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  1. #71
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Walls are a protection mechanism. It means there could be more, but there also could be nothing.

    Imagine someone building a crappy looking wall to give the impression that inside has nothing to really protect. Also imagine someone spending all there money on this fancy wall just for image, yet they have nothing really behind it. You also have those that build a wall to match what is behind it because they value the entire package.

    Walls are meant to protect, it says nothing about what is being protected.
    If walls are protecting nothing then they aren't protecting anything and aren't meant for protection. Unless they don't want people to know how empty they are, if so then it is protecting something, but to always assume that a wall is actually a boundary doesn't make sense if there is nothing, but more rock behind it, because a wall with nothing behind it is more like a door anyway, something to be opened.



    Maybe I shouldn't say wall anymore, but dead-end, of course that's also a wall. I guess what someone could think is a wall is actually a dead-end and that's what I mean. Not every wall has something behind it. I am going to assume we are in agreement.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by momental View Post
    If walls are protecting nothing then they aren't protecting anything and aren't meant for protection. Unless they don't want people to know how empty they are, if so then it is protecting something, but to always assume that a wall is actually a boundary doesn't make sense if there is nothing, but more rock behind it, because a wall with nothing behind it is more like a door anyway, something to be opened.



    Maybe I shouldn't say wall anymore, but dead-end, of course that's also a wall. I guess what someone could think is a wall is actually a dead-end and that's what I mean. Not every wall has something behind it. I am going to assume we are in agreement.
    Exactly Walls are also meant to keep in deamons, protect the outside world from whats within
    Im out, its been fun

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Exactly Walls are also meant to keep in deamons, protect the outside world from whats within
    But not every wall has emptiness or something worth protecting behind it.

    Like placing intention behind words that are meant to be plain.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by momental View Post
    But not every wall has emptiness or something worth protecting behind it.

    Like placing intention behind words that are meant to be plain.
    then is it really a wall? The only thing I can think of are walls that are just laying around from the past. They really have no use, but they are still standing in some form or fashion.
    Im out, its been fun

  5. #75
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Z Buck just described it way better than I could! Especially the part about having to remain more distant if there's no way to make sense of everything that I'm seeing. It's not so much that I want to do it to be nosy or because I enjoy analyzing everything to death, but that it is like "flying blind" as she described it to not have access to any of that information!

  6. #76
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    My ex-wife ENFJ give me "help" with insights. I dont really listen nor do I care because while they are true, I dont really care about what she cares about. I also have NFPs who try to help me out by telling me how women are. From my experience NFJs will backstab you different then NFPs. They will hurt you different. They are completely different people in how they think/feel/interact.

    The funniest thing I heard is when a women went to a pre-marriage counseling session and came out thinking "I have a lot more issues(in regard to who they are in the relationship) then I thought, WTF". And this was something that was told to me, not heresay or anything like that.
    Yeah it makes sense that not everyone shares the same values. It's just when one doesn't take responsibility for the consequences or acknowledge that sometimes their actions impact others that it gets to me. Or when my shoulder is repeatedly cried on over the same stupid stuff. As far as I'm concerned, party, blow your money, screw whoever you want, but don't leave your kids in a crappy place and don't expect other people to clean up your messes.

    Don't drive all your gas out running some guy around, then call me because you're stranded at the side of the road. Don't tell me about all the booze you consumed over the weekend and then call me because your kids don't have any food. Don't mess around with some other woman's man and then get upset because you have relationship problems.

    I do stupid stuff, too. I know that. And I'm not deluded enough to think I'm easy to live with. And I've been very lucky in a lot of ways, especially in love. But it's just grown-up 101 to take care of your kids, pay your bills and buy food before you get fun stuff, and suck it up when you do something stupid and it blows up in your face, IMO.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Yeah it makes sense that not everyone shares the same values. It's just when one doesn't take responsibility for the consequences or acknowledge that sometimes their actions impact others that it gets to me. Or when my shoulder is repeatedly cried on over the same stupid stuff. As far as I'm concerned, party, blow your money, screw whoever you want, but don't leave your kids in a crappy place and don't expect other people to clean up your messes.

    Don't drive all your gas out running some guy around, then call me because you're stranded at the side of the road. Don't tell me about all the booze you consumed over the weekend and then call me because your kids don't have any food. Don't mess around with some other woman's man and then get upset because you have relationship problems.

    I do stupid stuff, too. I know that. And I'm not deluded enough to think I'm easy to live with. And I've been very lucky in a lot of ways, especially in love. But it's just grown-up 101 to take care of your kids, pay your bills and buy food before you get fun stuff, and suck it up when you do something stupid and it blows up in your face, IMO.
    nice
    Im out, its been fun

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    then is it really a wall? The only thing I can think of are walls that are just laying around from the past. They really have no use, but they are still standing in some form or fashion.
    In my earlier post I said I have decided to call it a dead-end. That's exactly my point, it may not be a wall at all.

  9. #79
    Diving into Ni-space Crescent Fresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Plus, to actually answer the OP, I don't think my insights into people hinder having a relationship with anyone, but I often want the relationship to attain a greater depth than it does in reality (for a myriad of different reasons that are moot to comment on here). I will often open topics of conversation that lead to deeper venues, but few people are interested to go there. Still, I do have some very close friends and for that I am very grateful.

    I think that sometimes you sharing your insight might actually have potential to deepen a relationship past the more superficial stages, esp if you are compassionate in sharing and correct when you voice your thoughts. That would be the crux I think. You would have to be right and deliver that at the perfect time and in the perfect way, or else risk the relationship shutting down. So the key would be to have the appropriate filter in place that prevented you from exposing what you think you know until you truly know it (and arguably, who really knows anything, eh?) Plus, possessing the wisdom to know who can handle that truth and who cannot.

    Excellent points.

    I think for NJs we can be lack of patience in figuring out people conclusively within a short timeframe. As Fidelia points out, our Ni works slightly different from Ne users since we tend to have this incredible urge to read the behind-the-scene motives from ppl to satisfy our introverted-intuition judgement. And I *think* by offering our insights, even when it is negatively proceeded, we are trading for a deeper bond or trust by sharing our perspectives through honesty. Also, it can be frustrating for those who read it as unsolicited criticism, and I believe it has to do with the inability to soften our tone or to re-word it in a less judgemental way.

  10. #80
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    i think the idea of "paying attention" is easier said than done, because it's paying attention to the effects in a different way than Fe. it's not just throwing out a new prediction. it's this underdeveloped side of staying engaged in time so that you can stay with what happens. this is what makes you have good timing, and it's so important for how you use the insights, or the "readings" you generate with Ni. i lose sight of basic intersubjectivity ethics because i'm not really grounded in stories that come from the "how" question, that come from understanding your influence and the effects and taking responsibility for that in a tangible way. instead, i try to get the meanings right, live by a kind of ethical order that i work really hard at, but, unfortunately, some times miss the point when i lose my balance and more egregiously lose the flow of what is happening around me.

    i'm bad at many things skylights points out. i'm really bad at "getting information" about the actions i am taking. this has always felt sneaky to me, rather than just being direct and asking somewhat constraining questions and explicating the meaning. the art of "informing" communication, and navigating with well-selected information questions rather than yes/no questions, can be problematic and feel overbearing because i'm hiding the why rather than making an obvious claim for it (which i do see can be more face-saving). i think i'm also really bad at obtaining permission and recognizing the levels of access that would fit the various social contexts that define the situation. this is partly because i often respond to the meanings that are part of the communication without really grasping as directly how the messages being sent are a kind of action. the whole Fi thing about respecting other's rights to their own reality is difficult for me to stay with. i lose sight of the story that means you first have to establish contact, and then negotiate boundaries, which requires getting information strategically not just about the problem as you perceive it but about the relation that is established, the other person's feelings, etc.

    it's weird because from my perspective, it's like i'm just saying, i may not be all that interesting in many ways, but here is what i have that i think might be most valuable to you. it is searching for validation in a way, partly in the sense that i know that actually imparting something valuable, especially if it is recognized as valuable by the other person, makes me feel good.

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