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  1. #21
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfaninstant View Post
    And how can INFJ not have a roadmap? isn't every answer to a question a sort of precedence to be followed? sure it changes - its not a static roadmap. don't you keep every flash of insight you have to guide you? or do you have them, do an action, and forget the hunch?

    imagine yourself exploring a new ocean- as you move through it, you map where you've been so you know how to navigate it again at a later time... but perhaps on revisiting, you find a small island that you miss due to the foggy weather the first time. you don't look at the island and say it doesn't exist. that's stupid.
    Ni approaches each problem individually. Just because something worked last time doesn't mean it'll work this time. Ni looks at something and an idea immediately forms of what you're dealing with, even if you're not dealing with the same thing. Yes, hunches get examined and then thrown away. Dom Ni types tend to have terrible episodic memories, which is probably why they just have to go by hunches so much. Or maybe it's the other way around, that reliance on hunches downplays reliance on episodic memory. Maybe it's just natural compensation for the inability to remember.

    This makes INJs seem inconstant, but that's simply because they literally don't remember what they did before. If you have the memory of a goldfish, everything is new.

    and what's this about static beliefs... And who crusades anything? I don't push my beliefs on others. are INFP supposedly crusaders? What's wrong with wanting to realize a vision for a better world? are INFJ suppose to have visions that are somehow better than INFP?

    where did you get this "can never change the original experiences, perceptions, values, etc. that you hold"? are you saying that people are static and don't change? Seems a bit.. narrow minded.
    At any given time, an INFP has something they hold near and dear. I've on many occasions seen INFPs explode whenever that's violated. Then again, that's true for a lot, but it's particularly bad for INFPs. I'm just noting observations.

    and what's this INFJ trying to realize schemes? isn't crusading exactly the same as having a vision and trying to make it come true? isn't crusading all about making a vision come true? what's the difference?
    That's INTJs, I said, not INFJs. INTJs are more the type of Victor Frankenstein, yelling 'IT'S ALIVE!' when their scheme comes to fruition and having a perfect high for maybe a few seconds, and then getting bored and running off to sell their souls to some other project. Most of their dubious schemes involve sciences, technology, and more physical pursuits rather than the 'values' that NFs deal with.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Monkeys have been shown to have morals.
    I said, I would hold myself to a HIGHER moral standard than I would a monkey. I would hope we hold ourselves and other to higher standards than animals, if not, let's just pack it all in and give up now. There's no point to life.

    Yes, animals can and do adapt freely via nature to changing seasons, but it is the idea that morality and values also have seasons that I find alarming.

    I hope you will give some concrete examples of what you are getting at with this. How do you believe we should change to fit the mood of the moment?

  3. #23
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I said, I would hold myself to a HIGHER moral standard than I would a monkey. I would hope we hold ourselves and other to higher standards than animals, if not, let's just pack it all in and give up now. There's no point to life.
    You honestly believe that morals are what give meaning to life?

    Personally I think the meaning of life is to love, to help others, to procreate, etc. It's just hard for me to imagine that all life on earth is pointless if they don't accept one set of values, perceptions, cultural ideals, etc, so that everybody lives by the same moral standard.

    Yes, animals can and do adapt freely via nature to changing seasons, but it is the idea that morality and values also have seasons that I find alarming.
    Morality is relative depending upon values, cultures, etc. Hence they old saying, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

    I hope you will give some concrete examples of what you are getting at with this. How do you believe we should change to fit the mood of the moment?
    It's called cultural relativism. It is the principle that an individual human's beliefs and activities should be understood in terms of his or her own perceptions, values, experiences, and culture. And so when you are judging other individuals you take their values, experiences, culture, etc. into consideration instead of judging purely based on your own.

    An example I have used before is interpretation of Biblical homosexuality. At the time, pedestry was very common, as was male prostitution, men having sex in pagan temples (as was practiced by the Greeks), and rape. That is generally what is meant by the idea of "sodomite" and "men lying with men as with women" in the bible. Does that apply to consenting same sex couples today? Some people would like to take the route of judging them based on a fixed moral value of "homosexuality is an abomination and sinners who do not repent of this behavior will burn in hell." Others take on the relativistic argument and say that the homosexuality of the Bible is in no way relevant to same sex couples of today.

    Another example would be taking an issue like abortion and understanding it from both sides. A person who is very pro life can understand that by imposing their values on others, they are violating someone else's value of freedom of choice.

    A person doesn't become a pro homosexual or a pro choice person by adopting different perspectives, but it makes them more tolerant of ideas and beliefs that differ from their own. Tolerance in no way implies acceptance, and so they are not changing who they are by adopting the alternative viewpoints.

    (Of course if you would like to see FiNe run amok then just google "Fred Phelps" )
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  4. #24
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    Tolerance in no way implies acceptance, and so they are not changing who they are by adopting the alternative viewpoints....Morality is relative depending upon values, cultures, etc. Hence they old saying, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."
    What about genocide in other countries? None of our business if their culture supports it?

    If the culture of this country, the majority wants same sex marriage banned, wouldn't you have to go along with it and tolerate it based on when in Rome do as Rome does? Explain this fine point. If culture makes the moral flavor of the moment, then why argue with the majority on this point?

    It's actually private empathy, individual strongly held beliefs for the freedoms of individuals and minorities that drive any movement for things like same sex marriage, not relativism. jmo.

  5. #25
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Heart () pointed me to this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfaninstant View Post
    Don't both INFP and INFJ find the answer to their question internally?
    Yes. We're both Introverted types.

    And how can INFJ not have a roadmap?
    We just don't. We'd find that stifling if we did.

    isn't every answer to a question a sort of precedence to be followed?
    Yes and no. Every answer gives clues to the working of the Universe, but each new question must be examined within its own context.

    sure it changes - its not a static roadmap. don't you keep every flash of insight you have to guide you?
    Wow! No! My head would explode if I did that.

    or do you have them, do an action, and forget the hunch?
    Not quite. It's more we have a hunch, modify our internal web of ideas, theories and understandings according to it, and then forget it.

    imagine yourself exploring a new ocean- as you move through it, you map where you've been so you know how to navigate it again at a later time...
    Not quite. Having to navigate by following a map would eventually kill the heart of any INFJ. Instead, INFJs learn how to read the currents and the winds and all that stuff so that wherever and whenever we navigate, whether it's a whole new place or somewhere we've already been, whether it's by night or by day, we'll always know what's coming. Sure we need to have a very crude map of the ocean, but filling in the details would bore us to death. Instead, we thrive on uncovering the patterns and on using them to examine each new situation on its own.

    but perhaps on revisiting, you find a small island that you miss due to the foggy weather the first time. you don't look at the island and say it doesn't exist. that's stupid.
    Chances are, we already suspected (consciously or unconsciously) that the island was there even if we couldn't see it, because we noticed the patterns in the ocean around it that indicated its presence. We don't always realise what we already know, so we might be a bit surprised when we find the island, but then we go DUH! and realise that we should have known all along, because the patterns were there.

    If we are really surprised to find the island, then we take it as an indication that our understanding of the ocean's patterns is incomplete/inaccurate, which leads us to studying the island and everything attached to it until we find out what was wrong with our previous understanding. We then modify our knowledge of the ocean's patterns - and pretty much forget about the island itself.

    and what's this about static beliefs...
    Classic Ni/Fi tug of war. Ni says that Fi is too static, Fi says that Ni sells itself out (or something). No big deal.

    And who crusades anything?
    I'm with Heart on that one: INFJs have nothing to complain about when it comes to crusading Both INFx types are crusaders at heart, but not in the same way nor for the same reasons, so each type tends to see the other as being too pushy.

    I don't push my beliefs on others.
    You wouldn't, you're an Introvert. However, if someone insists on scrutinising your beliefs and on pointing out what they see as inconsistencies or any other kind of "flaws" in them, then you are likely (I'm not saying you will, just that you are likely) to explode in some sort of moral rage and tell the other person that they are wrong to think that way, that your way is the only right way, and that anyone with a shred of morality would see that you're right. That's puzzling to INFJs, who take it for granted that everyone thinks their own way is the most right way, and who are far more interested in understanding WHAT your way is and WHY you think it's the best way not only for you but for everyone else.

    are INFP supposedly crusaders?
    All NFs supposedly are, though all in a different way.

    What's wrong with wanting to realize a vision for a better world?
    You're pushing my INFJ buttons with that one Please bear with me as I put you through my INFJ grinder, OK ? Here goes: better world according to who? You? What makes you think that your vision of a better world is necessarily anybody else's vision? In fact, chances are that there would be quite a few people who would be *less* happy in your "better world" than they are now, so why would you even want to change their world? And so forth and so on. Typical INFJ/INFP interaction. Nothing wrong with either type, just that our priorities are completely at odds.

    are INFJ suppose to have visions that are somehow better than INFP?
    Again, it all depends on what you call "better", which in turn depends on what you VALUE. Since INFPs and INFJs value starkly different things, they necessarily have a very different idea of what "better" means.

    where did you get this "can never change the original experiences, perceptions, values, etc. that you hold"? are you saying that people are static and don't change? Seems a bit.. narrow minded.
    The emphasis is on "original". IOW: you cannot change your past. You cannot change what happened to you, you cannot change the way you used to think, you cannot change the values that you were taught when you were a kid. You can change how you REACT to all those NOW, but you cannot directly change them. Someone who was raised as a girl can never intimately know what it's like to be raised as a boy. Someone who was raised Catholic can never fully understand what it's like to be raised Protestant. Someone who grew up white can never fully appreciate what it's like to grow up black. And so on. We can try to compensate for those things by learning, studying, discussing, empathising, whatever. But we can never change the fact that we had *those* experiences, and not *these*.

    blah - don't generalize a situation where someone who happens to be INFP saying their path is the only true path to be truth for all INFP.
    It's not just one INFP...

    sorry, but you guys are confusing me - it seems like splitting hairs, mixed in with predisposition towards one type or the other.
    That's a good summary of what INFP/INFJ discussions usually look like, yes. Confusion, splitting hairs, predisposition: sounds about right. Though, of course, INFJs typically don't see anything wrong with splitting hairs: if a hair needs to be split in order for two people to reach a mutual understanding, then *of course* we're going to split it, duh !

    After all, there IS a reason why so many INFx are unsure, or downright wrong, about their last letter: we look very much the same on the surface (Introverted, iNtuitive, Feeling, Idealist, you name it). But we sure are vastly different once you go in depth...

  6. #26
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    What about genocide in other countries?
    There isn't much tolerance in genocide, is there? I don't think people have to be tolerant of intolerance.

    If the culture of this country, the majority wants same sex marriage banned, wouldn't you have to go along with it and tolerate it based on when in Rome do as Rome does? Where does the relativism come into it? Explain this fine point.
    Actually, I don't believe in same sex marriage. I hold a view very similar to Obama's and the majority of the country. I think same sex couples deserve civil unions, but I don't believe it is right to impose on the religious values of others by calling it marriage. If denominations wish to recognize same sex civil unions as marriage, then so be it, but I don't feel it is right to impose it on them. And if you look at the polls, most people are fine with same sex civil unions, but are opposed to same sex marriage. The debate comes from preserving the sanctity of marriage, and I think equality earned is far better than equality imposed. So if same sex couples earn the title of marriage from various denominations over time, then it will be better for everyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  7. #27
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Add-on:

    The above discussion between Heart and Kiddo is typical, ultra-typical, even archetypical of interactions between INFJs and INFPs. I predict hurt feelings, or at least confusion, on both sides. Hopefully not anger, I hope.

    Come on guys, you know better than to go at it AGAIN

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Add-on:

    The above discussion between Heart and Kiddo is typical, ultra-typical, even archetypical of interactions between INFJs and INFPs. I predict hurt feelings, or at least confusion, on both sides. Hopefully not anger, I hope.

    Come on guys, you know better than to go at it AGAIN
    I am not going to get *mad* at Kiddo, I like Kiddo, I just don't happen to agree with him in this thread, on this issue of a moral compass.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    There isn't much tolerance in genocide, is there? I don't think people have to be tolerant of intolerance.
    Doesn't it depend on that culture's definition of tolerance and who deserves tolerance? If we're going to be relative here, may as well go all the way.



    Actually, I don't believe in same sex marriage. I hold a view very similar to Obama's and the majority of the country. I think same sex couples deserve civil unions, but I don't believe it is right to impose on the religious values of others by calling it marriage. If denominations wish to recognize same sex civil unions as marriage, then so be it, but I don't feel it is right to impose it on them. And if you look at the polls, most people are fine with same sex civil unions, but are opposed to same sex marriage. The debate comes from preserving the sanctity of marriage, and I think equality earned is far better than equality imposed. So if same sex couples earn the title of marriage from various denominations over time, then it will be better for everyone.
    Whatever you wish to label it... if the overall cultures and values of the society don't support same sex being in *official committed relationship* whatever the label, then don't we just have to accept this about that particular culture, speaking strictly being relativistic about that culture? Who are we to say it is wrong? I mean, I would really like to stand up and say I support their right to individual freedoms, but ya know my fur just turned white for the winter.

  10. #30
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I am not going to get *mad* at Kiddo, I like Kiddo,
    Good for me Call me selfish all you want, but I hate seeing two people I like going at each other (conflict avoidance anyone? )

    I just don't happen to agree with him in this thread, on this issue of a moral compass.
    Meh When have INFPs and INFJs *ever* agreed on the moral compass issue??

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