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  1. #1
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Default Fi communication and “evil” TPs



    I wanted to jot these thoughts down. They represent some rough ideas I have pondered over for awhile and I think they are mostly legit, but as always would be delighted to have other share their own perspectives and corrections, as my perceptions are simply what I have seen. They are coming from my ENFP perspective and are things I have seen work on ESFPs, ISFPs, and ENFPs I know and may have some value extrapolated to other FPs and even TJs.

    • First: Fi judgments can be the most hateful, spiteful things ever, if used to protect one’s ego. This is when a TJ or FP degenerates to name calling or saying direct hurtful comments about another-either to them or to others. It is when an FP begins to start sounding nasty and vindictive and come close to some of the barbs that TPs can throw at one another out of fun.
    • To do this feels really disgusting inside and I think most of us know there is a “wrongness” to it when we do it. There is an internal hatred to it, a refusal to empathise with the other or allow them into one’s heartspace. At least form the NeFi side, we feel as though we carry the souls of others within us, thus to say things that are attacking of others, is to inadvertently attack our own selves.
    • Thus, simply by design, we are faced with attacking of others as feeling/being evil.
    • Thus when we see TPs saying sarcastic or pointed things, FPs innately read you all as EVIL, simply due to projection of our worldview. I work with a pretty cool, incredibly sarcastic INTP, whom another ENFP repeatedly says should “have a better attitude and not be so mean”. (In the same way, I suspect there could be the tendency of TPs to view FPs as “STUPID” when they fail to see an internal Ti logical consistency, but that’d be another thread altogether.)
    • FPs owe TPs an apology on a global level for this projection.

    Second, So, let’s say you actually want to try and communicate with an FP (or maybe TJ) and what you are doing doesn’t seem to be working:

    1. Recognize that throwing sharp Ti barbs or sarcasm at us like “you are stupid, your ideas are stupid” just looks like you are exhibiting spiteful Fi. This means we ignore you as being selfish and nasty and just not a nice person or a person with really, really screwed up Fi (think unibomber or satan). As I understand it, there is the notion that these shapr Ti barbs will provoke someone to think in a more reasonable way about an issue or recognize thier lack of logic...doesnt work well with us. Communication fail.

    2. Recognize that Fe overtones and suggestive guidance will also fail as you are trying to influence our internal value framework. You just get read as being a really manipulative FP or an FP who is value pusing and being rude. Communication Fail.

    3. Recognize that pointing to what Fe “everyone else” feels will be read to be as though you are not well founded enough in your own Fi value system to be able to think for yourself about what the right thing to do is, so we feel kind of sorry for you and just ignore whatever you are saying and roll our eyes. Communication fail.

    4. If you become extremely emotionally adamant, well we feel sorry for you, as you seem very upset, but we read you as simply being overwhelmed by your own Fi emotions, thus incapable of having a reasonable conversation-we will be kind to you, try and be as logical or detached as possible or just give you time to calm down and become more reasonable. Communication fail.

    5. When a TP of FJ tries to predict the internal motives of a TJ or FP, it is like watching a 6 car pileup on the freeway. Since we don’t use Ti, the Ti steps you guys come up with are typically very off and often quite offensive to our own Fi. Interestingly , you guys can get the external system correct and predict where things will end up okay, but you totally blow what motivates us and why we do things.

    Things that do work when what you are doing may not be effective:

    1. Affirm the emotional statement the person made. Recognize that they are entitled to feel what they as an individual feels, even if it seems bizarre or out of bounds. “you know you seem really upset and I would be as well in a situation like this”. DO NOT try and tell them what they should be feeling or what is normal to feel -instead say “this is how I feel…” or “Once I was in that situation and I felt this..”

    2. A subtle value shift can be done via affirmation combined with what action you would take in their place. “I realize you were really frustrated (affirm), and in that situation I would have been hurt too (affirm), but I would have asked him aside to talk in more depth rather than catching his car on fire in the parking lot”

    3. Be direct. Be direct. Be direct. Don’t be sarcastic or attempt to provoke. NEVER provoke or the convo will end. We will shut you down. Just simply say exactly where you see and issues then suggest a plan of action to resolve the issue. It is always okay to tell them what action you need them to take. This will prompt a negotiation of wants/values,

    4. Never rely upon indirectness or shunning. We don’t notice or we miss the subtlety. If you think you are being direct, be an order of magnitude more direct. Also passive aggressive pouty Fi shuns people-after awhile this is just stupid and we will treat a person shunning us as being emotionally immature and childlike.

    5. Don’t use shame, use guilt. “I did this action for you, know you need to do this for me.” “ You need to work harder for your children” We feel shame, but it is a rudimentary crippling Fi impact and if you shove enough it on an unstable FP, they may become suicidal as you destabilize their internal Fi.

    6. We can feel very strongly for someone, but still not take the right action by them. In this situation, don’t say “You need to love your kids more”. Shutdown will occur. Instead say “I know you love your children a great deal. (affirm) You need to get a job/clean the house/do your homework as otherwise you are failing them (action)” First affirm that their values are correct, that they feel the right thing, then TELL them Directly what they should do to exemplify those values.

    7. #1 FP tool for significant value shift: YOU ARE HURTING OTHER PEOPLE BY YOUR ACTIONS. This is how you influence our values in a very direct way. Even better pose it as a question: “Do you understand that the by doing this action you make other people uncomfortable/hurt? I know that you care, but your actions seem to indicate otherwise.”

    8. Take the convo to external logistics whenever possible as that is where we will eventually try and problem solve. Set up signed contracts and feel free to cut off financial support-I love you but you need to learn to be more responsible.

    9. Emphasize Te stuff-our external world is Te structure, not Fe structure, thus if you can focus on what we owe others in a tangible way, you’ll make more progress.


    again, just wanted to toss the thoughts into the wind. Long ago Ms @fidelia had asked me to jot them down and I just kept forgetting

  2. #2
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Nice post!
    There was this ENFP co-worker who expected me to be all cheerful for no good reason, but the best I could come up with was a smartass reply.
    She got along well with pretty much everyone but me.
    An INFP co-worker once laughed out loudly when I said I was concerned about some stuff that could go wrong. It was like in her mind I didn't really care about anything.
    Weirdly, most of my friends here are NFPs.

  3. #3
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    I dont get it...I am apparently a different kind of TP. My barbs are different, they are extremely blunt, personal, and can make comments like "YOUR STUPID" seem as childish as it is. This doesnt sounds like my "evil" side at all. I have actually laughed at ExFPs attempt to criticize and throw barbs because it seems very dull and not really accurate. I blame this on inferior Ni and Si.

    I think if you take out Type from this its a very good read though. ok, to give my 2 cents

    1. Recognize that throwing sharp Ti barbs or sarcasm at us like “you are stupid, your ideas are stupid” just looks like you are exhibiting spiteful Fi. This means we ignore you as being selfish and nasty and just not a nice person or a person with really, really screwed up Fi (think unibomber or satan). As I understand it, there is the notion that these shapr Ti barbs will provoke someone to think in a more reasonable way about an issue or recognize thier lack of logic...doesnt work well with us. Communication fail.
    I do this when I want to push you away so ignore is success, sorry, but we are not stupid enough to push someone away who we want to be closer. I am more likely to stop responding and take a moment to figure out how to bring you closer then to actually do this. I dont use Ti barbs to communicate...again I am not stupid...I use them to push people away

    2. Recognize that Fe overtones and suggestive guidance will also fail as you are trying to influence our internal value framework. You just get read as being a really manipulative FP or an FP who is value pusing and being rude. Communication Fail.
    Fe overtones and suggestive guidance work as I am not trying to inluence your internal value framework. I am trying to build you up, sometimes I am doing for my own reasons, sometimes I am doing it to be honest, and in the worst cases this will be mixed with #1 to not only push you away, but to build your confidence as that will actually help to push you even further away

    3. Recognize that pointing to what Fe “everyone else” feels will be read to be as though you are not well founded enough in your own Fi value system to be able to think for yourself about what the right thing to do is, so we feel kind of sorry for you and just ignore whatever you are saying and roll our eyes. Communication fail.
    I really dont match up with everyone else, so this has never even been a useful thing for me to do.

    4. If you become extremely emotionally adamant, well we feel sorry for you, as you seem very upset, but we read you as simply being overwhelmed by your own Fi emotions, thus incapable of having a reasonable conversation-we will be kind to you, try and be as logical or detached as possible or just give you time to calm down and become more reasonable. Communication fail.
    my conversations usually have to do with reason so logical/detached helps, but that also creates a seperation when we need someone to partially connect with. At that point I would rather both emotiona as well as logical

    5. When a TP of FJ tries to predict the internal motives of a TJ or FP, it is like watching a 6 car pileup on the freeway. Since we don’t use Ti, the Ti steps you guys come up with are typically very off and often quite offensive to our own Fi. Interestingly , you guys can get the external system correct and predict where things will end up okay, but you totally blow what motivates us and why we do things.
    I already know I am a fail at predicting motives so I dont try, its one reason action speaks louder then words. We dont read motives...we dont read between the lines...if you pull away then we assume you want to be distanced from us, if you pull closer we assume you wanna be closer. This is what threw me for a spin with my ex...she would pull closer as I got distanced and then distance as I got closer. I generally have no problems with the back and forth as long as I dont get pulled in close and then pushed away really far.




    1. Affirm the emotional statement the person made. Recognize that they are entitled to feel what they as an individual feels, even if it seems bizarre or out of bounds. “you know you seem really upset and I would be as well in a situation like this”. DO NOT try and tell them what they should be feeling or what is normal to feel -instead say “this is how I feel…” or “Once I was in that situation and I felt this..”

    2. A subtle value shift can be done via affirmation combined with what action you would take in their place. “I realize you were really frustrated (affirm), and in that situation I would have been hurt too (affirm), but I would have asked him aside to talk in more depth rather than catching his car on fire in the parking lot”

    3. Be direct. Be direct. Be direct. Don’t be sarcastic or attempt to provoke. NEVER provoke or the convo will end. We will shut you down. Just simply say exactly where you see and issues then suggest a plan of action to resolve the issue. It is always okay to tell them what action you need them to take. This will prompt a negotiation of wants/values,

    4. Never rely upon indirectness or shunning. We don’t notice or we miss the subtlety. If you think you are being direct, be an order of magnitude more direct. Also passive aggressive pouty Fi shuns people-after awhile this is just stupid and we will treat a person shunning us as being emotionally immature and childlike.

    5. Don’t use shame, use guilt. “I did this action for you, know you need to do this for me.” “ You need to work harder for your children” We feel shame, but it is a rudimentary crippling Fi impact and if you shove enough it on an unstable FP, they may become suicidal as you destabilize their internal Fi.

    6. We can feel very strongly for someone, but still not take the right action by them. In this situation, don’t say “You need to love your kids more”. Shutdown will occur. Instead say “I know you love your children a great deal. (affirm) You need to get a job/clean the house/do your homework as otherwise you are failing them (action)” First affirm that their values are correct, that they feel the right thing, then TELL them Directly what they should do to exemplify those values.

    7. #1 FP tool for significant value shift: YOU ARE HURTING OTHER PEOPLE BY YOUR ACTIONS. This is how you influence our values in a very direct way. Even better pose it as a question: “Do you understand that the by doing this action you make other people uncomfortable/hurt? I know that you care, but your actions seem to indicate otherwise.”

    8. Take the convo to external logistics whenever possible as that is where we will eventually try and problem solve. Set up signed contracts and feel free to cut off financial support-I love you but you need to learn to be more responsible.

    9. Emphasize Te stuff-our external world is Te structure, not Fe structure, thus if you can focus on what we owe others in a tangible way, you’ll make more progress

    None of this applies to me which is why FP advice is usually not helpful....the preceeding is a small barb...I have no desire to say your stupid...this is all very good advice, not not really applicable to Ti in my opinion, its more applicable to lack of Ti IMHO and I think who ever does this is actually stupid. I dont get it. I had an FP once tell me that I should take out my ex...we went out alot...didnt help. Sorry, but here is another one of my Barbs...typical ExNP advice doesnt help me...its generalized to "intorverted men" not personality.

    You can actually choose to ignore me because of my barbs, but then you dont learn me...(another little barb) when you learn to listen you will learn that my barbs have substance behind them 95% of the time. Name calling is for children, maybe you should rephrase this to "men who havnt matured"


    again...a very good article with lots of substance
    Im out, its been fun

  4. #4
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    With me, just talk with me, openly and I am very laid back, easy going and will try my hardest to work through problems. Even if there is a comunication/understanding barrier.
    Im out, its been fun

  5. #5

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    I don't relate, maybe it is an NF Fi thing and that is why it is in the NF zone. Sneaks out

  6. #6
    Senior Member Wolfie's Avatar
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    Love this!!!!!

    Especially:
    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post



    1. Affirm the emotional statement the person made. Recognize that they are entitled to feel what they as an individual feels, even if it seems bizarre or out of bounds. “you know you seem really upset and I would be as well in a situation like this”. DO NOT try and tell them what they should be feeling or what is normal to feel -instead say “this is how I feel…” or “Once I was in that situation and I felt this..”
    This is really important to me. I don't mind throwing sarcastic barbs back and forth. EXCEPT when I am being serious, I feel attacked when someone is choosing to pick apart what I am saying and scrutinize me rather than try to really understand what I am saying. I feel like it just muddles the conversation and instead of having mutual understanding, it becomes a defensive scenario. I see a lot of examples of this on this forum. Clash of TP and FP?
    ( . )( . )

  7. #7
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I wanted to jot these thoughts down. They represent some rough ideas I have pondered over for awhile and I think they are mostly legit, but as always would be delighted to have other share their own perspectives and corrections, as my perceptions are simply what I have seen. They are coming from my ENFP perspective and are things I have seen work on ESFPs, ISFPs, and ENFPs I know and may have some value extrapolated to other FPs and even TJs.
    I can see much worthwhile advice in your post, that would work well on many people. I don't think it is the best way to approach TJs, though.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #8
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    I like reading your posts.

    They are insightful.

    An interesting and surprising approach would be to try and feel your own Ti.

    Perhaps pick a close IxFJ's brains on it. Might be better at getting you in touch with its soul with their Fe.

    All the best and keep posting. You are a breeze of fresh air.

  9. #9
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    Of course TPs are evil, since they have no values and no care for justice or mercy, in fact rather than boss you around they will do something worse, which is to completely ignore you!

  10. #10
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    Excellent post! I'm not a TP, but I like getting insight on Fi-users.

    It's interesting to note that the things that Ti-users would say without meaning any harm would mean something hateful if said by an Fi-user. From what I've seen from Ti-users, there's a subtle language with this. On one level, some things are just meant to be humorous or simply pointing out an inconsistency or where something doesn't add up. It's been interesting watching my younger ISTP brother grow up and fine tune who he can say these things around and not have them be offended and who he can't (although he still has a little way to go). But then there's a level where it crosses the line into intended hurt, but it seems this isn't what you're talking about.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    4. If you become extremely emotionally adamant, well we feel sorry for you, as you seem very upset, but we read you as simply being overwhelmed by your own Fi emotions, thus incapable of having a reasonable conversation-we will be kind to you, try and be as logical or detached as possible or just give you time to calm down and become more reasonable. Communication fail.
    I've noticed this difference many times with Fi-users and TPs/FJs. On the Fe/Ti side, it's confusing when we're trying to engage you with Feeling and you respond with Thinking. It can even feel offensive, even though it's not meant to be.


    3. Be direct. Be direct. Be direct. Don’t be sarcastic or attempt to provoke. NEVER provoke or the convo will end. We will shut you down. Just simply say exactly where you see and issues then suggest a plan of action to resolve the issue. It is always okay to tell them what action you need them to take. This will prompt a negotiation of wants/values,


    4. Never rely upon indirectness or shunning. We don’t notice or we miss the subtlety. If you think you are being direct, be an order of magnitude more direct. Also passive aggressive pouty Fi shuns people-after awhile this is just stupid and we will treat a person shunning us as being emotionally immature and childlike.
    I've noticed this need for directness and not getting hints with my ENFP best friend. But if you're a direct person yourself, you'd expect others to be like this too. It shocked me a little when I first got to know her at how bluntly she sometimes states things--although I've learned that there is an advantage to people just laying things out on the table to deal with.


    6. We can feel very strongly for someone, but still not take the right action by them. In this situation, don’t say “You need to love your kids more”. Shutdown will occur. Instead say “I know you love your children a great deal. (affirm) You need to get a job/clean the house/do your homework as otherwise you are failing them (action)” First affirm that their values are correct, that they feel the right thing, then TELL them Directly what they should do to exemplify those values.
    Another example of how the same words are offensive or not offensive to different people--what you suggest as the non-offensive thing to say would be offensive to me, although the way you explain it I see how it's totally acceptable in Fi/Te language. I would also be offended by someone saying, "You need to love your kids more," (if I had kids) but I think what you're referencing is that people sometimes say things like, "Don't you love your kids? Why aren't you doing x,y,z?" I can understand how this can be offensive because of the implication. From the Fe perspective, love and actions are very intertwined. So the knee-jerk Fe reaction when someone isn't doing an action that in Fe-language equals love is often to think that it means there's a deficiency in the feelings that the person has. But this can be very, very wrong. This is why it's so helpful to learn about other people's thought processes and how not everyone speaks Fe-language.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

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