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[MBTI General] How do you get along with the SJs?

nolla

Senor Membrane
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
3,166
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INFP
I find it very hard to have any kind of meaningful relationship of any kind with SJs. I can joke with them usually, or talk about some stuff I am not interested in (like sports), but that's about it. I never make friends with SJs but I have some in the family so I would like to know how to deal with them or help them when they need it. It seems impossible to tell them to take care of themselves while they go on about "Duty, work, money, responsibility" and so on...
 

proteanmix

Plumage and Moult
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Life must really suck for you. I'll give this thread one star so you can feel better!

Anyways, it's always funny to me when people say The __________

The blacks
The Hispanics
The gays

OK, so I'll look it up.

1. (used, esp. before a noun, with a specifying or particularizing effect, as opposed to the indefinite or generalizing force of the indefinite article a or an): the book you gave me; Come into the house.
2. (used to mark a proper noun, natural phenomenon, ship, building, time, point of the compass, branch of endeavor, or field of study as something well-known or unique): the sun; the Alps; the Queen Elizabeth; the past; the West.
3. (used with or as part of a title): the Duke of Wellington; the Reverend John Smith.
4. (used to mark a noun as indicating the best-known, most approved, most important, most satisfying, etc.): the skiing center of the U.S.; If you're going to work hard, now is the time.
5. (used to mark a noun as being used generically): The dog is a quadruped. I don't know why this strikes me as funny :rofl1:
6. (used in place of a possessive pronoun, to note a part of the body or a personal belonging): He won't be able to play football until the leg mends.
7. (used before adjectives that are used substantively, to note an individual, a class or number of individuals, or an abstract idea): to visit the sick; from the sublime to the ridiculous.
8. (used before a modifying adjective to specify or limit its modifying effect): He took the wrong road and drove miles out of his way.
9. (used to indicate one particular decade of a lifetime or of a century): the sixties; the gay nineties.
10. (one of many of a class or type, as of a manufactured item, as opposed to an individual one): Did you listen to the radio last night?
11. enough: He saved until he had the money for a new car. She didn't have the courage to leave.
12. (used distributively, to note any one separately) for, to, or in each; a or an: at one dollar the pound.

I didn't do so great in grammar so which one of these would the SJs fall under?
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
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50,145
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BELF
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sx/sp
PM for teh win!





... SJs are people. Just like everyone else. The specifics of how to relate to them depend on the specifics of who they are.

But if you sense someone regardless of type values responsibility and has a strong work ethic, doesn't it make sense to accommodate that?

I've found that people who work hard can also be alot of fun, once the time for work has passed. You just have to get your work done before distracting yourself and them with too much play.
 

nozflubber

DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
2,078
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Hype
That there "the SJ" just took a dump in your thread, son. I didn't know protean had it in her!
 

Lookin4theBestNU

New member
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Apr 23, 2007
Messages
801
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ENFj
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2w3
Hi Nolla! Welcome to the forums:hug:. Sensing Judgers often have a way of getting under my skin if they are attempting to "correct me" which seems to happen more often then I would like! I personally get along with most of them fine though admittedly the extroverted ones take an extra bit of patience :). I grew up in a family of SJs and eventually rebelled. I have now come to not only respect but enjoy SJs! My best friend is an ISTJ and rarely have I ever made such a strong connection with a person. I use mbti/typing people more as a way to understand where someone is coming from. SJs (like any type certainly including the ENFJs :yes:) can bother others of a different make. I generally find that even if I disagree with their value system it's sturdy which to me is commendable! I hope you find some SJs you respect, accept and can learn from like I did. Once again welcome:hi:!
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
6,704
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ENFJ
I can definitely respect SJs but I don't usually get along with them in close quarters.

I do agree that it's very difficult to get an SJ to take care of themselves -- as in, they need time for themselves, to do things for themselves sometimes, but they won't. And it's impossible to convince them that they need this, too.
 

arcticangel02

To the top of the world
Joined
Oct 5, 2007
Messages
892
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eNFP
Personally, some of my closest friends are ISTJs and ESFJs. They're great, reliable people who really help bring me back down to earth and help me be a bit sensible. :p

And they're really loyal and helpful, so I always know I can depend on them when I need to. :nice:
 

nolla

Senor Membrane
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
3,166
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INFP
Life must really suck for you. I'll give this thread one star so you can feel better!

Anyways, it's always funny to me when people say The __________

The blacks
The Hispanics
The gays

Oh, come on. Now I'm a Hitler for saying that I do not know how to get along with a certain type of people...? I am maybe the least prejudiced person in the world. I just find it useful to use the type as a group of characters to "define" people in a conversation. Yes, I know it is a stereotype, but hey, the mbti was made to put people in different boxes. I was not saying that SJs are bad in any way, I was saying that me being NF makes it difficult for me to understand them. Sure, I used a bit provocative style, but I did only mean that from my subjective point of view the SJs seem like this. They would say the opposite claims about me. "Lazy, irresponsible, bum..." so on. I see no problem to use the types as stereotypes this way.

I generally find that even if I disagree with their value system it's sturdy which to me is commendable!

Well, for me the value clashes end up me walking away angry because I can't get my point across. Is it true that their values never change?

Personally, some of my closest friends are ISTJs and ESFJs. They're great, reliable people who really help bring me back down to earth and help me be a bit sensible. :p

And they're really loyal and helpful, so I always know I can depend on them when I need to. :nice:

Yeah, you sure are right about the loyalty, but there's a twist in there for me. I know I could trust my life in their hands, but not my heart.
 

MetalWounds

More human than human
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Messages
678
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TP
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9w8
7. (used before adjectives that are used substantively, to note an individual, a class or number of individuals, or an abstract idea): to visit the sick; from the sublime to the ridiculous.

I don't see how there's any problem with "The SJs".
 

Lookin4theBestNU

New member
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
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ENFj
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Nolla said:
Well, for me the value clashes end up me walking away angry because I can't get my point across. Is it true that their values never change?
I've neither heard nor read that anywhere and wouldn't use the word never in any case. SJs grow and mature like anyone. I would say that if your encounters with an entire temperament usually ends up with you getting angry perhaps examining your own behavior would be worthwhile. Keirsey discusses Pygmalion Projects in his book to great length which your issue with "getting your point across" could fall into that. MBTI wasn't originally designed to put people in boxes however it is often used that way which I suppose is a natural human inclination. In my own way I am even guilty of that.
 

proteanmix

Plumage and Moult
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Oh, come on. Now I'm a Hitler for saying that I do not know how to get along with a certain type of people...? I am maybe the least prejudiced person in the world. I just find it useful to use the type as a group of characters to "define" people in a conversation. Yes, I know it is a stereotype, but hey, the mbti was made to put people in different boxes. I was not saying that SJs are bad in any way, I was saying that me being NF makes it difficult for me to understand them. Sure, I used a bit provocative style, but I did only mean that from my subjective point of view the SJs seem like this. They would say the opposite claims about me. "Lazy, irresponsible, bum..." so on. I see no problem to use the types as stereotypes this way.

Well if you would like for people to be more helpful you need to help us a little. Could you tell us more about the person/people in question? SJs aren't a monolithic group. When you say they don't talk about things you're interested in have you tried bringing up topics you're interested in and seeing if anyone takes the bait? Sports and other general interest topics tend to be broad and safe enough that many people feel comfortable talking about them to grease the social wheel. Sometimes people feel more comfortable talking about heavier subjects in smaller groups or once they've known you for a while.

For example, most people I know don't give a flying fug about MBTI and since I know this I limit my conversation about it or I talk about it with people I know are more amenable to topics like this. I don't get mad at them for not being interested because everybody has there own interests just as you have yours. Honestly if somebody came at me talking about MMORPGs, I doubt I'd have much interest. Are you interests particularly esoteric? If so, you may want to find a group of people with whom you can talk about these things with since most people probably won't know about it.

Have you tried discovering what interests the SJs in your life have? You may find something out about them you never knew before and that could lead to mutual understanding. You said in your OP that you have problems creating a meaningful relationships with SJs. May I ask how old you are because you sound kind of young. Are you referring to SJs that are your peers or older SJs? What do you consider a meaningful relationship?

Yeah, you sure are right about the loyalty, but there's a twist in there for me. I know I could trust my life in their hands, but not my heart.

Can they trust you with their hearts? Notice how I'm flipping all these questions back on you. I'm doing this because I wonder if you've extended the same desire to understand the SJs you know as you want them to extend to you. If you've done all this and still no results or positive changes then I don't know if what I've said will be of any help to you. I'm suggesting that you start small and work your way up to something meatier. Sometimes I feel like when people talk about SJs (and sensors in general) they act like they have simple desires and so much easier to figure out than intuitives. Most behavior that you ascribe to a traditional SJ mindset stems from some place deeper. Maybe a particular SJ gets their sense of identity from their job or some other responsibility that they take seriously. I wouldn't just brush off any conversation they have about duties and responsibilities because it seems insignificant to you. You may be getting a big flashing neon arrow to the path of a more meaningful relationship.

I saw this a while ago satirizing the differences male and female sex drives and I think it's applicable here as well.

Sensors
LightSwitch.jpg


Intuitives
AutoStop2.GIF
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
Joined
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Messages
6,704
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ENFJ
Can they trust you with their hearts? Notice how I'm flipping all these questions back on you. I'm doing this because I wonder if you've extended the same desire to understand the SJs you know as you want them to extend to you. If you've done all this and still no results or positive changes then I don't know if what I've said will be of any help to you. I'm suggesting that you start small and work your way up to something meatier. Sometimes I feel like when people talk about SJs (and sensors in general) they act like they have simple desires and so much easier to figure out than intuitives. Most behavior that you ascribe to a traditional SJ mindset stems from some place deeper. Maybe a particular SJ gets their sense of identity from their job or some other responsibility that they take seriously. I wouldn't just brush off any conversation they have about duties and responsibilities because it seems insignificant to you. You may be getting a big flashing neon arrow to the path of a more meaningful relationship.

I saw this a while ago satirizing the differences male and female sex drives and I think it's applicable here as well.

Sensors
LightSwitch.jpg


Intuitives
AutoStop2.GIF

Wow, something me and PM actually agree with. It's a sign of the apocalypse!

It's nice to know at least someone has some idea of what they're doing. However, up close and in person, they tend to push all my buttons. And in turn, they tend to think I'm dull and slow. There's a difference between respecting the worth ethic and being able to stand them in close quarters.
 

Leysing

New member
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Mar 21, 2008
Messages
309
MBTI Type
FiSi
My parents are strong SJs (father ISTJ, mother ESFJ). And I'm an INFP.

Sometimes I feel really imprisoned. My parents have very strict and conservative rules and values and they're constantly trying to make me adhere to them. Sometimes I feel like they consider me to be an evil person if I just don't happen to believe that something should be done the exactly same way it's been done the past hundred years. They want to keep our home always very neat and tidy... My P isn't really happy about that.

My ISFP sister always adheres to their rules, though reluctantly. But I have always been rebellious and anti-authority, so I'm the rebel, the black sheep of the family.

"IS IT ALWAYS SO HARD TO DO WHAT I SAY?!"
Come on, I'm trying.

I can't discuss with my family about deeper issues. My mother believes she's a deep person and she tries really hard to think deeply but, well, her thoughts always remain kind of shallow. But I appreciate her efforts. The other family members always live in the here and now. They don't understand my dreamy and aspirational nature, they accept it, but they don't understand. I'm the only iNtuitive in the family, which makes the situation even worse.

After all, my parents and my sister are really kind and good people. My parents have the good sides of the SJ personality: practicality, common sense, reliability and so on. If I would get the change, I still would never change my family. Never.

But, well, yes... Tunnen tuskasi ;)

I recommend trying to be practical, straightforward and here-and-now.

And help them relax, they don't always know how to do it, but Ps definitely do. Grab them by their shoulders and very firmly but in a friendly way say "STOP. RELAX. YOU NEED IT.". I have sometimes saved both my mother and my father from practically burning out by doing this.

Leave topics you and the SJ have different opinions and values on alone. Discussing them is like throwing gasoline into fire or trying to dig through a concrete wall using a teaspoon.

SJs are very good and nice people, they're definitely the most reliable people out there. My best friend, actually, is an ISFJ and we, in a way, act as complements to each other. I help her to relax and she reminds and sometimes even forces me to do the things I have to do. She's intelligent and we have very good conversations partly because of our quite different viewing angles.

Don't judge them too hard. SJs are people, too. And they are good people.

(After all, I must admit that I probably would not get into any relationship more than friendship with an SJ. SJs would be raw poison to my NP yearn of freedom, anti-authority and sloppiness...)
 

Randomnity

insert random title here
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May 8, 2007
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9,485
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sp/sx
EDIT: oh oops, I so didn't see this was in the NF forum. I'll leave it, but disclaimer, I'm obviously not NF. :D

I know an ESFJ who drives me crazy (has hissy fits at the drop of a hat, everything has to be done his way, because otherwise it's "showing disrespect").

I know an ISTJ who makes no sense to me in anything she does, but we can be friendly, though probably not friends.

I know an ESFJ who's friends with me, and we talk about stuff and hang out, but I hate organizing things with her because she has weird ideas that she gets remarkably attached to.

I think that's all the SJs I know reasonably well, so draw whatever conclusion you want to from that. I'm not really good friends with any SJs, and I've never been attracted to an SJ type before, but that might just reflect the fact that I don't meet many new people, and connect with few of those.
 

Leysing

New member
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Messages
309
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FiSi
I know an ESFJ who drives me crazy (has hissy fits at the drop of a hat, everything has to be done his way, because otherwise it's "showing disrespect").

I know an ESFJ who's friends with me, and we talk about stuff and hang out, but I hate organizing things with her because she has weird ideas that she gets remarkably attached to.

This sounds quite exactly like my mother. Especially the first one. :D

She thinks cooperation is adhering to what she says, literally. And we practically have to tiptoe all the time because she is like a barrel of gunpowder.

Imagine travelling abroad with her.
 

cascadeco

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Honestly, it comes down to individuals in the end. It's true that my really close friends are all NF's and NT's, but I am pretty darn close to one of my ISFJ coworkers, and share everything with her that I share with my other friends, and she is just as insightful as the NF's, and in some ways more so. I consider her a very wise woman. I have a few other SJ coworkers as well, and while I can't say we have a lot in common, interest-wise, they are good people and I don't have any problems with them at all. In college I hung out with an ISTJ quite a bit, and another friend of mine was an ESTJ (either that or a borderline xSTJ), and she could be a LOT of fun (when she allowed herself to let loose ;-).

I find there are individuals of EVERY personality type I like, and ones I dislike. So for me I tend to think the personality type doesn't matter a whole lot - it boils down to who the person is and what they're all about. There are NF's and NT's who I really cannot stand, as far as their character traits go. And there are SP's and SJ's who I think are delightful, interesting people. And yeah, ones who aren't. Also, you have to take into account the maturity factor, and all of the gradations within a type. So I think that's where generalities become kinda unhelpful.

As for how to get along with SJ's, I don't know. Really, I don't. I don't approach people as: 'This person is of this temperament. Thus, I need to approach them a certain way.' I approach people as people. See what makes them tick. What is important to them? What stresses them out? Just try to learn about the other person - just as you'd probably appreciate others trying to understand you and how you approach the world, and what you like and dislike. And if you can't make any sort of connection with the said individual, then, you can't. Nothing wrong with that. And, it's not like I desire to be close to everyone I meet, nor do I expect everyone to like and get along with me. Same would be true for you, or for anyone, really.
 

nolla

Senor Membrane
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3,166
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I've neither heard nor read that anywhere and wouldn't use the word never in any case. SJs grow and mature like anyone. I would say that if your encounters with an entire temperament usually ends up with you getting angry perhaps examining your own behavior would be worthwhile. Keirsey discusses Pygmalion Projects in his book to great length which your issue with "getting your point across" could fall into that. MBTI wasn't originally designed to put people in boxes however it is often used that way which I suppose is a natural human inclination. In my own way I am even guilty of that.

Im didn't mean it like they never change, I meant they never can be persuaded that anyone else could have figured out a better value system than theirs. It is quite possible to turn me into a believer of some values that I didn't approve on first glance. But they seem like rocks with their values. Usually it isn't that bad, but sometimes their values sharply disagree with mine. Thats when it gets difficult.

Me getting angry means basically that I try to stand my ground for a while, decide that any more words will be futile and just leave at any appropriate moment. It isnt like banging doors or anything...

Ive got please understand me 2 coming in the mail as we speak :) Waiting forward...

Well if you would like for people to be more helpful you need to help us a little. Could you tell us more about the person/people in question? SJs aren't a monolithic group. When you say they don't talk about things you're interested in have you tried bringing up topics you're interested in and seeing if anyone takes the bait?

Well.. The main focus for me is my brother and my father. I haven't lived in my hometown for many years so it isn't like life and death situation since we all have our own little lives now. But still, the things I've wanted to improve have been there for since I was kid, but now that I found MBTI, I think I might actually be able to do something about them. See, there are some cases when I would have wanted to get involved in their problems ad help them out. Lets say anger management... I have had my share of depression so I could have something valuable knowledge about their problems as well. But...

...the catch is that they just don't want to talk about their emotions, they are uncomfortable hearing me talking about emotions. So I haven't tried that for a while. I'm almost out of connection with my father, as he is so shut up (either angry or completely without emotions for a decade now. very rarely smiles). Mostly we talk about when am I going to graduate and how will I get a job. Then silence. My brother's not so bad. He and I grew up together so, there is obviously mutual understanding at least. But with him I always feel that I have to be careful not to hurt him. That's weird, but that's the vibrations I get from him.

This isn't something dramatic I'm talking about here. It's more like a subtle void that is ever present with us. My other brother, my mother and I have this warmth between the lines when we are talking. Not with the SJ-side of the family.

Have you tried discovering what interests the SJs in your life have? You may find something out about them you never knew before and that could lead to mutual understanding. You said in your OP that you have problems creating a meaningful relationships with SJs. May I ask how old you are because you sound kind of young. Are you referring to SJs that are your peers or older SJs? What do you consider a meaningful relationship?

:) No, this isn't a teenager writing. Might be the language I use? English isn't my mother's language. I learned most on forums like this. I actually thought that you are quite young by the tone on your first reply.

The meaningful relationship with my (also adult) brother and father would be something that doesn't feel so shallow as it does now. We never talk about anything that matters in our lives. I guess it's some kind of code that we all just follow. But I have noticed the same with other SJs. It could be, of course, that I apply the same code with the new acquaintances.

Can they trust you with their hearts? Notice how I'm flipping all these questions back on you. I'm doing this because I wonder if you've extended the same desire to understand the SJs you know as you want them to extend to you. If you've done all this and still no results or positive changes then I don't know if what I've said will be of any help to you.

As far as I can tell, they want no support from anyone. They find it shameful to admit not being able to cope. And that's how they cope, just barely, doing their duties and hurting themselves in the process.


Sometimes I feel like when people talk about SJs (and sensors in general) they act like they have simple desires and so much easier to figure out than intuitives. Most behavior that you ascribe to a traditional SJ mindset stems from some place deeper. Maybe a particular SJ gets their sense of identity from their job or some other responsibility that they take seriously. I wouldn't just brush off any conversation they have about duties and responsibilities because it seems insignificant to you. You may be getting a big flashing neon arrow to the path of a more meaningful relationship.

No, I don't find them easier. I can't always read them. They obviously have the same emotions as the rest of us, but they are somehow so self-contained that I don't see through them.

Leysing said:
Sometimes I feel really imprisoned. My parents have very strict and conservative rules and values and they're constantly trying to make me adhere to them. Sometimes I feel like they consider me to be an evil person if I just don't happen to believe that something should be done the exactly same way it's been done the past hundred years. They want to keep our home always very neat and tidy... My P isn't really happy about that.

Yeah, sounds quite familiar. Luckily my mother is NF...


Leysing said:
Leave topics you and the SJ have different opinions and values on alone. Discussing them is like throwing gasoline into fire or trying to dig through a concrete wall using a teaspoon.

Exactly right with the tea spoon. My way of argumentation is to try to prove them wrong while considering what they say and to make counter-arguments, but their way is to repeat the punch line all over again in slightly different form. I will get tired of it eventually.

But, you are right about them being good people. I do see that they mean good by all the things they do, even if those things annoy me.
 

entropie

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SJ are the leaders of society. What else is there to be thought of ? :)
 

nolla

Senor Membrane
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
3,166
MBTI Type
INFP
And if you can't make any sort of connection with the said individual, then, you can't. Nothing wrong with that. And, it's not like I desire to be close to everyone I meet, nor do I expect everyone to like and get along with me. Same would be true for you, or for anyone, really.

Mostly I don't care about someone not liking me or me not liking someone, but this is family stuff so I find it more important. Well, maybe it is the idealist in me thinking that family should stay close and help each other out.
 
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