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  1. #11
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Oh, come on. Now I'm a Hitler for saying that I do not know how to get along with a certain type of people...? I am maybe the least prejudiced person in the world. I just find it useful to use the type as a group of characters to "define" people in a conversation. Yes, I know it is a stereotype, but hey, the mbti was made to put people in different boxes. I was not saying that SJs are bad in any way, I was saying that me being NF makes it difficult for me to understand them. Sure, I used a bit provocative style, but I did only mean that from my subjective point of view the SJs seem like this. They would say the opposite claims about me. "Lazy, irresponsible, bum..." so on. I see no problem to use the types as stereotypes this way.
    Well if you would like for people to be more helpful you need to help us a little. Could you tell us more about the person/people in question? SJs aren't a monolithic group. When you say they don't talk about things you're interested in have you tried bringing up topics you're interested in and seeing if anyone takes the bait? Sports and other general interest topics tend to be broad and safe enough that many people feel comfortable talking about them to grease the social wheel. Sometimes people feel more comfortable talking about heavier subjects in smaller groups or once they've known you for a while.

    For example, most people I know don't give a flying fug about MBTI and since I know this I limit my conversation about it or I talk about it with people I know are more amenable to topics like this. I don't get mad at them for not being interested because everybody has there own interests just as you have yours. Honestly if somebody came at me talking about MMORPGs, I doubt I'd have much interest. Are you interests particularly esoteric? If so, you may want to find a group of people with whom you can talk about these things with since most people probably won't know about it.

    Have you tried discovering what interests the SJs in your life have? You may find something out about them you never knew before and that could lead to mutual understanding. You said in your OP that you have problems creating a meaningful relationships with SJs. May I ask how old you are because you sound kind of young. Are you referring to SJs that are your peers or older SJs? What do you consider a meaningful relationship?

    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Yeah, you sure are right about the loyalty, but there's a twist in there for me. I know I could trust my life in their hands, but not my heart.
    Can they trust you with their hearts? Notice how I'm flipping all these questions back on you. I'm doing this because I wonder if you've extended the same desire to understand the SJs you know as you want them to extend to you. If you've done all this and still no results or positive changes then I don't know if what I've said will be of any help to you. I'm suggesting that you start small and work your way up to something meatier. Sometimes I feel like when people talk about SJs (and sensors in general) they act like they have simple desires and so much easier to figure out than intuitives. Most behavior that you ascribe to a traditional SJ mindset stems from some place deeper. Maybe a particular SJ gets their sense of identity from their job or some other responsibility that they take seriously. I wouldn't just brush off any conversation they have about duties and responsibilities because it seems insignificant to you. You may be getting a big flashing neon arrow to the path of a more meaningful relationship.

    I saw this a while ago satirizing the differences male and female sex drives and I think it's applicable here as well.

    Sensors


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  2. #12
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Can they trust you with their hearts? Notice how I'm flipping all these questions back on you. I'm doing this because I wonder if you've extended the same desire to understand the SJs you know as you want them to extend to you. If you've done all this and still no results or positive changes then I don't know if what I've said will be of any help to you. I'm suggesting that you start small and work your way up to something meatier. Sometimes I feel like when people talk about SJs (and sensors in general) they act like they have simple desires and so much easier to figure out than intuitives. Most behavior that you ascribe to a traditional SJ mindset stems from some place deeper. Maybe a particular SJ gets their sense of identity from their job or some other responsibility that they take seriously. I wouldn't just brush off any conversation they have about duties and responsibilities because it seems insignificant to you. You may be getting a big flashing neon arrow to the path of a more meaningful relationship.

    I saw this a while ago satirizing the differences male and female sex drives and I think it's applicable here as well.

    Sensors


    Intuitives
    Wow, something me and PM actually agree with. It's a sign of the apocalypse!

    It's nice to know at least someone has some idea of what they're doing. However, up close and in person, they tend to push all my buttons. And in turn, they tend to think I'm dull and slow. There's a difference between respecting the worth ethic and being able to stand them in close quarters.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  3. #13
    Senior Member Leysing's Avatar
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    My parents are strong SJs (father ISTJ, mother ESFJ). And I'm an INFP.

    Sometimes I feel really imprisoned. My parents have very strict and conservative rules and values and they're constantly trying to make me adhere to them. Sometimes I feel like they consider me to be an evil person if I just don't happen to believe that something should be done the exactly same way it's been done the past hundred years. They want to keep our home always very neat and tidy... My P isn't really happy about that.

    My ISFP sister always adheres to their rules, though reluctantly. But I have always been rebellious and anti-authority, so I'm the rebel, the black sheep of the family.

    "IS IT ALWAYS SO HARD TO DO WHAT I SAY?!"
    Come on, I'm trying.

    I can't discuss with my family about deeper issues. My mother believes she's a deep person and she tries really hard to think deeply but, well, her thoughts always remain kind of shallow. But I appreciate her efforts. The other family members always live in the here and now. They don't understand my dreamy and aspirational nature, they accept it, but they don't understand. I'm the only iNtuitive in the family, which makes the situation even worse.

    After all, my parents and my sister are really kind and good people. My parents have the good sides of the SJ personality: practicality, common sense, reliability and so on. If I would get the change, I still would never change my family. Never.

    But, well, yes... Tunnen tuskasi

    I recommend trying to be practical, straightforward and here-and-now.

    And help them relax, they don't always know how to do it, but Ps definitely do. Grab them by their shoulders and very firmly but in a friendly way say "STOP. RELAX. YOU NEED IT.". I have sometimes saved both my mother and my father from practically burning out by doing this.

    Leave topics you and the SJ have different opinions and values on alone. Discussing them is like throwing gasoline into fire or trying to dig through a concrete wall using a teaspoon.

    SJs are very good and nice people, they're definitely the most reliable people out there. My best friend, actually, is an ISFJ and we, in a way, act as complements to each other. I help her to relax and she reminds and sometimes even forces me to do the things I have to do. She's intelligent and we have very good conversations partly because of our quite different viewing angles.

    Don't judge them too hard. SJs are people, too. And they are good people.

    (After all, I must admit that I probably would not get into any relationship more than friendship with an SJ. SJs would be raw poison to my NP yearn of freedom, anti-authority and sloppiness...)

  4. #14
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    EDIT: oh oops, I so didn't see this was in the NF forum. I'll leave it, but disclaimer, I'm obviously not NF.

    I know an ESFJ who drives me crazy (has hissy fits at the drop of a hat, everything has to be done his way, because otherwise it's "showing disrespect").

    I know an ISTJ who makes no sense to me in anything she does, but we can be friendly, though probably not friends.

    I know an ESFJ who's friends with me, and we talk about stuff and hang out, but I hate organizing things with her because she has weird ideas that she gets remarkably attached to.

    I think that's all the SJs I know reasonably well, so draw whatever conclusion you want to from that. I'm not really good friends with any SJs, and I've never been attracted to an SJ type before, but that might just reflect the fact that I don't meet many new people, and connect with few of those.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Leysing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I know an ESFJ who drives me crazy (has hissy fits at the drop of a hat, everything has to be done his way, because otherwise it's "showing disrespect").

    I know an ESFJ who's friends with me, and we talk about stuff and hang out, but I hate organizing things with her because she has weird ideas that she gets remarkably attached to.
    This sounds quite exactly like my mother. Especially the first one.

    She thinks cooperation is adhering to what she says, literally. And we practically have to tiptoe all the time because she is like a barrel of gunpowder.

    Imagine travelling abroad with her.

  6. #16
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Honestly, it comes down to individuals in the end. It's true that my really close friends are all NF's and NT's, but I am pretty darn close to one of my ISFJ coworkers, and share everything with her that I share with my other friends, and she is just as insightful as the NF's, and in some ways more so. I consider her a very wise woman. I have a few other SJ coworkers as well, and while I can't say we have a lot in common, interest-wise, they are good people and I don't have any problems with them at all. In college I hung out with an ISTJ quite a bit, and another friend of mine was an ESTJ (either that or a borderline xSTJ), and she could be a LOT of fun (when she allowed herself to let loose ;-).

    I find there are individuals of EVERY personality type I like, and ones I dislike. So for me I tend to think the personality type doesn't matter a whole lot - it boils down to who the person is and what they're all about. There are NF's and NT's who I really cannot stand, as far as their character traits go. And there are SP's and SJ's who I think are delightful, interesting people. And yeah, ones who aren't. Also, you have to take into account the maturity factor, and all of the gradations within a type. So I think that's where generalities become kinda unhelpful.

    As for how to get along with SJ's, I don't know. Really, I don't. I don't approach people as: 'This person is of this temperament. Thus, I need to approach them a certain way.' I approach people as people. See what makes them tick. What is important to them? What stresses them out? Just try to learn about the other person - just as you'd probably appreciate others trying to understand you and how you approach the world, and what you like and dislike. And if you can't make any sort of connection with the said individual, then, you can't. Nothing wrong with that. And, it's not like I desire to be close to everyone I meet, nor do I expect everyone to like and get along with me. Same would be true for you, or for anyone, really.
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lookin4theBestNU View Post
    I've neither heard nor read that anywhere and wouldn't use the word never in any case. SJs grow and mature like anyone. I would say that if your encounters with an entire temperament usually ends up with you getting angry perhaps examining your own behavior would be worthwhile. Keirsey discusses Pygmalion Projects in his book to great length which your issue with "getting your point across" could fall into that. MBTI wasn't originally designed to put people in boxes however it is often used that way which I suppose is a natural human inclination. In my own way I am even guilty of that.
    Im didn't mean it like they never change, I meant they never can be persuaded that anyone else could have figured out a better value system than theirs. It is quite possible to turn me into a believer of some values that I didn't approve on first glance. But they seem like rocks with their values. Usually it isn't that bad, but sometimes their values sharply disagree with mine. Thats when it gets difficult.

    Me getting angry means basically that I try to stand my ground for a while, decide that any more words will be futile and just leave at any appropriate moment. It isnt like banging doors or anything...

    Ive got please understand me 2 coming in the mail as we speak Waiting forward...

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Well if you would like for people to be more helpful you need to help us a little. Could you tell us more about the person/people in question? SJs aren't a monolithic group. When you say they don't talk about things you're interested in have you tried bringing up topics you're interested in and seeing if anyone takes the bait?
    Well.. The main focus for me is my brother and my father. I haven't lived in my hometown for many years so it isn't like life and death situation since we all have our own little lives now. But still, the things I've wanted to improve have been there for since I was kid, but now that I found MBTI, I think I might actually be able to do something about them. See, there are some cases when I would have wanted to get involved in their problems ad help them out. Lets say anger management... I have had my share of depression so I could have something valuable knowledge about their problems as well. But...

    ...the catch is that they just don't want to talk about their emotions, they are uncomfortable hearing me talking about emotions. So I haven't tried that for a while. I'm almost out of connection with my father, as he is so shut up (either angry or completely without emotions for a decade now. very rarely smiles). Mostly we talk about when am I going to graduate and how will I get a job. Then silence. My brother's not so bad. He and I grew up together so, there is obviously mutual understanding at least. But with him I always feel that I have to be careful not to hurt him. That's weird, but that's the vibrations I get from him.

    This isn't something dramatic I'm talking about here. It's more like a subtle void that is ever present with us. My other brother, my mother and I have this warmth between the lines when we are talking. Not with the SJ-side of the family.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Have you tried discovering what interests the SJs in your life have? You may find something out about them you never knew before and that could lead to mutual understanding. You said in your OP that you have problems creating a meaningful relationships with SJs. May I ask how old you are because you sound kind of young. Are you referring to SJs that are your peers or older SJs? What do you consider a meaningful relationship?
    No, this isn't a teenager writing. Might be the language I use? English isn't my mother's language. I learned most on forums like this. I actually thought that you are quite young by the tone on your first reply.

    The meaningful relationship with my (also adult) brother and father would be something that doesn't feel so shallow as it does now. We never talk about anything that matters in our lives. I guess it's some kind of code that we all just follow. But I have noticed the same with other SJs. It could be, of course, that I apply the same code with the new acquaintances.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Can they trust you with their hearts? Notice how I'm flipping all these questions back on you. I'm doing this because I wonder if you've extended the same desire to understand the SJs you know as you want them to extend to you. If you've done all this and still no results or positive changes then I don't know if what I've said will be of any help to you.
    As far as I can tell, they want no support from anyone. They find it shameful to admit not being able to cope. And that's how they cope, just barely, doing their duties and hurting themselves in the process.


    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Sometimes I feel like when people talk about SJs (and sensors in general) they act like they have simple desires and so much easier to figure out than intuitives. Most behavior that you ascribe to a traditional SJ mindset stems from some place deeper. Maybe a particular SJ gets their sense of identity from their job or some other responsibility that they take seriously. I wouldn't just brush off any conversation they have about duties and responsibilities because it seems insignificant to you. You may be getting a big flashing neon arrow to the path of a more meaningful relationship.
    No, I don't find them easier. I can't always read them. They obviously have the same emotions as the rest of us, but they are somehow so self-contained that I don't see through them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leysing
    Sometimes I feel really imprisoned. My parents have very strict and conservative rules and values and they're constantly trying to make me adhere to them. Sometimes I feel like they consider me to be an evil person if I just don't happen to believe that something should be done the exactly same way it's been done the past hundred years. They want to keep our home always very neat and tidy... My P isn't really happy about that.
    Yeah, sounds quite familiar. Luckily my mother is NF...


    Quote Originally Posted by Leysing
    Leave topics you and the SJ have different opinions and values on alone. Discussing them is like throwing gasoline into fire or trying to dig through a concrete wall using a teaspoon.
    Exactly right with the tea spoon. My way of argumentation is to try to prove them wrong while considering what they say and to make counter-arguments, but their way is to repeat the punch line all over again in slightly different form. I will get tired of it eventually.

    But, you are right about them being good people. I do see that they mean good by all the things they do, even if those things annoy me.

  8. #18
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    SJ are the leaders of society. What else is there to be thought of ?
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn View Post
    And if you can't make any sort of connection with the said individual, then, you can't. Nothing wrong with that. And, it's not like I desire to be close to everyone I meet, nor do I expect everyone to like and get along with me. Same would be true for you, or for anyone, really.
    Mostly I don't care about someone not liking me or me not liking someone, but this is family stuff so I find it more important. Well, maybe it is the idealist in me thinking that family should stay close and help each other out.

  10. #20
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    well that is one point
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