with me through her expression: tone, wording, gap between certain words, etc...it was all way off key. So I called her out on her bs, and she kept making up more bs.

She kept asking for more "space", so I'd wait a week or two each time. She told me things like, "just have faith", while she was out screwing my best friend from high school. Once we talked again there was this fake ass, outright disgusting high pitch "hey" that let me know the stupid bitch never wanted to discuss our issues...and it fucking drove me nuts.

The stupid bitch ended up creating a false harassment report, filled with about 90% lies, and felt justified "because I was hurting her feelings" with the truth of how she was treating me. Complete stupid bitch, and now I got something on my record because she wasn't capable of being an adult and taking the hit when it was best, and being honest with me.

The stupid bitch cheated on me, lied about it even though I knew from the guy, made up mounds of additional lies to try and dig herself out of the hole, and when I finally blew up on her she filed a charge, without giving me any damned notice that I shouldn't be trying to talk with her. Complete psycho with her Fe.

You want some advice?? Be honest. Be a fucking grown up. When there's issues between you and someone, OWN THEM. Speak your mind. I find the ability to speak your mind no matter how "ugly" it is, to be highly respectable. It solves issues. Gets it all out. You know how you don't want to rerun internally with things that cause you suffereing?? WELL IT"S THE SAME DAMNED THING FOR OTHERS< AND THEY NEED THE CONFRONTATION>>>THEY NEED THE TRUTH.

I will never try to date an xNFJ again...it was as if she was a whining baby at 30 years old...

 

[Usehername]

So I guess it's all about one single friend that's the last one standing of a certain period in my life. A period in which I didn't set boundaries at all hoping they would finally stop calling me 'dominant', 'too loud', too talkative', 'self-centered', 'spoiled' and whatever. Wow, what a really unexpected conclusion....

That's interesting. You have to transform your identity with a relationship that old, instead of just being accepted for your more mature and developed self right off the bat in a new relationship. It sounds like you're having an internal battle when around her, and like she's more of an environment/place in your lifetime rather than a particular problem as an individual.

Also, yes, those aren't "natural" boundaries, so it's just a matter of constructing them.

 

[emmapeel]

[MENTION=315]Usehername[/MENTION] Yes, my thought as well

 

[Totenkindly]

All I can say that XNFJ's are idiotic douchebags because they are non-assertive. Instead, they RUN, HIDE, and get INCREDIBLY PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE.....it was as if she was a whining baby at 30 years old...

That's funny... it sounds an awful like my last INFP boyfriend.
Guess it cuts across type.

Not sure why you feel the need to come in here and project because you had a bad relationship with an NFJ.

 

[highlander]

Hm. I know I used to be rather rigid and with a lot of rules, which was confusing and annoying for others. At some point I simply couldn't keep track of my own rules anymore (let alone others) and became very inconsistent with them. So I made them a lot easier, for myself and for others (this took me a lot of time, but I did it). These days I only have one rule according to my stuff: "My stuff is mine, don't touch it. And if you want to touch it anyway, please just ask and I'll probably say yes. Just ask before you take/do." I don't have 'you can sit in the red chair, but not in the blue chair, unless it's Sunday or full moon' kind of rules.

In my defence in this particular example: it was above all the many drops that made the ocean. I could have easily chosen to not care about baby spit on my floor if the rest of the visit went smooth, I you understand what I mean. That's what makes being assertive so difficult in this case. When say something, when stay quiet.

Ummm..... It sounds like you are a little uptight to me. Your stuff is your stuff? Spitting on the floor? Really? I do think you need to change your perspective and relax a little. Maybe your friend knows that and unconsciously pushes you further than she should in an effort to get you to change. All this doorsmamming of all of your friends before a certain age? Do you think there might be a pattern that tells you something?

 

[Totenkindly]

One of my best friends (I've known her for half my life, she thinks she's INFJ but I believe she's INTJ) has always been somewhat 'dominant-light'. Half a year ago she has given birth to her first child & she has turned into a 'nothing-but-a-mother' type of person. Good for her although I have to get used to the new her, especially because me and my husband have chosen to never have children and feel a bit awkward around small children. She knows this. Nevertheless she thinks I should have a child as well and just oozes 'you-will-change-your-mind-someday' kind of vibes. Okay, I'm used to that, many people openly doubt my (very well thought through) decision, whatever, their problem.

So far so good. Then she came to visit our new house a few months ago with her boyfriend and baby. (She lives 150 miles away, so we hardly see each other, maybe twice a year) That's when she completely claimed the house. (and my house is my private castle, many INFJ's can probably relate). During the tour around our new home she was constantly talking to her baby 'giving him stuff'. I have a little cosy bench in my very private workroom and she just exclaimed "Oh look [name baby], you can sleep here!" Okay... This happened a few times more during the tour. All the while the baby was drooling on my wooden floor, which she didn't notice or didn't care for. Okay... Once she was sitting in the living room with a cup of tea I secretly hopped around the house with a cleaning cloth to remove his spit. Then she asked me told me to take the baby on my lap. I've never even touched a baby so I told her that maybe this was not such a good idea as I have to take things very slow with babies. She insisted nevertheless, stating that if I was going to be his semi-official godmother that I ought to take him *now*. Okay... [I did retract myself as godmother a few weeks later, due to it being incompatible with my childless life, should have never said yes in the first place, but was flattered that she asked]. Then we had to talk about her baby for many, many hours. Then it started crying and she ordered her boyfriend to go upstairs with him to calm him down. Huh, you tell your boyfriend to go upstairs, *my* upstairs, without even consulting me? While you know how I feel about letting people in in my private space? Okay, I just escorted boyfriend and baby to a place upstairs I could live with. These kind of things went on and on until they left and left me exhausted, having felt like a visitor in my own home.

This sounds to me like an issue on both of your parts.

I actually have some similar feelings that you mentioned here. While I'm flexible, I don't like it when people just walk into my personal space and suddenly act like it is their personal space. I would be extremely bothered if someone acted like your friend did -- basically because my best friends would never just try to take over my space anyway, they would always ask if something is okay first. It's more odd to me that you have someone you consider a close friend who seems to pervasively trample all your natural boundaries like this -- I would never feel close to someone who did that.

I also sympathize with dealing with someone who just assumes you'll be like her, as soon as you have a baby, and that it's just a matter of you "catching" up. To me, that is another boundary violation -- that not only your space is her space, but that your feelings and experiences will ultimately be the same as hers, rather than respecting that you are are a different person and might come to different conclusions about what you want out of life.

It makes sense to me that you withdrew from the godparent position, because it doesn't sounds like a good fit for you.

The "baby spit" thing, I might have been able to flex on and cleaned later, but I understand why you did what you did. I do think that, if you ever become a parent, you would end up having to deal with a LOT of stuff like that (one's life and environment simply cannot be controlled to that degree once one has kids, it's just impossible to maintain the energy level and it's not good for the kids to be in a rigid environment), so you probably could flex a bit more; but I understand that it's hard when you're single and usually have that degree of control over your personal surroundings.

All the underlined okays are moments that I think I maybe should have or could have been more assertive. My parents and husband agree that she crossed some boundaries during her visit, so apparently my feelings are valid It's just the type of person she is. She very well knows how I feel about things (about babies, about letting people into my home), nevertheless she seems to just ignore it and do her own way. I realize she is very much in love with her baby right now, but does that mean that she can just ignore other people's obvious feelings?

I would wonder if she were more an extrovert, since extroverts tend to drift into those kinds of behaviors more easily; introverts are used to the idea of "personal space" and tend to be a little more respectful of it, but your friend sounds like she has no distinction between your space and hers.

A few days ago I received an e-mail in which she invites herself (including baby and boyfriend) to come round. I haven't replied yet and will reply that we will visit her home this time instead of the other way around, buying me some time to mentally prepare for her next visit. I'm also scared that she will never be an individual again, but the mother of a little family, travelling in a pack of three everywhere they go. I like her boyfriend and her baby to a decent extent, but I really don't need to see them everytime I see her. I can't possibly let a friendship be ruined by something innocent like a little baby, so I think this is the moment to bite the bullet and start being more assertive, but I don't know where to begin.

So what do you like about your relationship with her? Why do you want to maintain this friendship? It sounds like she does many things that irritates you and has no understanding of your personal boundaries, yet you want to persist in the friendship. So what benefit do you both receive from it?

Some people just really play into their role. It sounds like she always wanted to be a mom and derives a benefit from presenting herself as one. So for the moment, it sounds like you need to adjust to her being a "full-time mom" and not really exhibiting other aspects of herself that you connected better with. This kind of thing does happen when changes in life occur; sometimes friendships diminish and are even lost, other times they can persist. That's just life. If you want to maintain it, do your best, but it won't help anyone if you're forcing a friendship to exist past the point where it naturally exists. I've known other women like this, who really get into playing the role of wife and/or mom to the exclusion of other things; I am not one of those people, it's very important to me to maintain my individuality and diversity regardless of what roles I assume, but I know some other people are not that way. it simply means I can't expect as much of a relationship with them as I might like, it's just the way it is. So I would wish her well, do what you can, and meanwhile let her live her life.

I do think you just need to be more upfront with her -- that you would appreciate her asking or taking more care with your space when she is there, unless you specifically tell her it's okay to treat your house like her house. I don't think you can maintain the positive feelings toward her if you don't. And if you set boundaries and she abandons the friendship, then that's her choice; if she can respect them, then you can focus more on your friendship at last than be caught up in the other things that are bothering you. But you're going to either become ill or you're going to hate her, if you don't set better boundaries that are observable.

EDIT: I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, so forgive me if I missed some new and/or updated info that would change my reply...

 

[emmapeel]

[MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] Yes, I suppose my stuff is my stuff and if you spit on it you're supposed to care instead of ignoring it or acting like it's so very normal. It's not. Not in my world and the world of most people in my inner circle. I do think she's pushing me a little though, not the best way to get me to change As for doorslamming during puberty/early adult years: really, in retrospect most of them weren't very good friends (some even abusive), in some cases we just grew apart. Why would that be a pattern? I hardly know anybody who has many childhood friends actually.
[MENTION=7]Jennifer[/MENTION] thanks for the long reply. I think you're right, I need to be assertive in this case or I might lose the friendship, which I really don't want. And then I guess it's up to her what to do with those boundaries. As for why we're close friends: the weird visit was just an example to illustrate my lack of assertiveness. It was a very unusual day, usually our days together are very good.

 

[emmapeel]

By the way, why is my reply to unityemissions edited, while he can still call me an idiotic douchebag and insinuate I'm a stupid bitch?

 

[cascadeco]

[MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] Yes, I suppose my stuff is my stuff and if you spit on it you're supposed to care instead of ignoring it or acting like it's so very normal. It's not. Not in my world and the world of most people in my inner circle.

Why do you think everyone should care about what you care about? /curious, as it kind of sounds like that's what you're saying, although I'm sorry if I'm misreading that.

I think if you let people know how you feel about things and ask them to please respect x, y, or z, that's one thing, and then if they disregard it you can bring it up. But I don't think it's fair to think everyone is going to know about some of your quirks if you've never mentioned it in the past. (and I think a lot of people don't pick up on indirect, subtle hints) Not sure how much of this you do or don't do, just something I was thinking.

As for doorslamming during puberty/early adult years: really, in retrospect most of them weren't very good friends (some even abusive), in some cases we just grew apart. Why would that be a pattern? I hardly know anybody who has many childhood friends actually.

I guess it depends on what you mean by doorslamming, as imo there's a difference between two people more naturally losing touch with each other over time, vs. a more sudden doorslam. But honestly, no need to get into that in this thread... that topic always ends up opening a huge can of worms. But to answer you directly, no, there are a lot of infj's who don't have a history of doorslamming a long series of people - hence I can see [MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION]'s point about inquiring whether it's a pattern or not.

 

[emmapeel]

I really don't think all people should be the same or care for the exact same things. I did think that this particular case was rather 'normal' as almost all the people around me think the same about this. Clearly I was wrong. Clearly I need to be assertive about my boundaries. But that was the whole point of this thread in the first place: how to be assertive.

As for the doorslamming: I don't see it as a INFJ thing, but I know it's a thing I've done a few times. You weren't there so you can't judge me for my reasons, but trust me, it was the only right thing to do. I doubt I would sit here today if I hadn't cut those people out of my life.

This whole thread is starting to become a bit of a 'me struggling to be assertive' thing in itself. That's pretty confusing.

 

[mmhmm]

By the way, why is my reply to unityemissions edited, while he can still call me an idiotic douchebag and insinuate I'm a stupid bitch?

emmapeel. you may be my favourite new poster.
one day, [MENTION=13648]Meek[/MENTION] may just be a distant memory.

 

[Lexicon]

@the OP, seriously, the biggest issue, is to grow up, learn to speak and not expect others to know your boundaries just because they know you. It's obnoxious and pointless to allow yourself to get so worked up over someone existing near you, like that. If they don't know what the heck your preferences are, that's your problem, not theirs. You need to learn to communicate with your friend, or just save up to get a hotel room for her to stay in, if it's that much of a problem and you find it too hard to speak to her about something as simple as living space preferences. If she's that much of a friend to you, then this should be easier than you think. She does care about you, yes? I'm not trying to come off condescending, here- I just grow weary of fellow Fe users not taking responsibility for how they emotionally react to things, and people. It sounds like you're at least moving in that direction, & I wish you luck. (I'm not exempt from this, either, but I try to monitor myself on a near-constant basis, to prevent such needless stress.)

Open your mouth, and speak.
In the end, it's all you can/need to do.

Someone did mention hormones at play here, which is also a good point- this is why I mentioned perhaps, if it's that worthwhile a friendship to you, maybe getting her a hotel room (maybe make it sound like a treat for her), next time she visits, or simply be less available until some of that hormonal garbage wears off.. the lines of communication might be a bit more open, in time.

*edit* - I'm of very limited means, so I realize sometimes a hotel room is not viable for some people to opt for, even if they were given time to save up the cash. Until her <3Baby Blinders<3 wear down a bit, you could try to prepare in advance, for her arrival. Even if the kid can't walk yet- buy a baby gate or two at a cheap store, to block off areas where the baby shouldn't be. You don't have to explain why she/he shouldn't be there, & most people, I don't think, would question it. They'd think you were trying to be safe & accommodating for their little bundle of.. joy. Get some of those cheap little plastic blockers for electrical outlets, too, maybe. They're like a dollar. Just makes it look more like you're doing these things for the benefit of your tiny guest, vs protecting your spaces. I don't know if you live in the USA or not, but if you do- providing you save the packaging- you can buy/return all that crap to Walmart, when you're done with it. Then there's no money spent, and perhaps less tension all around.

Just tossing out ideas. I did this for my ISFJ mother when she had a guest visit, with one little boy & two babies. It seemed to help with establishing some semblance of boundaries without having to overtly communicate them, in words, if it's just too hard to approach, in the short-term.

 

[Ivy]

By the way, why is my reply to unityemissions edited, while he can still call me an idiotic douchebag and insinuate I'm a stupid bitch?

He did not call you an idiotic douchebag, nor a stupid bitch. Swear words are not against the rules here, and insults are only against the rules here if they are directed at specific members. This is distinct from insulting groups members are a part of, which we do not police (short of the most egregious racial slurs and the like). So "INFJs are such idiotic douchebags!" is not against the rules, but if unityemissions had said "you're just like all the other INFJs, an idiotic douchebag!" then that would have been dealt with as it would have been directed at you specifically. As for the "stupid bitch" portion, while crudely stated, I don't think the woman unityemissions was referring to is a member here. In the absence of a personally directed insult we err on the side of allowing people to reveal their character here.

On the other hand, your reply to unityemissions was directed at him personally, and that's why it was edited.

A link to the FAQ, which details our code of conduct and what's allowed and not in this particular community, can be found here or at the top of any page.

 

[unityemissions]

That's funny... it sounds an awful like my last INFP boyfriend.
Guess it cuts across type.

Not sure why you feel the need to come in here and project because you had a bad relationship with an NFJ.

It's actually an interaction between opposing dominant functions. Fe & Fi.

nite!

 

[emmapeel]

Concerning the mod rules I think I have a different opinion about what language can do to people, but the rules are the rules and I agreed to them when I registered. I don't see any logical difference between All infjs are shit & All chinese people are shit, though, as they are both things one is born with.

As for the thread itself: it is beautifully revealing to me what makes being assertive so difficult for me. To some people I actively need to defend my feelings as they find my personal boundaries weird/invalid and it's tiring. I was vulnerable in opening up and I'm left with all kinds of semi-conflicts. This is upsetting me. My initial reaction is: "I probably wasn't clear enough about my problem, so I should give more info, as they are only trying to help." When that doesn't seem to work or even makes things worse, I don't know what to do anymore. I think maybe agreeing to disagree is really hard for me. Ha, isn't desperately trying to reach consensus a typical INFJ thing?

As for the example about the visiting friend: it was just an example, not the only reason for this thread. And I do know I can't expect people to respect boundaries if you don't tell them to. It's the 'how do I tell them' part that I find so hard and that was the reason to start this thread. How to be assertive.

As for the my stuff is my stuff thing. I've heard that that's different in the USA? That guests can just open the fridge and take something for instance? In my European country that would be totally awkward. In my country guests are supposed to somewhat stay in the same room as the host (except when sleeping over or a large party or going to the bathroom). In my country touching stuff when visiting someone doesn't go any further than carefully browsing cds or books, using the toilet and maybe helping out in the kitchen. It's in our upbringing, every child knows: "Look with your eyes, not your hands"

 

[spirilis]

I don't know about opening someone's fridge ... that is pretty awkward (in my experience), even in the US, unless the guests are good friends of yours (or, obviously, you tell them to--like it's a party and there are cold drinks in there).

 

[JocktheMotie]

If I had to ask someone to open their fridge, I would not be their friend.