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  1. #61
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfaninstant View Post
    Love done unto you is therefore a reflection of your morals. if you are unloved, your morals are probably off - or your actions does not represent your morals - or you are deceiving yourself about your morals.
    I wish it were that simple. But I just have to look around me, or read history books, to see that many wonderful, highly moral and loving people are not loved back, while many selfish, arrogant and abusive people are adored. So I'm afraid I have to completely and totally disagree with you on that point. The amount of love that is done unto us has next to NO connection with our morals. Biology, sociology, history: they all confirm that.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Are you kidding?

    Every individual is the sum of their family bringing, values, experiences, culture, etc. INFJs are as well, the only difference is they learn to read currents outside of that. Typically XNFPs have the idea that their moral standards are derived from the one an only, correct way of perceiving and doing things. Obviously, that is just an illusion they have adopted so they don't have to question the relativity of their own beliefs. But this is the first time I've ever heard an INFP suggest the exact opposite of what INFPs typically believe. Have you not seen heart argue against the culturally relative, changing perspective for all these pages? That is considered "corruption of the core," "selling out," etc.
    I know how it is for myself - you know, it maybe just me.. my Fe is 33.9 and my FI is 35.7... my Ni is 38.9 and Ne is 33.6.

    i almost want to say i'm I Ni Fi P... but i don't think that's logically possible.

    anyway, i think perhaps that i can't draw from my own experience and state that it is INFP... nor INFJ. =/

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    I wish it were that simple. But I just have to look around me, or read history books, to see that many wonderful, highly moral and loving people are not loved back, while many selfish, arrogant and abusive people are adored. So I'm afraid I have to completely and totally disagree with you on that point. The amount of love that is done unto us has next to NO connection with our morals. Biology, sociology, history: they all confirm that.
    i say that they have a disconnect between their emotions and their actions and how it is perceived.

    it is their lack of communication in a way that connects them with others that fails them, not their morals.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfaninstant View Post
    i think both NF in general strive to match our actions with our thoughts and emotions.
    Yes, but what happens when thoughts and emotions don't agree? For INFJs, Ni-Ti is the main intellectual axis, but emotions are mostly carried by Fe.

    but if seeing a brain-dead person elicit nothing from me... no emotion, no thought - than what meaning does it have outside of existence? that it is there so that we can refer to it? or them.
    Isn't that the same as with "actions"? If an action doesn't touch me, does that mean it has no meaning? Seems like you're agreeing with me: it's not just what we DO that gives it meaning, or WHY we do it, but also how it affects other people. In the end, the principles behind the actions matter no more than their effects on people. (You might want to know that this is something that contradicts other beliefs/principles that I hold, and yet I can't deny it. In typical INFJ way, I'll just keep looking for a way to reconcile those opposing principles.)

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfaninstant View Post
    i say that they have a disconnect between their emotions and their actions and how it is perceived.

    it is their lack of communication in a way that connects them with others that fails them, not their morals.
    No. Most of the time, it's simply that other people do not VALUE being treated the way they are by those people. You can love people as much as you want, or treat them nicely or whatever, but if they don't CARE about being treated that way by you, then it won't have any effect on them, and they won't reciprocate with love towards you.

    Think of abused spouses: why do they stay with their abusive partners even after they acknowledge the existence of the abuse, if not because they don't VALUE being treated in a better way? This also works for teams who let their coaches abuse them, or even entire nations who revere tyrants who cruelly mistreat them.

    Inversely, think of all those devoted parents and spouses who end up being abused or abandoned by the people they so selflessly and lovingly served. That's because their family members never valued being treated that way. Again, this works for groups, all the way to nations.

    Contrarily to what our feel-good culture would have us believe, many people actually do not LIKE being treated nicely and respectfully, even more so if they know you're doing it out of some "good" morality. Many will even actively render evil for good, just so they can break this good morality out of you.

    Call me a cynic if you want, but that's just what I see everywhere, in every culture, at all times.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Yes, but what happens when thoughts and emotions don't agree? For INFJs, Ni-Ti is the main intellectual axis, but emotions are mostly carried by Fe.
    thoughts win out - truth always win out. we work for our emotions, but we work around truth - else our emotions become ineffective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Isn't that the same as with "actions"? If an action doesn't touch me, does that mean it has no meaning? Seems like you're agreeing with me: it's not just what we DO that gives it meaning, or WHY we do it, but also how it affects other people. In the end, the principles behind the actions matter no more than their effects on people. (You might want to know that this is something that contradicts other beliefs/principles that I hold, and yet I can't deny it. In typical INFJ way, I'll just keep looking for a way to reconcile those opposing principles.)
    yes - it is the why we do things that gives meaning - it is the fact that we have morals and those morals guide our action - our morals give meaning to our action... and inaction..

    if your morals have no effect on people, it is because you are ineffective in carrying out your actions to match your morals. not because your morals are ineffective.. you are.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    No. Most of the time, it's simply that other people do not VALUE being treated the way they are by those people. You can love people as much as you want, or treat them nicely or whatever, but if they don't CARE about being treated that way by you, then it won't have any effect on them, and they won't reciprocate with love towards you.
    so.. that's what i meant.. you are ineffectivein communicating with others. you are a great person, but you need to portray it in a way that others can understand based on their values.

    of course, not everyone is worth the effort to care about, in a pragmatic sense.. you don't have that much time and money to spend on just anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Think of abused spouses: why do they stay with their abusive partners even after they acknowledge the existence of the abuse, if not because they don't VALUE being treated in a better way? This also works for teams who let their coaches abuse them, or even entire nations who revere tyrants who cruelly mistreat them.
    they stay because they are dependant - their sense of self is tied to the other person. that has nothing to do with their emotions or morals - they have no self esteem to see that they are worth more than what they have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Inversely, think of all those devoted parents and spouses who end up being abused or abandoned by the people they so selflessly and lovingly served. That's because their family members never valued being treated that way. Again, this works for groups, all the way to nations.
    that is because people don't value the same things. understanding what people value and motivates them allows you to interact with them in the most ideal way.. one that reflects you on their terms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Contrarily to what our feel-good culture would have us believe, many people actually do not LIKE being treated nicely and respectfully, even more so if they know you're doing it out of some "good" morality. Many will even actively render evil for good, just so they can break this good morality out of you.
    they don't like it because they don't feel they deserve it - they mistrust it. they themselves do no good, so in you doing it, you protray yourself as better than them. their social status, emotional status, who they are, is threatened by your very existence. it is not our fault, but theirs - and thus we enlighten and inspire them to develop who they are, or we ignore them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Call me a cynic if you want, but that's just what I see everywhere, in every culture, at all times.
    life isn't perfect. that's why were here. at least that's why i'm here. i want to change it. understandng how to cummincate myself in a manner that matters to others, who don't share my view of the world, is crucial to me - and that's why i'm here at this forum. i need to understand, else my action will not be effective.

    and i'm not too sure i'm a good job of it even now =/ well, i try. i'll get better - one step at a time.

  8. #68
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfaninstant View Post
    I know how it is for myself - you know, it maybe just me.. my Fe is 33.9 and my FI is 35.7... my Ni is 38.9 and Ne is 33.6.
    Those are almost exactly my scores. I always have an Fi score higher than my Fe score on that test.

    But I am definitely not an INFP. They wouldn't have me even if I declared I was.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  9. #69
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfaninstant View Post
    thoughts win out - truth always win out. we work for our emotions, but we work around truth - else our emotions become ineffective.
    Exactly: thoughts win out. But Ni-Ti is an *Introverted* axis. For INFJs, thoughts win out - but only on the inside. On the outside, it's Fe that usually wins out in the end.

    if your morals have no effect on people, it is because you are ineffective in carrying out your actions to match your morals. not because your morals are ineffective.. you are.
    I must say I'm confused about this business of morals being "effective" or not. Why should morals be effective? What does it even mean? How do you measure effectiveness? And what does it matter: are less effective morals somehow less valuable or meaningful? I'm a bit lost here.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfaninstant View Post
    so.. that's what i meant.. you are ineffectivein communicating with others. you are a great person, but you need to portray it in a way that others can understand based on their values.
    But... Why??? Why should I bother about that? What is it supposed to accomplish?

    they stay because they are dependant - their sense of self is tied to the other person. that has nothing to do with their emotions or morals - they have no self esteem to see that they are worth more than what they have.
    Self-esteem is TOTALLY tied to thoughts and emotions, and indirectly to morals.

    understanding what people value and motivates them allows you to interact with them in the most ideal way.. one that reflects you on their terms.
    I rather agree, actually.

    they don't like it because they don't feel they deserve it - they mistrust it. they have no sense of self worth. they see themselves horribly, thus projecting it on others. it is not our fault, but theirs - and thus we enlighten and inspire them to develop who they are, or we ignore them.
    You're contradicting yourself. First you say it's my fault if they don't get it, because I'm being ineffective, but now you say it's their fault because they project on me.

    life isn't perfect. that's why were here. at least that's why i'm here. i want to change it. understandng how to cummincate myself in a manner that matters to others, who don't share my view of the world, is crucial to me - and that's why i'm here at this forum. i need to understand, else my action will not be effective.
    True-blue idealism. I'd almost forgotten what it looks like

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