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  1. #11
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wedekit View Post
    I know exactly what you mean. But I also see my ability to recognize the relativity of the worlds as a curse. It's hard to develop beliefs when you are forced to accept that beliefs contrary to yours have just as much merit. It is just so hard to feel confident in them when you can clearly detect the relativity in everything.
    I find the key to avoiding getting lost in the sea of relativity is to understand that individuals are objective in the sense that they are defined by their very own values, perceptions, experiences, culture, etc. Even every individual XNFJ is ultimately the sum of those qualities. Or in other words, while the XNFJ can accept that other beliefs may have just as much merit as their own, it doesn't change the fact that XNFJs have their own beliefs that are derived from their very own values, perceptions, experiences, culture, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by wedekit View Post
    (And BTW, I personally thought your hare analogy was good.)
    Thanks. I don't think heart got it. I'll explain it if she comes back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Thanks. I don't think heart got it. I'll explain it if she comes back.
    I got it. I am not an animal. Analogy cannot apply.

  3. #13
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I got it. I am not an animal. Analogy cannot apply.
    Um...humans are animals. Technically you are a primate.

    And as far as the analogy goes, I was saying that individuals will never stop being who they are by adapting different perceptions, values, beliefs, etc. when they encounter different times, environment, situations, etc. because individuals never lose their original perceptions, values, beliefs, etc.

    In other words, a hare is no less a hare by turning white in the winter. It was a brown hare at one point and it can be a brown hair again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  4. #14
    Senior Member wedekit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I got it. I am not an animal. Analogy cannot apply.
    Analogies are formed to point out similarities of two generally unlike things. So you not being a hare is what makes the analogy applicable. He's not comparing you to an animal directly, he's comparing a quality you have to a quality of an animal. He's not suggesting INFPs hop on their hind legs and reproduce incessantly. Just thought I should point that out. I'm in no way arguing that you MUST accept this analogy or else! Far from it.

    "Analogies prove nothing, that is quite true, but they can make one feel more at home" (Freud, 1933, p. 83).
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Um...humans are animals. Technically you are a primate.
    I am a senitient human being. If you want to be a mere animal, that's for your to decide but I put a higher moral responsiblity on myself than I would a monkey.

    And as far as the analogy goes, I was saying that individuals will never stop being who they are by adapting different perceptions, values, beliefs, etc. when they encounter different times, environment, situations, etc. because individuals never lose their original perceptions, values, beliefs, etc.
    There's a fine line for sure between growth and selling out. I never want to cross it.

    In other words, a hare is no less a hare by turning white in the winter. It was a brown hare at one point and it can be a brown hair again.
    So I could shout "burn witch burn!" when the mob forms and then later I can put my hair back into its bun and sedately go to church and preach love thy neighbor?

  6. #16
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I am a senitient human being. If you want to be a mere animal, that's for your to decide but I put a higher moral responsiblity on myself than I would a monkey.
    Monkeys have been shown to have morals.

    There's a fine line for sure between growth and selling out. I never want to cross it.
    Okay then.

    So I could shout "burn witch burn!" when the mob forms and then later I can put my hair back into its bun and sedately go to church and preach love thy neighbor?
    I've yet to meet a person who does that.

    A hare can change its fur when it needs to and still be a hare, but it certainly can't jump off cliff and expect to fly. As I said before, you can never change the original experiences, perceptions, values, etc. that you hold and those are the qualities that ultimately define you. Adapting different aspects for certain moments or environments can never change that. A hare will always be hare, even if it does try to fly. It'll just figure out after a great deal of pain that there are some things about itself that it can never change. Those are the qualities that define it as a hare. Just as our original experiences, values, beliefs, etc. define us as who we are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    A hare can change its fur when it needs to and still be a hare, but it certainly can't jump off cliff and expect to fly. As I said before, you can never change the original experiences, perceptions, values, etc. that you hold and those are the qualities that ultimately define you. Adapting different aspects for certain moments or environments can never change that. A hare will always be hare, even if it does try to fly. It'll just figure out after a great deal of pain that there are some things about itself that it can never change. Those are the qualities that define it as a hare. Just as our original experiences, values, beliefs, etc. define us as who we are.
    Can you give an example of what you are talking about? What kind of adherance to self do you find disturbing in these xNFP you speak of?

  8. #18
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Can you give an example of what you are talking about? What kind of adherance to self do you find disturbing in these xNFP you speak of?
    Crusading, put simply.

    They'll have a belief that may not be accepted into other belief systems, or not be supported by factual evidence, and stick to it for a very, very long time. On top of that, they'll crusade for it, which would infringe on the beliefs of everyone else. As in, INFPs seem gentle until you go against their values, at which point they turn into 'destroy' mode. And, well, it can be disturbing -- to INFJs who don't think you're considering other's feelings.

    But, I suppose INFPs will always crusade, just as INTJs will always try to make their dubious schemes a reality and ESTPs will always cheat little old ladies out of their life's savings.
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Crusading, put simply.

    They'll have a belief that may not be accepted into other belief systems, or not be supported by factual evidence, and stick to it for a very, very long time. On top of that, they'll crusade for it, which would infringe on the beliefs of everyone else. As in, INFPs seem gentle until you go against their values, at which point they turn into 'destroy' mode. And, well, it can be disturbing -- to INFJs who don't think you're considering other's feelings.

    But, I suppose INFPs will always crusade, just as INTJs will always try to make their dubious schemes a reality and ESTPs will always cheat little old ladies out of their life's savings.
    Good grief, the day an INFJ has anything to say about an INFP being stubborn about beliefs or crusading, hell will be frozen solid, okay?

  10. #20
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    I'm lost. Don't both INFP and INFJ find the answer to their question internally? I don't look externally for my answer. I ask question due to external events that prompt them, but my answer always come from within.

    And how can INFJ not have a roadmap? isn't every answer to a question a sort of precedence to be followed? sure it changes - its not a static roadmap. don't you keep every flash of insight you have to guide you? or do you have them, do an action, and forget the hunch?

    imagine yourself exploring a new ocean- as you move through it, you map where you've been so you know how to navigate it again at a later time... but perhaps on revisiting, you find a small island that you miss due to the foggy weather the first time. you don't look at the island and say it doesn't exist. that's stupid.

    and what's this about static beliefs... And who crusades anything? I don't push my beliefs on others. are INFP supposedly crusaders? What's wrong with wanting to realize a vision for a better world? are INFJ suppose to have visions that are somehow better than INFP?

    where did you get this "can never change the original experiences, perceptions, values, etc. that you hold"? are you saying that people are static and don't change? Seems a bit.. narrow minded.

    and what's this INFJ trying to realize schemes? isn't crusading exactly the same as having a vision and trying to make it come true? isn't crusading all about making a vision come true? what's the difference?

    blah - don't generalize a situation where someone who happens to be INFP saying their path is the only true path to be truth for all INFP.

    sorry, but you guys are confusing me - it seems like splitting hairs, mixed in with predisposition towards one type or the other.

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