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  1. #91
    A Gentle Whisper ~MS*ANGEL~'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I understand what you are saying...but what you describe is different to me. There's a big difference in my mind between 'right for me' and 'so right - it's right for everyone'.
    Okay. Thanks for clarifying, I was rather confused at first to be honest!
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  2. #92
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    ...in which case, how do you negotiate at all?
    hmmm, that might be part of the point right there.

    I don't think about interactions with people in terms of negotiations or motivations. It's more about authenticity and acceptance.

    Each person gets to have their own subjective reality, bounded by some kind of universal values that we share as "humanity". My goal is, in forming friendships, to be as real and genuine as possible.

    So, if you come into my world but you insist on forcing me through your lens, it's pushing against my reality boundary, against authenticity. Because if I "get real" with you and you can't see me clear, well, there's little other choice but to shut you out.

    I do find INFJ's in particular can want to translate my words into something more than what they are. But basically, what I say is what I mean and what I am. My value of honesty demands it. I'm not the most articulate in such situations, but I will always try at least to be real.


    (P.S. You could argue there is no such thing as "universal values", but I generally find Fi doms & auxs perceive a difference between their own value set and those that seem to be of a higher nature, forming a kind of objective morality.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    When negotiating I'm seeking 'openness'...which includes an openness to the possibility that you may not know all that you think you know.
    Yes, I like this and agree.


    (P.P.S. I should add, and I shared this earlier with Starry, if you delivered a bulls-eye insight on me, man I might not like it, but I would not shut you out because you were right, it would be damn impressive. Even if I totally hated what you had to say.)
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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  3. #93
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I don't think about interactions with people in terms of negotiations or motivations. It's more about authenticity and acceptance.

    Each person gets to have their own subjective reality, bounded by some kind of universal values that we share as "humanity". My goal is, in forming friendships, to be as real and genuine as possible.
    I can definitely identify with this, at least with friendships and actual relationships. And with those friendships, I don't know how I could call it a true friendship if I wasn't as real/genuine as possible, and they didn't feel free to be the same.

    I suppose I could do the negotiation / navigation thing in the work environment, though, and can be pretty skilled at it I think, although I also desire total honesty at the same time. But I'm not entirely clear on what @the state i am in means by 'negotiation', as he may mean something quite different depending on the situation or relationship.



    I do find INFJ's in particular can want to translate my words into something more than what they are.
    I'm probably guilty of this sometimes, though!!
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  4. #94
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    I take negotiation simply to mean communication until both people can agree to one story about the experience going on between them, and I *think* Starry is referring to when one person unilaterally decides what that ‘story’ is and won’t listen to anything else. If/when conflict comes up with someone important to me, I do consider finding resolution to that a ‘negotiation’ of sorts. Being authentic isn’t always enough to get along with others- even if both people are being authentic. I don’t trust authenticity alone because it can be irrational- a person can misunderstand a situation, maintain a disrespectful position and still be authentic. It’s exchanges such as “You said ‘this’- but then you did ‘that’, which is contrary to ‘this’- so help me understand how both can be true, if that’s the case”, though, which help me get back onto the same page with someone…..or not. If I keep getting answers which seem to just be blowing smoke over something or means of distraction, then ‘consensus’ is not reached. [ eta: Sometimes I’m the one blowing smoke and mirrors, without even realizing it, in which case I’m the one preventing ‘consensus’. I don’t mean to sound like ‘consensus’ is always reached when the other person is being reasonable. We all do the best we can- this is what I mean when I say authenticity is not enough, imo- and sometimes our own issues/attachments prevent us from being able to understand someone else’s pov adequately enough, regardless of how genuine we are. ]

    I can see how maybe ‘negotiation’ or ‘consensus’ may seem too sterile, and may be causing some misunderstanding here, but I *think*- if I’m right about Starry referring to the tendency for one person to unilaterally come to some conclusion and stick to it (and they are not open to any other story than the one that immediately popped into their own head.....and FJs can be champions in this regard)- ‘consensus’ simply means that both people feel respected and heard at the end of ‘negotiation’ (aka: dialogue).

    [state can correct me if I’m misunderstanding him, but I don’t think I am. eta: 'Dialogue' should produce a 'synthesis' of both sides, and one which is agreeable to both sides = 'consensus'. Sometimes authenticity alone is not enough for this (and this has nothing to do with state's post, it's my own interjection). I guess at least as I perceive 'authenticity', which is to say someone is being authentic to the best of their ability. ]
    Last edited by Z Buck McFate; 09-25-2012 at 08:43 AM. Reason: clarifying!
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  5. #95
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Sorry...I should have clarified yesterday that I was, in fact, the individual that brought-up the whole 'negotiation' thing by writing this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Someone totally awesome View Post
    Whether the OP is right or wrong with regards to her insights does not appear open to negotiation <--- which again, is the ONLY reason I would put up a wall.
    I actually use the word 'exchange' further-up in that post. ^^^But what I meant there was...

    The OP has a challenge in where individuals are distancing themselves from her. The process that seems extremely foreign to me...even somewhat 'dangerous' if you will (I'll try to see if I can even explain why I feel it is dangerous here in a bit)...is she has also determined exactly why this is happening...that being...'people are uncomfortable with her *seeing* abilities and the level of access she has into their mental-inner workings.' <--- Now even if I thought that that was what was going on (which I don't and is why I subsequently contributed my experience)...it wouldn't occur to me to think that that was what was occurring in 100% of the 'putting-up walls' cases.

    The reason I used the word 'negotiation' (which I explained for me means 'openness' and I like Z Buck's description as well - 'dialogue')...is because it is presented in a very closed/decided way. 'This is what is happening and this is why' - no other possibilities. Which is a difficult thing for my mind to grasp. And when I asked the OP how she knew this was, in fact, what was occurring she did not respond which may have been merely because she missed my post. Peacebaby and I *think* a few others asked for examples...and those were not provided either. But in my mind...unless a large portion of the individuals that distanced themselves from her returned later and said 'I distanced myself from you because I was uncomfortable with how you were able to see into my mental-inner workings' (or whatever)...then it is difficult for me to understand how you can come to that conclusion (like it was solid). And it further concerns me because the 'this is exactly what is happening' reason that is provided...almost seems to relinquish the OP from responsibility within the interpersonal interactions you know? I mean, in a way it is similiar to 'People hate me because I'm beautiful.' It's like...it's not because I'm an asshole or a 'know-it-all' or controlling or smell bad...it's (only) because people can't handle this special quality I have.

    Anyway...I can see how that level of confidence can start to lead you down the wrong path...where you can't ever get the real issue addressed. And I'm assuming that level of confidence spills over into other areas as well <--- which may be why people close themselves off.

  6. #96
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Peacebaby basically stated a similiar thing...but I would NEVER put up a wall with someone that was 'gettin it right' (that were correct in their insights and subsequent assertions concerning me). And I don't give a rip about 'timing' or 'over-familiarity' or 'bluntness' or 'the appropriate level of discretion a certain social situation assumes' blah, blah, blah. <--- I mean, I have lived long enough to know that many people do take those things into consideration - but when it comes to me I just do not care.
    I would do it in an instant, if the person were getting into territory that I considered none of their business. I might file the information for later consideration if it seemed to have any accuracy, but there would be no further communication on the matter with the other person. I might do this to a lesser extent if the offering of insights seemed somehow misplaced - wrong time or circumstances, irrelevant to matter at hand, etc. In these cases, though, I would probably give an explicit explanation, and be willing to revisit the conversation later.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #97
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I would do it in an instant, if the person were getting into territory that I considered none of their business. I might file the information for later consideration if it seemed to have any accuracy, but there would be no further communication on the matter with the other person. I might do this to a lesser extent if the offering of insights seemed somehow misplaced - wrong time or circumstances, irrelevant to matter at hand, etc. In these cases, though, I would probably give an explicit explanation, and be willing to revisit the conversation later.
    I'm not exactly sure what you are saying here so I want an opportunity to clarify.

    What you bolded from my post...
    Saying to another individual that has just shared an insight (about me) with me...'whoa...that is intense. I need some time to process that and possibly return to it at a later date' =/= (does NOT equal) putting-up a wall. Are you saying that it does for you?

  8. #98
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I'm not exactly sure what you are saying here so I want an opportunity to clarify.

    What you bolded from my post...
    Saying to another individual that has just shared an insight (about me) with me...'whoa...that is intense. I need some time to process that and possibly return to it at a latter date' =/= (does NOT equal) putting-up a wall. Are you saying that it does for you?
    I meant more of pointing out to someone that they chose an inopportune time/place to share their insights, whether accurate or not. This is a wall, in that it is firm, instant, and not to be crossed, but it is temporary, unless the person persists. And yes, this is different from the more absolute wall that comes when someone gets into areas that are not their business. Asking for more time to consider and process is not a wall at all, since I would do at least some processing and careful listening right away, and neither shut the person down nor ask them to defer sharing the information.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #99
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I meant more of pointing out to someone that they chose an inopportune time/place to share their insights, whether accurate or not. This is a wall, in that it is firm, instant, and not to be crossed, but it is temporary, unless the person persists. And yes, this is different from the more absolute wall that comes when someone gets into areas that are not their business. Asking for more time to consider and process is not a wall at all, since I would do at least some processing and careful listening right away, and neither shut the person down nor ask them to defer sharing the information.
    Okay. Sorry I guess I'm not understanding why you quoted me then as I was merely sharing what my personal reaction would be...yet have already acknowledged the bolded (that people will respond in a way that is represented in what I bolded) more than once I believe in this thread. Maybe you were just identifying yourself as one of those individuals??? *nervous confused laughter* haha.

  10. #100
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Okay. Sorry I guess I'm not understanding why you quoted me then as I was merely sharing what my personal reaction would be...yet have already acknowledged the bolded (that people will respond in a way that is represented in what I bolded) more than once I believe in this thread. Maybe you were just identifying yourself as one of those individuals??? *nervous confused laughter* haha.
    My comment was meant to contrast my reaction with yours, and to provide at least one reason why someone might put up a wall when someone else provides personal insights that are accurate. The first sentence of my original comment was the main point.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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