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  1. #21
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    How do you get along with the SJ's:
    ESFJ's - fine
    ISFJ's - fine
    ISTJ's - fine
    ESTJ's - not so fine (meaning that there are some that I get along with and some that I don't get along with but that is the case with most people anyway - SJ or no SJ. )

  2. #22
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    ESTJ: great
    ISTJ: great - the best of all S types
    ESFJ: frustrating but i can respect it
    ISFJ: either love or hate
    ESFP: great
    ESTP: great
    ISFP: frustrating
    ISTP: hard to "click" but respect them
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  3. #23
    Free-Rangin' Librarian Jae Rae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    ESTJ: great
    ISTJ: great - the best of all S types
    ESFJ: frustrating but i can respect it
    ISFJ: either love or hate
    ESFP: great
    ESTP: great
    ISFP: frustrating
    ISTP: hard to "click" but respect them
    You forgot the NT SJs.
    Proud Female Rider in Maverick's Bike Club.

  4. #24
    Free-Rangin' Librarian Jae Rae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Im didn't mean it like they never change, I meant they never can be persuaded that anyone else could have figured out a better value system than theirs. It is quite possible to turn me into a believer of some values that I didn't approve on first glance. But they seem like rocks with their values. Usually it isn't that bad, but sometimes their values sharply disagree with mine. Thats when it gets difficult...

    Well.. The main focus for me is my brother and my father. I haven't lived in my hometown for many years so it isn't like life and death situation since we all have our own little lives now. But still, the things I've wanted to improve have been there for since I was kid, but now that I found MBTI, I think I might actually be able to do something about them. See, there are some cases when I would have wanted to get involved in their problems ad help them out. Lets say anger management... I have had my share of depression so I could have something valuable knowledge about their problems as well. But...

    ...the catch is that they just don't want to talk about their emotions, they are uncomfortable hearing me talking about emotions. So I haven't tried that for a while. I'm almost out of connection with my father, as he is so shut up (either angry or completely without emotions for a decade now. very rarely smiles). Mostly we talk about when am I going to graduate and how will I get a job. Then silence. My brother's not so bad. He and I grew up together so, there is obviously mutual understanding at least. But with him I always feel that I have to be careful not to hurt him. That's weird, but that's the vibrations I get from him.

    This isn't something dramatic I'm talking about here. It's more like a subtle void that is ever present with us. My other brother, my mother and I have this warmth between the lines when we are talking. Not with the SJ-side of the family.

    The meaningful relationship with my (also adult) brother and father would be something that doesn't feel so shallow as it does now. We never talk about anything that matters in our lives. I guess it's some kind of code that we all just follow. But I have noticed the same with other SJs. It could be, of course, that I apply the same code with the new acquaintances.

    As far as I can tell, they want no support from anyone. They find it shameful to admit not being able to cope. And that's how they cope, just barely, doing their duties and hurting themselves in the process.

    No, I don't find them easier. I can't always read them. They obviously have the same emotions as the rest of us, but they are somehow so self-contained that I don't see through them.

    My way of argumentation is to try to prove them wrong while considering what they say and to make counter-arguments, but their way is to repeat the punch line all over again in slightly different form. I will get tired of it eventually.
    I can tell you that my dad was an INTJ and he had exactly the same way of being your dad does. He couldn't connect on an emotional basis.

    You're trying to change your family, esp. your father. As we get older and have more perspective, we learn that you can't change anyone who doesn't want to change. You're the one reading the books who wants to get along better, so start there. Your dad isn't going to do anger management because you want him to do so. Yes, he has a problem and yes, you can choose to walk out quietly when the argument goes nowhere. After awhile I learned I couldn't out-argue or convince my dad, either.
    Proud Female Rider in Maverick's Bike Club.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Leysing's Avatar
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    Btw... You said you want them to change their value systems. Why do you think that your value system is somehow "better" than theirs? I mean... I am an INFP myself, too, but I have never thought of trying to make other people adher to my values. I think you accuse them but then do the exactly same thing yourself. (Ei millään pahalla, mutta kuitenkin.)

  6. #26
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Mostly I don't care about someone not liking me or me not liking someone, but this is family stuff so I find it more important. Well, maybe it is the idealist in me thinking that family should stay close and help each other out.
    I do feel like I understand the whole family disconnect.

    I have never felt I've *really* connected with either my mother or my father. My mom hones in on what I consider very bizarre things/details, which then become the focus of the conversation, which leaves me unable to discuss things that I truly find important. And, we just seem to speak on different wavelengths. We don't naturally just 'click'.

    And then my father and I have never had a real conversation that is longer than maybe 3-5 sentences. Seriously. He is pretty introverted, and I'd say a pretty strong T, and my manner of communication and focus in life just doesn't seem to jive with his.

    This has certainly frustrated me in the past, and I've definitely been bothered by the fact that I'm not close to my parents in the way that I observe some families as being, but....what can you do. We are on good terms, I don't think there's anything negative about the relationship....it just doesn't fulfill all of MY needs, and what I desire out of relationships, and what I find meaningful. But I guess I've ceased to blame them, because truly it has nothing to do with them. They are who they are, I am who I am, and we just don't 'connect' the way I ultimately wish we could. Perhaps some day we will, but for the time being, it is what it is.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  7. #27
    Senor Membrane
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leysing View Post
    Btw... You said you want them to change their value systems. Why do you think that your value system is somehow "better" than theirs? I mean... I am an INFP myself, too, but I have never thought of trying to make other people adher to my values. I think you accuse them but then do the exactly same thing yourself.
    I wouldn't say I am usually trying to make them change their values in purpose. We have arguments only about things that I find disgusting for my value system (because I don't find arguing important if there isn't value violations) I guess the thing is that they have values that are there and they can't justify their values by logical reasons. This is where I try to say that "Hey, those values are NOT reasonable, so they are not something to stick with" Do they listen? No. This is what frustrates me. Sure, you can say that I rate my values higher, but I really think that there are some basic values that should be learned by everyone and that factually ARE higher. Like, respecting all people, not just your own color or class. These are logically and ethically based values. The opposite values are not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jae Rae
    As we get older and have more perspective, we learn that you can't change anyone who doesn't want to change.
    Yeah, I have seen that before with other people. In this case I was hoping that someone had found a common ground using the type indicator...


    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn
    And then my father and I have never had a real conversation that is longer than maybe 3-5 sentences. Seriously. He is pretty introverted, and I'd say a pretty strong T, and my manner of communication and focus in life just doesn't seem to jive with his.

    This has certainly frustrated me in the past, and I've definitely been bothered by the fact that I'm not close to my parents in the way that I observe some families as being, but....what can you do. We are on good terms, I don't think there's anything negative about the relationship....it just doesn't fulfill all of MY needs, and what I desire out of relationships, and what I find meaningful. But I guess I've ceased to blame them, because truly it has nothing to do with them. They are who they are, I am who I am, and we just don't 'connect' the way I ultimately wish we could. Perhaps some day we will, but for the time being, it is what it is.
    This is almost exactly the same as my case. I don't blame them but can't get rid of the feeling that they could be a lot happier if they just opened up a little.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Leysing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    I wouldn't say I am usually trying to make them change their values in purpose. We have arguments only about things that I find disgusting for my value system (because I don't find arguing important if there isn't value violations) I guess the thing is that they have values that are there and they can't justify their values by logical reasons. This is where I try to say that "Hey, those values are NOT reasonable, so they are not something to stick with" Do they listen? No. This is what frustrates me. Sure, you can say that I rate my values higher, but I really think that there are some basic values that should be learned by everyone and that factually ARE higher. Like, respecting all people, not just your own color or class. These are logically and ethically based values. The opposite values are not.
    Oooookay. Now I understand

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