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Thread: a question about INFJ

  1. #41
    Highly Hollow Array Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Well, that almost sounds like no one has the right to hold to their personal convictions in the face of cultural expectations except those the individual INFJ believes has a right to hold to their convictions!
    Heh? Not quite. I grant everyone the right to hold whatever personal convictions they want (not that I actually have such right to grant, but you get the idea). However, I will not *support* everyone's convictions equally.

    Fi may be over-shadowed by Fe in the INFJ archetype, but it is still there

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Heh? Not quite. I grant everyone the right to hold whatever personal convictions they want (not that I actually have such right to grant, but you get the idea). However, I will not *support* everyone's convictions equally.

    Fi may be over-shadowed by Fe in the INFJ archetype, but it is still there

    Well, I don't support people's convictions and values that I don't agree with on an individual basis anymore than I support a whole culture's convictions and values that I don't agree with.

  3. #43
    Highly Hollow Array Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    The internal life of the INFJ would be Ni-Ti, wouldn't it? Wouldn't that give them a solid foundation for a internal moral compass without letting Fe sway it too far astray?
    Yes and no.

    Yes because the Ni-Ti axis sure gives INFJs a solid, thorough, not too illogical foundation to build on.

    No because it utterly fails to take people's feelings into true consideration.

    That's why Fe must be kept in its place of Auxiliary, and not be overshadowed by either Fi or Ti: because it's the only function that pushes INFJs to take other people's feelings into consideration. Without its input, INFJs turn into lean mean thinking machines who can elaborate complex and precise moral systems - but are hopelessly immoral themselves since they fail to actually CARE about other people.

    Ni-Ti without Fe is a heartless theoretical exercise.

    My Ne wants to do many things that Fi-Si just could never abide!
    I'm not saying Fe should take Ni-Ti over either. INFJs are not ENFJs! (I would know, I live with one )

  4. #44
    Highly Hollow Array Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Well, I don't support people's convictions and values that I don't agree with on an individual basis anymore than I support a whole culture's convictions and values that I don't agree with.
    But do you grant people the right to hold those convictions and values, even if you don't support them?

    That takes us back to the old "tolerance vs acceptance" debate. Where does one end and the other begin? I personally don't think there is an objective answer to that question, and that people end up having to decide for themselves on that matter, which inevitably leads to conflicts along the lines of:

    - By saying this, you cross into the acceptance realm.
    - No, it's still only tolerance.

    Or inversely:
    - You are being intolerant.
    - No, I just don't accept it.

    Without universal standards to judge on those matters, disagreements, misunderstandings, and even conflicts are inevitable. And yet, *not* discussing those issues would be even worse. I'm getting a moral headache

  5. #45
    Don't Judge Me! Array Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    So what is that guide post? Sure not a internal moral standard?

    If not, then what?
    Ni is a perpetual game of 'follow the shiny.' It finds a lead and takes it. Call it immoral if you like, but it's certainly prevented stagnation... I'm pretty sure any dom Ni type would strangle a Jimminy Cricket if they ever had one. We need to let our minds be free to chase whatever strikes us, or else we'd suffocate and die.

    This conversation is disturbingly familiar -- oh yes, it's the exact same thing with INTJs and INTPs.

    INTJ: "You're being too pedantic!"
    INTP: "You're being imprecise!"

    *sigh*

    Agree to disagree? Neither INFPs nor INFJs are inherently bad people -- certainly, they're much better than any given NT.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  6. #46
    Furry Critter with Claws Array Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Ni is a perpetual game of 'follow the shiny.' It finds a lead and takes it. Call it immoral if you like, but it's certainly prevented stagnation... I'm pretty sure any dom Ni type would strangle a Jimminy Cricket if they ever had one. We need to let our minds be free to chase whatever strikes us, or else we'd suffocate and die.
    That I think is where the difference between NiFe and NiTe comes into play. INFJs do have a conscience, it is just composed of different values as opposed to INFPs. XNFPs think in terms like, "Rape is always wrong, Murder is always wrong, etc." whereas INFJs think in terms of principles like "Do unto others as you would have them unto you, etc." 99.99% of the time we end up doing the same thing in any given situation, but our approaches are very dissimilar. But since both types are governed by a set of values, both types do have an inner conscience. Obviously though, INFJs don't have a Jimmy Cricket who tells them right from wrong, but rather a little seer in their head who imparts wisdom.

    Agree to disagree? Neither INFPs nor INFJs are inherently bad people -- certainly, they're much better than any given NT.
    I think that is all we can do. This is undoubtedly the most distinguishing factor between INFJs and INFPs. We can agree on pretty much anything, but when it comes to moral and ethical judgments, it's like night and day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Array cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    That I think is where the difference between NiFe and NiTe comes into play. INFJs do have a conscience, it is just composed of different values as opposed to INFPs. XNFPs think in terms like, "Rape is always wrong, Murder is always wrong, etc." whereas INFJs think in terms of principles like "Do unto others as you would have them unto you, etc." 99.99% of the time we end up doing the same thing in any given situation, but our approaches are very dissimilar. But since both types are governed by a set of values, both types do have an inner conscience. Obviously though, INFJs don't have a Jimmy Cricket who tells them right from wrong, but rather a little seer in their head who imparts wisdom.
    Is that really how it works for INFPs? I've always thought of my values as kind of a template and it is, indeed, based on the golden rule. The hard part is getting my head around the concept that things that bother me don't bother everyone else or things that don't bother me are a big deal to some people. That's when I shrug, play along as best I can, and say 'to each his own.'

    This is off topic, but this thread has made me realize why I hate Pinocchio with such rabid passion. Growing up, I was Jiminy Cricket to my mother's Pinocchio. She never listened and she always got us into trouble. Terribly frustrating.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #48
    Furry Critter with Claws Array Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Is that really how it works for INFPs? I've always thought of my values as kind of a template and it is, indeed, based on the golden rule. The hard part is getting my head around the concept that things that bother me don't bother everyone else or things that don't bother me are a big deal to some people. That's when I shrug, play along as best I can, and say 'to each his own..
    Pretty much. Here is an example. Say we came across evidence that about 1000 years ago there were a tribe of people on a remote island who killed off their elderly at a certain age because they had to control their population with their limited resources. Here is your typical responses...

    XNFP: That is murder! That is so wrong no matter what the situation! They were clearly savages for doing such a thing and not doing everything in their power to preserve the lives of their elderly. They should have just had fewer children even if it would have meant the tribe eventually dieing off. That entire culture is clearly disgusting and useless for having such a practice.

    XNFJ: Although I don't think I would agree with the practice in the present, it was 1000 years ago in a remote part of the world. That was a part of their culture and how they had learned to survive. For all we know, the elderly consented to the practice in order to ensure the welfare of the future generations and it could have been an integral part of their religious beliefs. So I wouldn't exactly call it wrong since that was their chosen way of life and it kept the people from staving.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post

    Not quite. Having to navigate by following a map would eventually kill the heart of any INFJ. Instead, INFJs learn how to read the currents and the winds and all that stuff so that wherever and whenever we navigate, whether it's a whole new place or somewhere we've already been, whether it's by night or by day, we'll always know what's coming. Sure we need to have a very crude map of the ocean, but filling in the details would bore us to death. Instead, we thrive on uncovering the patterns and on using them to examine each new situation on its own.
    I can only speak from my personal experiences, but those two are not mutually exclusive things... they may not even be all that different. roadmaps are the answer to our past situation. before we use it for something new, we figure out of the new situation is similiar enough with the past. if not, we analyze the roadmap to find the commonality, and using that i examine the new situation.

    is that not doing both? isn't it better to have both?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    You wouldn't, you're an Introvert. However, if someone insists on scrutinising your beliefs and on pointing out what they see as inconsistencies or any other kind of "flaws" in them, then you are likely (I'm not saying you will, just that you are likely) to explode in some sort of moral rage and tell the other person that they are wrong to think that way, that your way is the only right way, and that anyone with a shred of morality would see that you're right. That's puzzling to INFJs, who take it for granted that everyone thinks their own way is the most right way, and who are far more interested in understanding WHAT your way is and WHY you think it's the best way not only for you but for everyone else.
    again, i don't find that to be true... i have my moral compass, but i find it vitally important to hear other people's perspective on it. if it is meaningful, i change my perspective to reflect it, if not i discard. emotons and feelings of my morals are my own, and if you attack me based on emotions, i fight back because you're violating my personal space. if you are attacking it with reason, it makes me happy - you care about me, you have something worth talking about, and it might make my understanding of the world better, thus allowing me to see greater patterns and deciding my path in life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    You're pushing my INFJ buttons with that one Please bear with me as I put you through my INFJ grinder, OK ? Here goes: better world according to who? You? What makes you think that your vision of a better world is necessarily anybody else's vision? In fact, chances are that there would be quite a few people who would be *less* happy in your "better world" than they are now, so why would you even want to change their world? And so forth and so on. Typical INFJ/INFP interaction. Nothing wrong with either type, just that our priorities are completely at odds.

    Again, it all depends on what you call "better", which in turn depends on what you VALUE. Since INFPs and INFJs value starkly different things, they necessarily have a very different idea of what "better" means.
    better world according to me - i don't stop others from making a difference in the world as to how they view it to be... how they see their vision to making the world better. unless it is something that violates the happiness of others. I'm all for everyone making reality what they view is best and i don't force others to go with my plan... i make them see the beauty of it or ask them to leave and start their own "crusade".

    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    The emphasis is on "original". IOW: you cannot change your past. You cannot change what happened to you, you cannot change the way you used to think, you cannot change the values that you were taught when you were a kid. You can change how you REACT to all those NOW, but you cannot directly change them. Someone who was raised as a girl can never intimately know what it's like to be raised as a boy. Someone who was raised Catholic can never fully understand what it's like to be raised Protestant. Someone who grew up white can never fully appreciate what it's like to grow up black. And so on. We can try to compensate for those things by learning, studying, discussing, empathising, whatever. But we can never change the fact that we had *those* experiences, and not *these*.
    i agree - you can't change the past... but i believe there is too much emphasis on the past.... Oh, it makes us our current self, but eventually the present will be the past, and the future will be the present. all things that happens changes us, and the present can change us just as dramatically as the past have.

    anyway, i find this discussion very useful - thank you. i did not realize INFJ holds onto nothing of their flashes- though i suspect their patterns are very similiar to our roadmaps.
    Last edited by halfaninstant; 05-22-2008 at 10:07 AM. Reason: moving quotes around

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Pretty much. Here is an example. Say we came across evidence that about 1000 years ago there were a tribe of people on a remote island who killed off their elderly at a certain age because they had to control their population with their limited resources. Here is your typical responses...

    XNFP: That is murder! That is so wrong no matter what the situation! They were clearly savages for doing such a thing and not doing everything in their power to preserve the lives of their elderly. They should have just had fewer children even if it would have meant the tribe eventually dieing off. That entire culture is clearly disgusting and useless for having such a practice.

    XNFJ: Although I don't think I would agree with the practice in the present, it was 1000 years ago in a remote part of the world. That was a part of their culture and how they had learned to survive. For all we know, the elderly consented to the practice in order to ensure the welfare of the future generations and it could have been an integral part of their religious beliefs. So I wouldn't exactly call it wrong since that was their chosen way of life and it kept the people from staving.
    i'd have to disagree - i would say the second. however, i would add that they have improverished themselves with killing off the source of knowledge and wisdom that could guide them. then i would tack on my emotional standing - that perhaps whatever the cause of this could be addressed in a different manner and the resulting deaths of elderly individual would not be needed.

    if it was beliefs and the elderly actively participated, then i would back off. if it was not voluntary and i was living in that age, i would devote myself to analyzing why and how to fix the cause of this - if it was food, find better agricultural techniques.. or just growing more food. if it was cultural, then i would try to understand whether it is a valid cultural point, or if it was a made cultural due to necessity. if it was out of necessity, why... and fix that, then challenge the culture to point out that it is no longer required. and if they choose to continue it, i'll back off from them, but pursue ways of helping the elders out of that situation because they are not in it voluntarily.

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