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  1. #81
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Equating base, mindless animal instinct with human higher consciousness.
    You really don't get the concept of an analogy do you? You see, when I compared INFJs to ships as I did earlier, I was not equating us to sea bearing craft.

    analogy: drawing a comparison in order to show a similarity in some respect

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki
    Analogous objects do not necessarily share a relation, but rather an idea, a pattern, a regularity, an attribute, or an effect.
    In the case of a hare to a human, I am comparing the idea of an ability to adapt with new situations or environments, without changing identity. Whether it is a hare changing its fur in the winter or a human adapting alternative perceptions.

    Does that help? As intelligent as you are, I can't help but wonder if you are just pretending to not understand in order to annoy me. I mean, analogies are one of the simplest literary devices there are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  2. #82
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    Your anaology makes human morality seem as trivial as the changing of fur color in seasons. That's the part that is not valid. It's just a a surface color on the rabbit, not an expression of who and what they are and it is also still rabbit fur.

    Human actions in relation to their values and beliefs is very much tied to who and what they are inside, it is not a trivial thing to bend and flex based on the latest moral fashion. In order to change their morals and values based on the mood of the moment, they have to lie to others and themselves, to be and act what they are not inside.

    In order for your analogy to work, the hare would have willfully to spout feathers and beak to mask itself as bird!

    EDIT: I *got* your analogy, I simply don't see it as valid in this case. Changing moral behavior is not comparable to changing fur color, behavior is not a mere surface trait, our deeds are not surface traits, but an outward expression of our inner beliefs and drives. What good are vague ideas of morality or values if not used to navigate external behavior? They are meaningless if not used as compass for our actions.

  3. #83

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    I have no internal 'roadmap,' only a huge house or endless rooms. My mind shows me things whether I want to know them or not in a very non-linear fashion.

    I get a chance every time I sleep to explore all of this, and I can safely say I can't even imagine having a 'roadmap' in there. The ship sailing through a dark storm is a good enough analogy and my compass shows me the way out the majority of the time.

  4. #84
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Your anaology makes human morality seem as trivial as the changing of fur color in seasons. That's the part that is not valid. It's just a a surface color on the rabbit, not an expression of who and what they are and it is also still rabbit fur.

    Human actions in relation to their values and beliefs is very much tied to who and what they are inside, it is not a trivial thing to bend and flex based on the latest moral fashion. In order to change their morals and values based on the mood of the moment, they have to lie to others and themselves, to be and act what they are not inside.

    In order for your analogy to work, the hare would have willfully to spout feathers and beak to mask itself as bird!

    EDIT: I *got* your analogy, I simply don't see it as valid in this case. Changing moral behavior is not comparable to changing fur color, behavior is not a mere surface trait, our deeds are not surface traits, but an outward expression of our inner beliefs and drives. What good are vague ideas of morality or values if not used to navigate external behavior? They are meaningless if not used as compass for our actions.
    I'm confused... How is behavior not external and therefore on the surface? The way I see behavior is that it's influenced by multiple factors... One is you as a person inside... morality, beliefs and drives... Another is the situation... of the people around you, social constrains placed upon you.

    You can be forced to do something you normally dislike doing... does that change your inner morality because you did something that is inconsistent with who you are? I doubt it...

    Quote Originally Posted by haphazard
    I'm wondering now if INFJs are as capricious as INTJs now. They can be much worse than P types because once they DECIDE that they're finished or that there's nothing more they can do, they leave and move onto the next project without a thought looking back, while a P would most likely go back to tinker.
    Depends on how they view things... but I think both INTJs and INFJs will bounce from project to project as soon as they think they're done with it. In some ways, Ni works exactly like Ne in the ENXPs except it occurs mostly inside our heads. So by comparison, the judging dominant INXPs can seem more consistent.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    You can be forced to do something you normally dislike doing... does that change your inner morality because you did something that is inconsistent with who you are? I doubt it...
    Kiddo was talking about making a conscious choice to change morals to flex with the moral mood of the moment, there was no mention in his post of force. So it would be an outward movement of will on the part of the person, not a exertion of force from the external world as in true brute force.

    The endpoint of the situation you are talking about, well how far do we go in the name of self preservation? Do we engage in evil acts ourselves to save our skin and if so, haven't we crossed a line at that point? It is a really hard question to face, but certainly a very valid one. If we do evil to innocents to save our own necks, we've become evil ourselves. I am talking adults who have reached mental/emotional maturity here, not children. Just to be clear.

  6. #86
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Kiddo was talking about making a conscious choice to change morals to flex with the moral mood of the moment...
    No! NO! NOOOO! :steam:

    I was suggesting that XNFPs can learn to be more tolerant of the moral standards of others by learning to adopt their perceptions, experiences, ideas, etc. (different fur color) within a certain moment, environment, etc. (the changing seasons). I suggested the exact opposite of what you are now suggesting. I argued that people can't make the concious choice to change their moral standards because those are derived from their original perceptions, experiences, values, etc. (the qualities that make a hare a hare) and those things can never be lost.

    You don't change your morals to flex with the moral mood of the moment. You adopt the alternative perception so you can be more tolerant to the other side. If you changed your morals then who the hell would you be? That would be acceptance, not tolerance. That would be like the analogy I made earlier with the hare deciding it can fly. That path could only lead to great pain because there are some qualities that a hare can't change about itself. Likewise, the original experiences, values, culture, etc. of a person is not something they can change, and so the moral standards that are derived from those qualities also cannot change.

    Seriously, I've said all this before. Have you not listened to anything I have said in this thread?
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  7. #87
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    You adopt the alternative perception so you can be more tolerant to the other side.
    First off, it is strange that you assume this is not done mentally when assessing other's viewpoint, the trying to see things from the other person's perspective.

    Please define what tolerance means to you?

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Please define what tolerance means to you?
    Tolerance: willingness to recognize and respect the beliefs or practices of others and a disposition to allow freedom of choice and behavior
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Tolerance: willingness to recognize and respect the beliefs or practices of others and a disposition to allow freedom of choice and behavior
    It really depends on the behavior in question.

    It would be impossible to respect some practices of others in the sense of seeing them not up for critique. If I think something is truly wrong, I am not going to gloss over it and pretend I don't or say that I hold that belief up to the same level as I do what I consider the better course. That would be intellectually dishonest.

    If I believe a behavior to harmful to other innocent people, I will certainly vote against it when I am able to, I am not going to stand aside and pretend to have some respect for the freedom of choice for those who want to engage in it and if it does not harm others, it is not my place to prevent the action so it does not even apply.

  10. #90
    Free-Rangin' Librarian Jae Rae's Avatar
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    Have you heard of the concept of agreeing to disagree? There are some situations where you understand what the other person is saying, but you don't agree with it and no amount of discussion, tolerance or consideration will change that. You simply disagree, that's all there is to it. All that can be agreed upon is that you're intelligent people who see things very, very differently.

    Jae Rae
    Proud Female Rider in Maverick's Bike Club.

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