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  1. #61
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    I think NFJs in particular have a certain sensitivity to cues that suggest some 'why'; it’ll seem ‘clear’ why someone said or did something- and it even takes a little effort to back up and separate the ‘why’ (the instant impression that pops into our head) from what’s actually in front of us. I think many of us learn to try to disregard it or pencil it in as a very tentative possibility instead of reacting to it directly though because it’s rather presumptuous- as fid pointed out, a great deal of it is simply making sense of others' actions by attaching what it would mean if we did it ourselves, and while that is *somewhat* reliable it isn’t anywhere near fool-proof. But my point is, I think NFJs are flooded with 'whys' in a way that others aren't. It’s important to take responsibility for it and clear up the possibilities we are flooded with, but it’s not really a choice to see ‘whys’ all over the place. [With NFPs, sensitivity tends to center more around the 'whats'.]

    As an example (not of me, but of my INFJ son reading into things): when my son was learning to drive a couple of years ago, he had a hard time focusing on driving because of cues going on in the car. I was grabbing the door handle and/or that roof handle thingie when he turned corners to brace myself- not hard, but just enough that he noticed and it made him anxious and he kept asking me to stop doing it. I explained he was doing a great job with turning corners, and that I wasn’t holding onto the door more than I usually do at corners- it was just that he was never in the front seat with me before so he never noticed- but he still had a hard time with it and kept reacting as though I was actually chiding him with “Slow down, your turning too fast!” After a couple of hours he got used to it and was able to tune it out- I think it became believable to him when I consistently held onto the handles every single time he turned, no matter how slowly he went- but at first, seeing this out of the corner of his eye was kinda the same as me actually saying something to him (and it was hard for him to immediately believe otherwise when I directly told him he was good at turning corners because the cues strongly suggested the contrary).

    So anyway, this sensitivity to cues is a hindrance in relationships sometimes because it puts a lot of restrictions on who I can form genuine relationships with/who I can feel comfortable around. And it’s why- as fid has said so many times- it’s incredibly important that I be able to ask people and clear up possibilities about those cues because it’s agitating to feel like there’s an elephant in the room that I’m not allowed to ask about or that I have to make sense of on my own- it feels disrespectful and presumptuous to do that. It's clearly there to me and I don't like defining it all by myself. When I sense certain topics are invasive to someone, or that it’s agitating to bring them up, I have to keep them at a distance to minimize this automatic urge to make sense of the pieces- the more I distance someone, the more I can leave those ‘whys’ open-ended and make no presumptions about them. But then I really do have to keep them at a distance or the ‘white noise’ it creates gets too distracting. Like with my sister (who is either ISTP or ISTJ, I think), she does not want to discuss a lot of things and gets angry at me for even trying to clear things up- so I have to shut off caring about a lot of things that I don't like being indifferent about.....but I seriously can't handle someone being very important to me while not being able to clear up the things that occur to me. It’s kind of like the game Tetris- where the pieces fall and I have to decide what to do with them, where to put them based on what makes sense/where they ‘fit’- and if I can’t directly ask a person about it when a piece looks like it doesn’t fit anywhere, or if that person routinely tells me something that doesn’t make sense or gets angry that I’m even asking- I have to avoid the person because it’s just too confusing to deal with them. I can't stop the pieces from coming simply because they other person doesn't want me to acknowledge they're there.



    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    with my ENFJ best friend, I'm kind of off-put sometimes by the way she is always "investigating" everyone... like everyone is always a problem open for her to solve and that she can figure them out. It seems kind of belittling. The way fidelia explains it as needing to understand so you can decide how to behave in response makes sense... I think sometimes my ENFJ gets a little lost in the "game" of it, though, and loses some empathy in the process (just as I, admittedly, can get lost in the "game" of getting on others' emotional level, and encourage them to place more trust in me than they probably should).
    I’m sure I have this affect on people too, sometimes. I wouldn’t even say it’s that I need to understand in order to decide how to behave in response so much as it’s about making sense of the stories that flood my awareness. I mean, I guess it is about ‘understanding so that I can decide how to behave’, but only in the sense that it’s my primary means of navigating the external world and it’s like I’m flying blind without it. I don’t actively choose to go looking for pieces to make sense of though- I have to make sense of the pieces that are appearing on their own. And so asking a lot of questions is actually my attempt at being respectful and making sure the intuitive leaps of my mind are sensible to others as well. I do often pick up on the cues though that someone else sees it as being ‘too much’ (that they don’t understand the need to bounce it off others) so I try to keep it limited to the people who understand why I need to do it. [I'm not discounting the possibility that skylight's friend really is just being callous- I'm just saying I probably come across that way too myself at times.]

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I have to say that I've never bought into the idea that some people don't like INFJs because we're too insightful. I've heard this quite a bit and it seems like a really arrogant approach.
    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones
    I think if your insights into people cause them to shut down then you're probably doing it wrong. A bit more insight into people might help with that.
    Quote Originally Posted by bologna
    I'll clarify, here: paying attention isn't itself insight--but it's necessary to pay attention to what life throws at you in order to gain or refine insight. That is, it's a matter of taking in information and also processing it correctly.

    All this^, an absolutely essential aspect of ‘insight’ is accepting and taking responsibility for the extent to which interpretation of the cues could be wrong.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  2. #62
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalmommy View Post
    I have realized over the last 6 pages of replies that I probably did not communicate myself completely clearly. This has been a progression of understanding over my lifetime. When I was young, I didn't understand people well enough to judge when I should say something & when I shouldn't. Experience has taught me how to behave in many circumstances. There are still those that surprise me tho.

    As I have hopefully clarified, I see pieces without context sometimes...or without enough context...and through the course of conversation, they become aware that I've seen. Not necessarily because I've blurted out my observation, but perhaps from the context of a question or something I say.

    I don't think it's a magical ability, but it is an ability. There are just times that I happen upon things that were supposed to be camouflaged and I don't immediately realize that there was supposed to be camouflage. The "oops!" side of NF interpersonal relations, if you will. They're opportunities for learning, but sometimes those opportunities come at a cost when people freak out that you've inadvertently exposed something.
    Yah see...I don't see it as an 'ability' (magical or otherwise). I see it as an interest.

    And as far as I'm concerned JivinJeffJones wins the thread with this piece of solid gold...
    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I think if your insights into people cause them to shut down then you're probably doing it wrong. A bit more insight into people might help with that.
    ^^^I mean, in the end that's what this is about.

    EDIT: haha...I just saw Z Buck quoted this same JJJ quote. Now I'll go back and read her post.

  3. #63
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Sometimes I believe I see so deep into a person, that I don't even try to start one.

  4. #64
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Sometimes I believe I see so deep into a person, that I don't even try to start one.
    Start one what? (I love ENFPs so much I just had to say it).


    EDIT - Writing that bit about loving ENFPs may have made it seem like I understood what you were saying @Qlip...but I didn't. That first part is a serious question. I have no idea what you are talking about.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalmommy View Post
    No, I said I don't immediately realize that what I've seen is something that the person does not wish to have seen. What I see is not all-encompassing. I don't see all the context, the entirety of the emotion surrounding that piece, or why they may be in denial/stuffing said piece.

    And there is no way to predict how someone will react to having that item seen. Some people are horrified & erect a wall, some are tentative & wish to discuss further, everyone is different. And it takes time to see how. It's like if you see food in someone's teeth. Most people don't want that seen, but you did. Now what? Do you tell them? Do you ignore it? Will they be mad if you do/don't say something? This is a vastly over-simplified example, but it helps to illustrate my point.

    I also never said I was "special" and could do things no one else can do. Clearly that is not true. I don't see things because I'm looking for them, either. They're just there. It's a culmination of what is said, how it is said, what is not said. I cannot unsee them, either. It just is. You know, the whole iNtuitive thing.

    And reaching a wall? Provides tremendous insight. Walls are erected to protect something, which is only necessary if someone wants to protect it. A lot of information can be gleaned from what people don't say, what they want to protect or hide.
    And I am saying part of the insight is knowing that the person doesn't want it to be seen. Insight is something that provides knowledge into that person, something deep into what they are fundamentally and with that comes the idea that this carries an importance; which, means you don't have the mistake of telling them something about themselves accidentally causing them build to "walls".

    I still think walls don't inherently mean anything. They mean you can't go further, that does not mean it is implicitly guarding something, or that something more is behind it.

    You didn't say you were special, but you asked if NF's have this problem. So either you are special or the group is special, but if the group is special and your in the group then you are special, too. So in a way your justifying your special-ness.

  6. #66
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by momental View Post
    Insight is something that provides knowledge into that person, something deep into what they are fundamentally and with that comes the idea that this carries an importance; which, means you don't have the mistake of telling them something about themselves accidentally causing them build to "walls".
    Yeah, I can see this and think I can agree. Truly knowing someone / having a good read on them, or sense of who they are, to me would mean you'd also sense/know how someone would respond to x, y, or z. So you know that your saying one thing could easily cause them to clam up.

    I still think walls don't inherently mean anything. They mean you can't go further, that does not mean it is implicitly guarding something, or that something more is behind it.
    I think there are a huge number of reasons for why a person might put up a 'wall', or at the very least, have no interest in being more forthcoming. It's definitely not just because a sensitive spot was touched.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  7. #67
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Start one what? (I love ENFPs so much I just had to say it).


    EDIT - Writing that bit about loving ENFPs may have made it seem like I understood what you were saying @Qlip...but I didn't. That first part is a serious question. I have no idea what you are talking about.
    I kind of like the abiguity of the floating answer. But by one, I meant start a relationship.

  8. #68
    Anew Leaf
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    I was told that my insights serve me well but to be careful for they could be made to serve the emperor.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by momental View Post
    I still think walls don't inherently mean anything. They mean you can't go further, that does not mean it is implicitly guarding something, or that something more is behind it.
    Walls are a protection mechanism. It means there could be more, but there also could be nothing.

    Imagine someone building a crappy looking wall to give the impression that inside has nothing to really protect. Also imagine someone spending all there money on this fancy wall just for image, yet they have nothing really behind it. You also have those that build a wall to match what is behind it because they value the entire package.

    Walls are meant to protect, it says nothing about what is being protected.
    Im out, its been fun

  10. #70
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    I realize I actually have a serious answer for this thread.

    I think there are several things that can "scare people" with me. The first is how easily people find it to open up to me. The second has to do with how easily I can see into someone's inner realm.

    The first one is partly by design and mainly be default. I don't like defining myself or anyone else. I don't like pushing people to open up to me. On rare occasions I may prod gently at someone with an insistence that I am available as a listener to their problems. Usually in cases like that, my concern for their wellbeing trumps my desire to not be pushy.

    The second I tend to curb for the most part. Just because I see something in someone doesn't mean I am going to tell them. For one, the first rule in anything is never show your cards, and for second, I could be wrong and need more information to draw a definitive conclusion.

    This is just me. I don't believe that just because I have the NF card that that automatically makes me a great reader of humanity's emotions. I think every type has it's own insight potential. This is simply how I operate under the flag of "bunE".

    Suffice to say, just because I don't let you know that I have you figured out... doesn't mean I don't.

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