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  1. #81
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Would it be fair to say it's a matter of Fi valuing some 'ideal' for the group, whereas Fe will value something more practical and based on what the group wants (at least in the immediate sense, I think FJs will tend to want to refine that to an ideal on their own/in retrospect in anticipation of ‘next time’- but want to use immediate group ‘wants’ as a springboard for implementing resolution and FPs will want to dive into 'ideal' particulars right then-and-there without feeling that same pressure to have an immediate resolution to set in place). Because it's a theoretical 'ideal' existing in one or so people and not what actually exists in the social group (even if it 'theoretically' applies to more than that single person/few people), it can seem like MacGuffin described.

    I can see it working this way with Ti too, and see how TJs get frustrated with it. Any extreme is going to be annoying (Je not willing to take in any of the theoretical ideal particulars at all, or Ji being die hard convinced it’s “best” when really it’s just a solipsistic tangent that’s too far removed from shared reality to be useful).
    Interesting. I think you may be right. Perhaps it could be said: Fe tries to give the group what (it believes) they want and Fi tries to give the group what (it believes) they need - or is that overstating it?

    If this is right, it could explain some things. Because it shoots straight for the ideal, Fi could give out a pushy, self-righteous, "I know what is best for you" sort of vibe to Fe; and because it believes in allowing the ideal to refine/evolve/unfold naturally, Fe could exude a short-sighted, plodding, head-buried-in-the-sand sense to Fi. These are exaggerations to be sure, but are possibly revealling. In a way it could feel like Fi is attempting to force things in an unnatural and disruptive manner.

    And as you said this works in a similar way with Ti-Te. So to take it further:

    Fi/Ti - force the issue/ideal and let the resolution unfold
    Fe/Te - force the resolution and let the issue/ideal unfold

    Maybe?


    Sorry, I've gone on a Ne bender here...
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  2. #82
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I can't think of many situations where I gave into a group's "wants". I've raised issues that I thought it needed. For example, even if I consider myself detached from the group, I dislike it if someone is getting left behind or gets the short end of the stick. People might be riding en masse to a vacation spot or party, but they all try to leave this one girl or guy in the dust.. maybe they all conspire to drive faster and try to lose them on the way. I think it's a bitch move, might not even know that person either.. but I'll slow my car so they can keep pace. The same might apply in something as simple as giving candy to kids. They all need to share equally.

    I don't have many sophisticated examples of "group dynamics".. I'm mostly solitary, so take that as you will.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Fi/Ti - force the issue/ideal and let the resolution unfold
    Fe/Te - force the resolution and let the issue/ideal unfold
    Ti seems like a part of the core of every person.

  4. #84
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    ^ those are the key ideas right there, probably.

    I'd be betting the first point about the consistency is right, and at the same time not a problem for them. Not because they ignore the logic, but because the logic they use includes an automatic and important distinction between intention and expression of intention. Te/Fi: actions and processes in the outside world are not inherently moral items; the moral locus is inside the persons who guide those actions and processes. It follows that actions can't, or shouldn't, be inconsistent with personal principle, but they can, and maybe even should, be wildly inconsistent with norms and standards and conventions. That's to say, actions really don't establish principle. That might even be itself a principle.

    The second point about appreciating principle in reciprocity--well, I'm probably going to misunderstand the point because I'm only really focusing on this word "reciprocity". It seems key, and I think maybe the logic of Te/Fi doesn't accord much value to reciprocity per se. Universalisability of action is probably more recognisable under that regime. You look inside for moral authority, and you make efforts to consider what would come to pass if everyone really did act in the way you want to now, but you're not less moral if what you choose is lacking in external system.
    Thats an excellent way of explaining Fi thought processes. An Fi user is his or her own check and balance. What happens when everyone but the Fi user sees this? Granted, there is such thing as consensus and there comes a point when, to use my prior example of the ISFP, the consensus of her co-workers is that she does have a double standard. Does Fi just ignore this? How do you get an Fi Dom to see this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Can't tell if a trap or--

    How does anyone ever know what ninja ISTPs are really thinking? Are there ever lines that people will know about when they cross them?
    Lol. I'm more defense oriented. Its most times easier to extricate myself from the equation than worth the trouble of letting anyone know when they've crossed a line with me. I make a mental note and move on. Exception to that is when you've crossed a line and keep going. Then you get the equivalent of this guy ---

    with a shotgun saying "git offa mah land!"
    ~luck favors the ready~


    Shameless Self-Promotion:MDP2525's Den and the Start of Motorcycle Maintenance

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Hmmm, that's what it seemed like to you? I don't know that we read it the same way. I said I disliked autoplay, but never meant my comment to be taken seriously, nor do I think it important to change the set up. I wonder now if that's how it came off. I certainly don't think it should be changed if the majority of people like it or don't mind it.

    I think there are several wires getting crossed here. Sometimes Fe-users hear dissent as an attempt to bring everything down, when Fi-users just want to explore the full picture. Sometimes what Fi-user deems as merely expressing an opinion, Fe-users see as a call to action. Perhaps we Fi-users don't always foresee the impact of communicating an personal view and that it might undermine things for everyone. From our perspective more voices and more information are preferable, as it helps to clarify and determine what action to take. Perhaps one individual may express a strong dislike for the autoplay, without necessarily believing the best thing would be to change it - that person may simply not like it and wants people to know that, and isn't demanding everyone to drop everything and run around to please him/her. The strength of the opinion does not necessarily reflect the level of expectation that it should be valued above others.
    Are you a communist?

    I'm just kidding, but that's where the level of discourse went in that thread.

    Sometimes opinions are needed to be heard, and other times it gets old quickly. Esp. when the proposed course of action has already taken into consideration those opinions and determined that other things trump the desires of a few individuals. There are many things that bother me or annoy me, but I don't really talk about them because it's just a personal issue. When that personal annoyance lines up with a larger problem is when I speak up (otherwise I just save it for a one time rant).

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    ...as for the INTPs who indicated that they dont care about causing discomfort and even harm to others since they (according to them) stayed in the 'appropriate' boundaries of the social contract...That to me is about as selfish as Fi-users who deliberately destroy the harmony or the common goal that the group they are in is holding dear, just for individual expression.
    There are two kinds of situations where an INTP will be within the bounds of appropriate communication and not care about discomfort caused. I should also note that I have a hard time seeing how one could cause actual "harm" to another person without disregarding social convention (insults for example). But I'm willing to allow this could happen.

    1) The "eh, not my problem" situation. This is where the INTP is appropriate and another takes offense because they are overly sensitive by what was said or the issue. Then the blame lies on the overly sensitive person and their own overreaction to what was said. The INTP could be a little sorry they caused that if they like the other person. But that mostly results in the non-apology-apology: "sorry you were offended" rather than sorry the INTP said/wrote what they did.

    2) A bigger issue. Sometimes the INTP is after a truth or exposure of hypocrisy and will go after a person(s) to reveal this. This is a clash of values: the INTP values the truth, the other person values emotional reaction caused. This can make the INTP seem like a sociopath to the other person. As a type 9, I should be bothered by this category, but it often doesn't bother me. The other person can simply disengage.

    Thoughts?

  6. #86
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    There are two kinds of situations where an INTP will be within the bounds of appropriate communication and not care about discomfort caused.
    I think there are two sub-types of this situation when emotional tone of the language used is the trigger. One sub-type is when word choice is consciously chosen in order to be provocative (more common in ENTPs, but definitely happens with INTPs). Another is when actual emotional content bleeds through, and the INTP gets called on it as such. Disagreement about all aspects (emotional content of word choice, is said content provocative/rude/hurtful, does word choice say anything about the intent of INTP in question, why is the reader so oversensitive and perhaps would therapy help since the lobotomy the reader had clearly didn't, and does it even matter if explicit statement was correct) ensues. Good times.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    I should also note that I have a hard time seeing how one could cause actual "harm" to another person without disregarding social convention (insults for example). But I'm willing to allow this could happen.
    Clearly you didn't grow up in the South. It's totally possible to eviscerate someone politely, with a smile on your face and in a sweet tone of voice. Sometimes these eviscerations begin with "Well bless her heart..."

  7. #87
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Seriously though, fuck all of this back and forth about "evil intents" and evil words. It's what people do that matters (and admittedly, I've been guilty of that, but my point is... there are a lot of worse things in the world to gripe about than "sarcasm" and accidentally inconsiderate ways to speak... or something. Come on now).

    edit: And before it sounds like I don't care, believe me I've tried. It's like walking on a highwire, having to worry about how things come across.

  8. #88
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Fe is about what the social space at whatever level of specificity/generality should be like in order to be mutually beneficial. Fi is about what experiences--stories--teach us about the consequences of our actions for other individuals. it's much more golden rule. whereas Fe is more like making a deliberate social investment in building good social spaces for the social fabrics you identify with.

    all types have their moments when they stop really *listening* to themselves and others. and that's when the difference in assumptions really get in the way. it's not like any of us are going around communicating in a way that is not trying to make things happen. that would be a horrendous fate if it were the case. we just build our identifications with others in different ways. and it is useful to realize that people can be sensitive when you try to take over their story (which, has happened to me far more with np types than other types), and they don't like when you take over their *meaning* (ah boxes and socially pejorative indices!), which nj types can tend to do. it's not surprising that nj types, with their more hierarchical, systems focus, seem to enjoy argument much more than np types. who seem to almost always prefer narrative.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    I have noticed issues with Fi users (this post is geared toward the two I know very well) but it stems from what I view as their ability to use the double standard with impunity.

    With NFP's it's the big picture scale. One I know, steals from the job he works for yet is very verbal about the injustices of the Republican Party. Umm. Huh? The ISFP I know, takes shortcuts, leaves her job for others to finish but will be shocked (shocked!) when others do the same to her. An ENFP friend, who regularly uses guys for money, tried to pull that with a good friend of mine and when my friend saw through her she got upset and bad mouthed him to me. To me, I thought that took some nerve but she was offended by him!

    I don't know if this is too specific but these qualities usually leave me amazed at their shortsightedness or hypocrisy. A lot of Fi shows itself - at it's worst - this way. If I detect these, then I lose respect for these people and probably will be a bit dismissive because I don't trust them. I never call people stupid but I will throw some eyerolls around.

    Also, I know most Fi users don't do these extreme morally questionable things but I used the extreme to show examples of more nuanced "issues" that are harder to peg down.
    Yes, I know several Fi users like this. Makes you wonder what Fi values really are and what they stand for being that Fi is preached so much as values. Sometimes I think they just want to feel inside and this is a way they can do it.
    Im out, its been fun

  10. #90
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Seriously though, fuck all of this back and forth about "evil intents" and evil words. It's what people do that matters (and admittedly, I've been guilty of that, but my point is... there are a lot of worse things in the world to gripe about than "sarcasm" and accidentally inconsiderate ways to speak... or something. Come on now).

    edit: And before it sounds like I don't care, believe me I've tried. It's like walking on a highwire, having to worry about how things come across.
    I have to agree with you. You do your best to get along, but in the end it's just too taxing to worry about being inoffensive to everyone. Even the best of us will say or do something totally inappropriate at times.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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