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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Meh When have INFPs and INFJs *ever* agreed on the moral compass issue??
    My husband always tests as INFJ and he agrees with me on the moral compass issue and not letting the external world affect it.
    EDIT: Except in areas where Fe overwhelms him, like with family, but in politics and other areas its different. He has a solid and wavering sense of values and stubborn as hell about adhering to it.

  2. #32
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Add-on:

    The above discussion between Heart and Kiddo is typical, ultra-typical, even archetypical of interactions between INFJs and INFPs. I predict hurt feelings, or at least confusion, on both sides. Hopefully not anger, I hope.

    Come on guys, you know better than to go at it AGAIN
    I was actually thinking that. XNFPs and XNFJs have gone down this road on this forum many, many times and the result is always the same. The XNFPs argue that they have to uphold their own internal moral standard above all else, even if it means being intolerant of others and the XNFJs argue that it is more important to understand the other's perceptions, values, beliefs, culture, etc. when making moral judgments so as to maintain harmony. Then the XNFPs argue that the XNFJ's idea is too relative and that means people will be "selling out" or allowing "universally immoral" things to occur. Whereas the XNFJs will argue that the XNFP's idea is too objective in a constantly changing and diverse world.

    I am trying to bridge the gap but I have apparently failed where countless other XNFJs have as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Doesn't it depend on that culture's definition of tolerance and who deserves tolerance? If we're going to be relative here, may as well go all the way.
    I already explained how XNFJs can avoid getting lost in the sea of relativism in my post to wedekit.

    Whatever you wish to label it... if the overall cultures and values of the society don't support same sex being in *official committed relationship* whatever the label, then don't we just have to accept this about that particular culture, speaking strictly being relativistic about that culture? Who are we to say it is wrong? I mean, I would really like to stand up and say I support their right to individual freedoms, but ya know my fur just turned white for the winter.
    Actually that isn't correct. Most people don't care either way when it comes to civil unions. It's marriage that causes the issue. And I believe the title of "official committed relationship" is something that has to be earned. Not imposed on the religious rights of others. Hence, I can look past my own values and understand the values of others. And I would not force people to accept anything that imposes on their values. Civil unions can legally be made between business partners. It does not even imply a domestic relationship. I strongly believe that over time, once people have seen enough committed same sex relationships, then denominations will willingly grant them the title of marriage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  3. #33
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Doesn't it depend on that culture's definition of tolerance and who deserves tolerance? If we're going to be relative here, may as well go all the way.

    Whatever you wish to label it... if the overall cultures and values of the society don't support same sex being in *official committed relationship* whatever the label, then don't we just have to accept this about that particular culture, speaking strictly being relativistic about that culture? Who are we to say it is wrong? I mean, I would really like to stand up and say I support their right to individual freedoms, but ya know my fur just turned white for the winter.
    If I may jump in that discussion just for a minute.

    INFJs typically don't have a problem holding contradicting opinions. In that particular case, this means that while many of us do believe in cultural relativism, we also believe in cultural enlightement coming from people who oppose the culture of the day and place.

    IOW: we have no problem understanding, accepting and even supporting the fact that the majority of people will hold what passes as the correct opinion in their culture, while at the same time supporting those few people who challenge this opinion in a way that we think (at the moment anyway..) will ultimately be beneficial to the greatest number.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    My husband always tests as INFJ and he agrees with me on the moral compass issue and not letting the external world affect it.
    EDIT: Except in areas where Fe overwhelms him, like with family, but in politics and other areas its different. He has a solid and wavering sense of values and stubborn as hell about adhering to it.
    Or when it comes to maintaining the harmony in interpersonal relationships, some INFJs know when to be agreeable despite what they might actually believe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  5. #35
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    I already explained how XNFJs can avoid getting lost in the sea of relativism in my post to wedekit.
    So what is that guide post? Sure not a internal moral standard?

    If not, then what?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Or when it comes to maintaining the harmony in interpersonal relationships, some INFJs know when to be agreeable despite what they might actually believe.
    I take what I say from his actions, not his words to me personally. Also his postings made on message boards where he has no motive to hide what he thinks or believes. If I had not seen this solid core of values in him, I would not have chosen him. It is the finest thing about him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    If I may jump in that discussion just for a minute.

    INFJs typically don't have a problem holding contradicting opinions. In that particular case, this means that while many of us do believe in cultural relativism, we also believe in cultural enlightement coming from people who oppose the culture of the day and place.
    Well, that almost sounds like no one has the right to hold to their personal convictions in the face of cultural expectations except those the individual INFJ believes has a right to hold to their convictions!

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    So what is that guide post? Sure not a internal moral standard?

    If not, then what?
    That would be the conscience that forms from the original perceptions, values, beliefs, culture, etc. That is the part of a person that never changes (the qualities of being a hare), even if they adopt various perceptions, values, beliefs, etc. for certain moments, situations, environment, etc (changing the color of fur).

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I take what I say from his actions, not his words to me personally. Also his postings made on message boards where he has no motive to hide what he thinks or believes. If I had not seen this solid core of values in him, I would not have chosen him. It is the finest thing about him.
    Well you would certainly know why you chose to marry him better than I.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  8. #38
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    My husband always tests as INFJ and he agrees with me on the moral compass issue and not letting the external world affect it.
    EDIT: Except in areas where Fe overwhelms him, like with family, but in politics and other areas its different. He has a solid and wavering sense of values and stubborn as hell about adhering to it.
    (My Tertiary Ti is pointing out that you meant un-wavering... )

    *shrug* Everyone is unique. There has got to be such INFJs, or life would be dull. I guess he's got a strong Fi or something, which is not that rare among INFJs. And I guess living with an INFP would only reinforce his Fi. Nothing wrong with that. Some theorists even argue that Fi is the gateway to wisdom for INFJs, so maybe that means that your husband is a particularly wise INFJ ?

    I'm just a bit surprised by the "overwhelming Fe" remark, though. Fe is the natural counterpart to Ni for INFJs. We are *supposed* to be influenced by it more than by any other function except for Ni. Using Fi instead of Fe... That's not quite right, I'd say. But hey, if it works for him! It would explain why he agrees with you on the moral compass issue, though, since Fe is a *huge* part in why INFJs tend to be attracted to the concept of cultural relativism. Take out Fe, and this concept loses most of its attraction.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    That would be the conscience that forms from the original perceptions, values, beliefs, culture, etc. That is the part of a person that never changes (the qualities of being a hare), even if they adopt various perceptions, values, beliefs, etc. for certain moments, situations, environment, etc (changing the color of fur).
    Wow...just wow. This is exactly how otherwise nice people do things like lynchings and witchburnings!

    And this is the crux of why this whole idea of individuals changing "surface" values sets me on edge.


    Well you would certainly know why you chose to marry him better than I.
    I believe you implied he has engaged in a long term elaborate web of lies to placate me and create domestic harmony.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    (My Tertiary Ti is pointing out that you meant un-wavering... )

    *shrug* Everyone is unique. There has got to be such INFJs, or life would be dull. I guess he's got a strong Fi or something, which is not that rare among INFJs. And I guess living with an INFP would only reinforce his Fi. Nothing wrong with that. Some theorists even argue that Fi is the gateway to wisdom for INFJs, so maybe that means that your husband is a particularly wise INFJ ?

    I'm just a bit surprised by the "overwhelming Fe" remark, though. Fe is the natural counterpart to Ni for INFJs. We are *supposed* to be influenced by it more than by any other function except for Ni. Using Fi instead of Fe... That's not quite right, I'd say. But hey, if it works for him! It would explain why he agrees with you on the moral compass issue, though, since Fe is a *huge* part in why INFJs tend to be attracted to the concept of cultural relativism. Take out Fe, and this concept loses most of its attraction.

    The internal life of the INFJ would be Ni-Ti, wouldn't it? Wouldn't that give them a solid foundation for a internal moral compass without letting Fe sway it too far astray?

    My Ne wants to do many things that Fi-Si just could never abide!

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