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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    It would be impossible to respect some practices of others in the sense of seeing them not up for critique. If I think something is truly wrong, I am not going to gloss over it and pretend I don't or say that I hold that belief up to the same level as I do what I consider the better course. That would be intellectually dishonest.
    Well that is the difference between INFPs and INFJs. An INFJ can see a behavior that would be completely unacceptable by their moral standards or within their own culture, and they can find the merit within it by understanding the alternative perceptions, experiences, values, culture, etc. That doesn't mean they accept or approve of that behavior, but they can respect a person's right to feel that way. It isn't "glossing over" or "pretending" but rather understanding that other people have different perceptions, experiences, values, etc. and can have different ways of believing and behaving that one might not agree with. The INFJ therefore argues, "the better course" for them, may not be "the better course" for everyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    It really depends on the behavior in question.

    It would be impossible to respect some practices of others in the sense of seeing them not up for critique. If I think something is truly wrong, I am not going to gloss over it and pretend I don't or say that I hold that belief up to the same level as I do what I consider the better course. That would be intellectually dishonest.

    If I believe a behavior to harmful to other innocent people, I will certainly vote against it when I am able to, I am not going to stand aside and pretend to have some respect for the freedom of choice for those who want to engage in it and if it does not harm others, it is not my place to prevent the action so it does not even apply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Well that is the difference between INFPs and INFJs. An INFJ can see a behavior that would be completely unacceptable by their moral standards or within their own culture, and they can find the merit within it by understanding the alternative perceptions, experiences, values, culture, etc. That doesn't mean they accept or approve of that behavior, but they can respect a person's right to feel that way. It isn't "glossing over" or "pretending" but rather understanding that other people have different perceptions, experiences, values, etc. and can have different ways of believing and behaving that one might not agree with. The INFJ therefore argues, "the better course" for them, may not be "the better course" for everyone.
    Well, I am quoting the full post that you are replying to. I am talking about behavior that harms others. If it doesn't harm others, it is not my place to try and do anything about it, doesn't matter what I think in the privacy of my own mind or my spoken opinions.

    Well, what are we talking here? What behaviors that I find myself unable to *tolerate* because they inflict harmful to innocent others, that you would tolerate it? Why do I have to tolerate abusive behaviors in others?

    Sorry but I am never going to look abuse, murder or rape and say "Oh hey, that's just a different and wonderous way of looking at life! Zipty Do Da!"

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Well, I am quoting the full post that you are replying to. I am talking about behavior that harms others.

    Well, what are we talking here? What behaviors that I find myself unable to *tolerate* because they inflict harmful to innocent others, that you find so unacceptable that I could not tolerate it? Why do I have to tolerate abusive behaviors in others?
    It seems you added a bit since I replied. The entire last paragraph was added after I had already posted. Nonetheless, an INFJ can look past even harmful behaviors to understand the human being behind them. And INFJs don't "pretend" to respect freedom of choice. I could provide a genuine example, but I sincerely doubt that the OP would appreciate if I sent her thread down that road. But allow me to reply to what you have since posted.

    If I believe a behavior to harmful to other innocent people, I will certainly vote against it when I am able to, I am not going to stand aside and pretend to have some respect for the freedom of choice for those who want to engage in it and if it does not harm others, it is not my place to prevent the action so it does not even apply.
    The problem with that line of thinking is when you accept a behavior is harmful when it isn't or you believe a certain behavior is harmful in every situation regardless of circumstances.

    Following that line of thinking, let's assume you found homosexuality harmful to innocent people, as many people do. By your own admission, you would not stand for it. You might even protest and hold up signs at that say things like, "Protect our children from the gay threat" and "Fags will burn in hell". You would not respect a gay person's freedom of choice to be with who they want. You would be completely intolerant of that behavior. All that simply because of your perception that homosexuality is harmful.

    Why should you be tolerant to a behavior you may believe is harmful? For one, so you have an opportunity to learn and grow. It will allow you to observe a behavior and determine whether it is always harmful in every situation. For two, so you can sympathize with wrong doers, rather than simply condemning them. And finally, so you are free to change your opinions if they are wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Sorry but I am never going to look abuse, murder or rape and say "Oh hey, that's just a different and wonderous way of looking at life! Zipty Do Da!"
    Well I wasn't going to go there, but since you brought it up.

    Let's take a situation. Let's say it's an adult having sex with a 14 year old. Chances are an XNFP would simply argue, "That is sexual abuse and it is reprehensible and that adult should be in prison!" Many very good arguments could be made for that point of view. For example, there is a power imbalance and thus it is inherently coercive, and a 14 year old would probably not have the experience necessary to make good decisions. So does that mean a 14 year old having sex with an adult is universally wrong? An XNFP probably would say yes because their internal moral standards say so. An XNFJ would have a much more complex view.

    First they would look at a culturally relativistic perspective. Has it always been wrong? Well, no, obviously people used to live much shorter lives, so it wasn't uncommon only a few hundred years ago for people to get married as young as 14. Is it the same everywhere? Well, no, countries like Spain and Denmark have ages of consent as low as 13. Well is it wrong in every situation? Well no, I remember not to long ago reading about a case where a 13 year-old tricked a 20 something year old into believing she was 18. Is it harmful in every situation? No, there are people who have had sex with adults when they were as young as 14, and they haven't suffered any difficulties as a result of it.

    Now does any of that mean that we should accept an adult having sex with a 14 year old? Absolutely not! It doesn't dismiss that in this country, in this culture, at this time, that there is usually a power imbalance and thus it is inherently coercive, and a 14 year old would probably not have the experience necessary to make good decisions. But if I were to encounter a sexual offender who had been convicted of having sex with a 14 year old, I would want to know their situation rather than just condemning them for what they did.

    I would want to know what their perceptions at the time were, how they had been raised, what culture they had grown up in, what were their experiences, and what values they held. For example, it has been found that most sexual offenders were sexually or physically abused when they were younger. Many came from tough backgrounds. A common profile trait of a sexual offender is a person who has trouble establishing healthy adult relationships. A few even come from cultures where a 14 year old having sex with an adult wouldn't be a big deal. Now of course, none of that changes the previously mentioned arguments, and so within this country, they still would have broken the law and will have to deal with the consequences, but knowing their situation would help me to sympathize with them.

    Why would I want to be tolerant of people who engage in behaviors that I perceive as harmful? Because, they are still a human being and deserve to be treated as such. No situation is usually universally wrong, even if it is wrong in this country, in our culture, at this time. And people may have many reasons for behaving the way they do, and people should be respected for having different beliefs and perspectives, even if we find their behaviors to be harmful.

    That doesn't mean I think it is ok for an adult to have sex with a 14 year old, nor does that mean I advocate lowering the age of consent, only that I am tolerant of people making their own choices and I realize that what I percieve as "wrong" or "harmful" may not be that way in every single case.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    It seems you added a bit since I replied. The entire last paragraph was added after I had already posted. Nonetheless, an INFJ can look past even harmful behaviors to understand the human being behind them. And INFJs don't "pretend" to respect freedom of choice. I could provide a genuine example, but I sincerely doubt that the OP would appreciate if I sent her thread down that road. But allow me to reply to what you have since posted.



    The problem with that line of thinking is when you accept a behavior is harmful when it isn't or you believe a certain behavior is harmful in every situation regardless of circumstances.

    Following that line of thinking, let's assume you found homosexuality harmful to innocent people, as many people do. By your own admission, you would not stand for it. You might even protest and hold up signs at that say things like, "Protect our children from the gay threat" and "Fags will burn in hell". You would not respect a gay person's freedom of choice to be with who they want. You would be completely intolerant of that behavior. All that simply because of your perception that homosexuality is harmful.

    Why should you be tolerant to a behavior you may believe is harmful? For one, so you have an opportunity to learn and grow. It will allow you to observe a behavior and determine whether it is always harmful in every situation. For two, so you can sympathize with wrong doers, rather than simply condemning them. And finally, so you are free to change your opinions if they are wrong.
    The gay thing is NA for me, come up with something else.

    I don't care what adults do with each other as long as they aren't hurting or taking advantage of someone. People who seduce teens under the age of consent are in their own category for me, gay and straight. I can understand the reasons that led a person to seduce a 14 year old and I can have pity for them, but I will never *tolerate* their behaviors.

    You make a huge assumption that I have not already thought about whether or not a behavior is harmful before I decide it is.

    People who feel as you say above about gays, are people who believe one can be "turned" gay, they lack education. One does not have to have tolerance for a behavior to seek education on it. I read about behaviors that I find intolerable all the time, I want to understand them and I want to be clear in my understanding of them, I would always be open to new education and information, but I don't see how most abuse and crime can be tolerated.

    Even like with bullies, I understand a lot about why they do what they do and I even have sympathy for them as indvividuals for what may have put them into their mindset, even while despising them for what they allow themselves to become. I will never tolerate a bully, but I have sought to understand them and I do have a type of sympathy/pity for them.

    Even with the metaphorical Devil, one can have sympathy for what he has to be in the scheme of things and try to understand what makes him tick, while hating him for what he does.

    Quote Originally Posted by kiddo
    Well I wasn't going to go there, but since you brought it up.
    Why not go there? That's what it is all about! What do you think most INFP on here talk about when they say moral compass, whether or not it is moral to gulp down a gallon of rocky road?

  6. #96
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    Well it seems we have come to a shaky consensus then. We both agree that we can tolerate people who do bad things, but we can't tolerate the bad things they do. We just have different approaches to coming to that conclusion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  7. #97
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    Wow. What a thread!

    Excellent timing too...at times I've wondered whether I'm actually an INFJ, but this thread cements the deal!! I am!! I don't think I can add anything that hasn't already been said by Wandering and Kiddo, but I can relate very much to their approaches and thought processes.

    Internal roadmap...this is tricky. I find it quite difficult to articulate what exactly it is that I DO do when it comes to my cognitive functions. But so much of what others wrote has resonated with me, that I defer to their descriptions of Ni/Fe/Ti!!

    Edit: [man, this server sucks] A few more things, regarding the OP. I personally have a hard time with the whole 'hunch' verbage, as I don't see myself following a series of 'hunches' at whim, for no reason. I also have to admit that when I first read the whole 'internal roadmap' thing, I had a hard time understanding what was meant by internal roadmap. I like what others have said, as far as patterns go. Seeing patterns. My perspective on pretty much everything - world events, cultures, big topics, etc, and even myself and my own emotional state and framework and how it fluxes and changes over time, extends extremely far out, and when it comes to things outside myself, it's on a very large timescale -- millenia-- in the past as well as the future (with myself, it extends decades, and this causes problems for me - makes it challenging for me to live in the moment). I build upon my knowledge base, and hypothesize from there. It's a lot of interconnections, and so my 'hunches' aren't just random -- they're based on many things. But it possibly seems chaotic to outside observers, since it would be hard for me to explain how I came to a conclusion about something. Also, regarding myself -- it might seem that with regards to personal life choices I can be random. I can understand why people might think that. But I have good reasons for doing what I do, even if what I am doing doesn't have a defined path -- because I take my life and behaviors into context, project into the future, and then decide based on all of that, and all sorts of variables. So there might be some sort of probability thing that I throw into the mix too -- play the odds, perhaps. But even writing all this...I'm not sure this is exactly what I do...so don't take it too literally. :-)
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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Well it seems we have come to a shaky consensus then. We both agree that we can tolerate people who do bad things, but we can't tolerate the bad things they do. We just have different approaches to coming to that conclusion.
    Just to be clear:

    When I say sympathy, I mean definition 2. B. here.

    I don't mean any of this definition of tolerate.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn View Post
    Edit: [man, this server sucks] A few more things, regarding the OP. I personally have a hard time with the whole 'hunch' verbage, as I don't see myself following a series of 'hunches' at whim, for no reason. I also have to admit that when I first read the whole 'internal roadmap' thing, I had a hard time understanding what was meant by internal roadmap. I like what others have said, as far as patterns go. Seeing patterns. My perspective on pretty much everything - world events, cultures, big topics, etc, and even myself and my own emotional state and framework and how it fluxes and changes over time, extends extremely far out, and when it comes to things outside myself, it's on a very large timescale -- millenia-- in the past as well as the future (with myself, it extends decades, and this causes problems for me - makes it challenging for me to live in the moment). I build upon my knowledge base, and hypothesize from there. It's a lot of interconnections, and so my 'hunches' aren't just random -- they're based on many things. But it possibly seems chaotic to outside observers, since it would be hard for me to explain how I came to a conclusion about something. Also, regarding myself -- it might seem that with regards to personal life choices I can be random. I can understand why people might think that. But I have good reasons for doing what I do, even if what I am doing doesn't have a defined path -- because I take my life and behaviors into context, project into the future, and then decide based on all of that, and all sorts of variables. So there might be some sort of probability thing that I throw into the mix too -- play the odds, perhaps. But even writing all this...I'm not sure this is exactly what I do...so don't take it too literally. :-)
    the terms i used - hunch, internal roadmaps, etc.. comes from the text i read regarding INFJ and INFP.

    anyway, i'm glad it helps you understand your type. that's the purpose of this thread anyway =D

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Just to be clear:

    When I say sympathy, I mean definition 2. B. here.

    I don't mean any of this definition of tolerate.
    Meh, semantics. Sympathy is respect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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