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  1. #111
    Senior Member helen's Avatar
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    And this plays itself out time and time again whenever I discuss topics with INTJs. To me it seems they can't grasp the big picture(or rather a wider picture).
    Would you mind sharing what topics exactly you have found frustrating to discuss with INTJs? Cuz I find I can talk about most anything with my INTJ friend, except he seems rather skeptical about the whole concept of psychology (considered as a science), so I sorta avoid discussing that.
    "There ain't no doubt in no one's mind that love's the finest thing around. Whisper something soft and kind." --James Taylor

  2. #112
    Sniffles
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    Yes I guess sniper rifle analogy would be more apt, since they come unexpectedly and out of nowhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I wonder... You know, I've had the opposite experience when arguing with INFJs. They often seem quite pedantic to me.
    Interesting, could you explain this further?

  3. #113
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I don't know if I'd call them assault rifle style questions. More like sniper rifle questions. Usually you only need one or two to bring the whole thing down. Then again, debating for me can become a blood sport...

    I wonder... You know, I've had the opposite experience when arguing with INFJs. They often seem quite pedantic to me.
    And pedantry invites mockery, which the INFJ then calls immaturity!

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by helen View Post
    Would you mind sharing what topics exactly you have found frustrating to discuss with INTJs?
    It could be any subject, but #1 on the list has to be anything related to the existence of God or anything religious-related.


    Cuz I find I can talk about most anything with my INTJ friend, except he seems rather skeptical about the whole concept of psychology (considered as a science), so I sorta avoid discussing that.
    Well yes, I don't mean to imply that all INFJ-INTJ exhanges are purely hostile or whatnot. I've had plenty of friendly and interesting discussions with INTJs before myself.

    I'm just outlining the different approaches of both types which often leads to hostilities or misunderstandings, from my own personal observations and experiences. And I admit I'm a bit hostile to INTJs lately, due to some recent incidents in my life - namely an INTJ girl breaking my heart.

  5. #115
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yes I guess sniper rifle analogy would be more apt, since they come unexpectedly and out of nowhere.

    Interesting, could you explain this further?
    I think it comes from Ti. I know Bluewing's argument that Ti is weak in INFJs, but considering his justification for everything he writes is 'pure typology' as opposed to 'applied typology,' I don't really think we can count that.

    They tend to stick ruthlessly to principles that INTJs like to try to uproot. The idea is that if you destroy the base, the whole thing comes tumbling down, so it looks like the best weak spot for an argument. And INFJs (along with INTPs) really, really hate that.

    I don't know about other INTJs, but I get a thrill out of debate. People who know me well generally think I'm even-tempered and reasonable, at least until there's a debate, and then I tear apart everything they stand for. It's a lot easier to do this online (because, well, online, you don't have to worry about the person's feelings getting so hurt that they'll come and make you regret it later), so I guess I come across as rather vicious. It's all in good fun, really, but people don't understand that.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    They tend to stick ruthlessly to principles that INTJs like to try to uproot. The idea is that if you destroy the base, the whole thing comes tumbling down, so it looks like the best weak spot for an argument. And INFJs (along with INTPs) really, really hate that.
    Yes I do hate that. As for destroying the base, I do that too, but in a different style. To use your term, you guys are far more vicious when doing it.

    Once my opponent is down on the ground, I stop kicking him. You guys keep going at it untill he's literally dead.

  7. #117
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    I've recently had an incident in which defeated Ti didn't want to just lie down peacefully with its hands over its head, but insisted on trying to worm itself out of the deathlock, trying to bend logic etc. So you have to step on it and obliterate it fully. :p Seriously, debates tend to get heated and are probably experienced very differently by Fs. We're not attacking you, we're attacking your theory. A heavy J especially will be in it to win.

    My discussions with INFJs have been of the sort in which their emotions seriously corrupt their reasoning skills, though, so I have no real life examples of that interaction.

    I'm open to every topic and as Ni dominants we are among the most well-positioned to understand the limits of logic.

    INTJs are deep rather than wide, that's true and I can see how a heavy Ti INFJ and an INTJ might accuse one another of the same thing: not understanding what the other is trying to convey, but patience and a willingness to understand can solve this.

    I'd also be cautious about basing your ideas of type too much on BlueWing and basing your assessment of how INTJs view logic on Liason only (nothing personal).

    it seems I can address issues both within logic and outside it
    I think that a typical INTJ is more adept at channelling pure intuition into the debate by means of Te whereas your access to it in the context of the debate is limited since it's got Ti to take into account, so you lose the intensity of either Ni or Ti, but you win the ability to understand both. I'd guess that lacking Te it's sometimes difficult to express your standpoints.

  8. #118
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Once my opponent is down on the ground, I stop kicking him. You guys keep going at it untill he's literally dead.
    I don't believe an argument is dead until I see the beaten, bloody corpse. It's like in superhero movies -- if you don't see the corpse, they're not dead, and will return in the sequel.

    It's nothing personal. Really.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    I've recently had an incident in which defeated Ti didn't want to just lie down peacefully with its hands over its head, but insisted on trying to worm itself out of the deathlock, trying to bend logic etc. So you have to step on it and obliterate it fully. :p
    Yes, with you people it's like "Accept our position or ELSE!"

    And you brow-beat anybody who disagrees with you to submission.


    We're not attacking you, we're attacking your theory.
    Do you know how many times I have tell other people that? LOL.

    The only problem is what I described above, how the INTJ is more analytical in argument, while the INFJ seems more mystical. And trust me, you simply cannot apply analytical tactics to mystical arguments; it's a completely different realm.

    When you INTJs seek to tear arguments apart, to me you engage in what Chesterton called "the fine art of missing the point". You either comprehend the point or you don't; if it's necessary for you to tear it apart, then you really don't grasp the point - you missed it big time.

    I'm open to every topic and as Ni dominants we are among the most well-positioned to understand the limits of logic.
    INTJs maybe positionied to understand the limits of logic, they still cannot going beyond those limits.

    INFJs are open to every topic too.

    INTJs are deep rather than wide, that's true and I can see how a heavy Ti INFJ and an INTJ might accuse one another of the same thing: not understanding what the other is trying to convey, but patience and a willingness to understand can solve this.
    That's basically my main argument: INFJs and INTJs perceive the world in different ways, despite both being dom Ni - it's still used to different ends.


    I'd also be cautious about basing your ideas of type too much on BlueWing.
    My arguments are based mostly upon my own observations. BlueWing's profile mentioned something that corresponds to my own observations. Same thing with Liason.

  10. #120
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Yes, with you people it's like "Accept our position or ELSE!"

    And you brow-beat anybody who disagrees with you to submission.
    I don't understand where this hostility comes from, really, unless you're projecting. The Ti person later admitted to being defeated, he just didn't want to admit it right then, so I had to make sure he'd been fully undermined. It was a matter of his argument being unsound, not his accepting my position. At other times, I'm the one under his foot.

    And what would a mystical argument be?

    if it's necessary for you to tear it apart, then you really don't grasp the point - you missed it big time.
    So if we disagree with your point or find it's not valid and point that out to you...we don't grasp the point...that sounds an aweful lot like what you said of us in the first quote.

    INTJs maybe positionied to understand the limits of logic, they still cannot going beyond those limits.
    Before I address this: what is your conception of going beyond logic in a debate?

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