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  1. #71
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    That I think is where the difference between NiFe and NiTe comes into play. INFJs do have a conscience, it is just composed of different values as opposed to INFPs. XNFPs think in terms like, "Rape is always wrong, Murder is always wrong, etc." whereas INFJs think in terms of principles like "Do unto others as you would have them unto you, etc." 99.99% of the time we end up doing the same thing in any given situation, but our approaches are very dissimilar. But since both types are governed by a set of values, both types do have an inner conscience. Obviously though, INFJs don't have a Jimmy Cricket who tells them right from wrong, but rather a little seer in their head who imparts wisdom.
    A little seer in their heads who imparts wisdom? I wish I had one of those -- oh wait, I guess I do... sort of.

    I'm wondering now if INFJs are as capricious as INTJs now. They can be much worse than P types because once they DECIDE that they're finished or that there's nothing more they can do, they leave and move onto the next project without a thought looking back, while a P would most likely go back to tinker.

    And I think now is about time for me to quit. The turn this conversation has taken is making my head spin. Adieu!
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    But... Why??? Why should I bother about that? What is it supposed to accomplish?
    i don't know... you choose whether you will or will not try to affect someone. you judge whether they are worth your time. if they are, then it matters how you communicate. but in choosing to influence them, you accept that they are different and you accept that there is a barrier... you take on the responsibility of trying to break it down and communicate.

    its often better when both side is hammering at the wall instead of just one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Self-esteem is TOTALLY tied to thoughts and emotions, and indirectly to morals.
    i feel self-esteem is understainding yourself and your worth. To me, morals defines you and your worth. you can have morals, without understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    You're contradicting yourself. First you say it's my fault if they don't get it, because I'm being ineffective, but now you say it's their fault because they project on me.
    they project onto you because they are themselves full of hate. that is their flaw - not their fault.

    if you choose to influence someone, you take on the responsbility of communicating to them. if you fail to communicate to them on a level they would understand, that is your fault. of course, you can walk away from it.

    but still, it is you who are ineffective at breaking down their barriers and communicating that there is nothing to hate. you already know they don't care to try... that burden is something you voluntarily take on because you care enough to want to communicate.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Exactly: thoughts win out. But Ni-Ti is an *Introverted* axis. For INFJs, thoughts win out - but only on the inside. On the outside, it's Fe that usually wins out in the end.


    I must say I'm confused about this business of morals being "effective" or not. Why should morals be effective? What does it even mean? How do you measure effectiveness? And what does it matter: are less effective morals somehow less valuable or meaningful? I'm a bit lost here.
    effective in terms of affecting the world around you. that is reality. what is the point of belief if there is no action that accompanies it. even communicating is an action that affirms your beliefs.

    when thought is disconnected from reality - that is ineffectiveness. if that thought even partially influnces your action, your decision - then it is effective. how your action conveys that thought.. to what extent.. if that thought is able to affect the world around you - that is the effectiveness of a thought.

  4. #74
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfaninstant View Post
    if you choose to influence someone, you take on the responsbility of communicating to them. if you fail to communicate to them on a level they would understand, that is your fault.
    Hum, no. Sorry, but no. Communication implies that both sides are actually trying to listen to each other. You can't communicate with someone who is actively refusing to have anything to do with you. And it is entirely their fault, not mine.

    but still, it is you who are ineffective at breaking down their barriers and communicating that there is nothing to hate.
    Plain wrong. Nobody can force anyone else to see what they refuse to see. You can attempt to communicate with them until you're blue in the face, you can use every single method of communication there is, but until THEY decide to actually listen to what you're saying, you won't get anywhere.

    when thought is disconnected from reality - that is ineffectiveness. if that thought even partially influnces your action, your decision - then it is effective. how your action conveys that thought.. to what extent.. if that thought is able to affect the world around you - that is the effectiveness of a thought.
    Why are you defining effectiveness exclusively in terms of how it affects *other* people? If my thought affects me, then *by definition* it's effective, period. The effectiveness you speak of is only one type of effectiveness, it's definitely not the only one.

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    But do you grant people the right to hold those convictions and values, even if you don't support them?
    I don't even see how this applies. I cannot stop them from holding their values. I cannot hope to have a lasting effect on their values if I attempt external force to change their values and I find the idea repugnant in any case. No one can grant the right to hold certain beliefs to another, they have their own right to their values. I don't have to agree with them however and if they cause harm to innocent others implementing those values I am not going to stand by and merely watch silently.

  6. #76
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    we've already established that they don't care- the communication at best can be one sided. it is their fault that they dont' want to speak... but perhaps it hurts them. whatever the reason, it is your choice to stick with them and try to influence them - to have an effect, because your compass says you can change them, make them happy. or have them understand you and make you happy.

    ignoring who is right or wrong and examining only in the communication that ensues - what is effective and ineffective? effective is if you manage to in a one way conversation cause them to change. ineffective is if you can not cause that change.

    if you failed to cause an effect.. it is not because they didn't try - you knew that from the start. sure it affected the likeliness that you are able to influence them, but that is not the dynamic part of this problem - you are the dynamics. your effort to change them is the dynamics.

    if instead you were to tell them that following their actions now, even though it is true to their beliefs (say... what benefits them is always right), that in fact they don't benefit from it... that will suffer consequences for the things the do... well, you would have been effective at changing them, though not who, nor why they do the things they do.

    i was not referring to failure to try to communicate - you tried. i was referring to failure to communicate effectively.

    i should also qualify that internal change can not be forced upon, but influence can still be had.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Why are you defining effectiveness exclusively in terms of how it affects *other* people? If my thought affects me, then *by definition* it's effective, period. The effectiveness you speak of is only one type of effectiveness, it's definitely not the only one.
    to have an effect is to have caused change.

    your personal thoughts are effective - i think you missed the point. do you think about something, and say - that's true.. then forget about it? No, it cascades down and affect your other processes. it may be small, but by my definition, by you're acting different in even the smallest aspect of your life due to a thought that you have.. even if it is indirect.. it is effective.

    that said, why shouldn't something's effectiveness be measured by its effect in the world?

    let say you are looking at a rock. that rock has feelings and morals - a thought came to it that if it rolled back and forth, people would love it. now think how you perceive that immobile rock, unable to express itself. is it not true that the rock's thought is ineffective? the rock has no form of expressing that thought, therefore caused no change in you, nor its environment?

    that to the world of actions- it is a mindless, meaningless rock...

  7. #77
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    My postion on external force and moral reform. Jung says it so much better than I could.

  8. #78
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    HA! Leave it to me to spark a 7 page debate, simply with an analogy about hares!
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  9. #79
    Senior Member sriv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    HA! Leave it to me to spark a 7 page debate, simply with an analogy about hares!
    How dare you kill time! You ought to be arrested.
    Reyson: ...If you were to change your ways, I'm sure we could rebuild the relationship the two of us once shared.

    Naesala: Oh no, that I could never do. You see, humans are essential to the fulfillment of my ambitions.

    Reyson: You've changed, Naesala. If this is the path you've chosen, I've nothing left to say.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    HA! Leave it to me to spark a 7 page debate, simply with an analogy about hares!
    Equating base, mindless animal instinct with human higher consciousness.

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