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  1. #71
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    On another note you can easily have people who just want to be themselves. They dont go against the group, they want to be independent of the group. Of course if this person is valuable they are going "against" the group and they are just being spiteful and blah, blah, blah...projection
    Im out, its been fun

  2. #72
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    I have noticed issues with Fi users (this post is geared toward the two I know very well) but it stems from what I view as their ability to use the double standard with impunity.

    With NFP's it's the big picture scale. One I know, steals from the job he works for yet is very verbal about the injustices of the Republican Party. Umm. Huh? The ISFP I know, takes shortcuts, leaves her job for others to finish but will be shocked (shocked!) when others do the same to her. An ENFP friend, who regularly uses guys for money, tried to pull that with a good friend of mine and when my friend saw through her she got upset and bad mouthed him to me. To me, I thought that took some nerve but she was offended by him!

    I don't know if this is too specific but these qualities usually leave me amazed at their shortsightedness or hypocrisy. A lot of Fi shows itself - at it's worst - this way. If I detect these, then I lose respect for these people and probably will be a bit dismissive because I don't trust them. I never call people stupid but I will throw some eyerolls around.

    Also, I know most Fi users don't do these extreme morally questionable things but I used the extreme to show examples of more nuanced "issues" that are harder to peg down.
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  3. #73
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Anyone can be hypocritical, but in that case, I'd say it's how one might rationalize their hypocrisy. Fi might hold a double standard perhaps out of sense of justice.. "giving it to the man". Maybe your INFP friend thinks that way. An ETP could easily just be as hypocritical, but they wouldn't justify it the same way. They wouldn't care to answer at all. It'd be more like "So?" They rationalize on what works on a situational basis. Plenty of ESTPs might screw around on their wives, but at the same time, kill someone who screwed around with theirs.

  4. #74
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Since we're putting the cards on the table, I can't really detect Fe at all. I'm not entirely sure what's a good way to explain that, but it does seem to me that consciously viewing the outer world as containing no items of intrinsic moral value, action, or process, goes a long way toward making Fe invisible. What this leaves for the most part is an awareness only of what appears to be an unwholesome one-upmanship, like people assuring themselves of a rank. I probably perceive people organising other elements of the social order too, but it all seems so essentially arbitrary that only the weaknesses stand out.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    I have noticed issues with Fi users (this post is geared toward the two I know very well) but it stems from what I view as their ability to use the double standard with impunity.

    With NFP's it's the big picture scale. One I know, steals from the job he works for yet is very verbal about the injustices of the Republican Party. Umm. Huh? The ISFP I know, takes shortcuts, leaves her job for others to finish but will be shocked (shocked!) when others do the same to her. An ENFP friend, who regularly uses guys for money, tried to pull that with a good friend of mine and when my friend saw through her she got upset and bad mouthed him to me. To me, I thought that took some nerve but she was offended by him!

    I don't know if this is too specific but these qualities usually leave me amazed at their shortsightedness or hypocrisy. A lot of Fi shows itself - at it's worst - this way. If I detect these, then I lose respect for these people and probably will be a bit dismissive because I don't trust them. I never call people stupid but I will throw some eyerolls around.
    and you are correct in not trusting them. they likely wont trust you either. however, if they do, then someone isn't being honest and/or obvious about their intentions.
    Oh, its
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  6. #76
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    I have noticed issues with Fi users (this post is geared toward the two I know very well) but it stems from what I view as their ability to use the double standard with impunity.

    With NFP's it's the big picture scale. One I know, steals from the job he works for yet is very verbal about the injustices of the Republican Party. Umm. Huh?
    "I realise you're an ISTP and not very worldly, but you can't spot any relevant differences between an individual and an institutionalised political party? Have you always been a stooge for The Man or is this new?!"

    The ISFP I know, takes shortcuts, leaves her job for others to finish but will be shocked (shocked!) when others do the same to her.
    "I realise you're an ISTP and not very worldly, but you can't spot differences between an individual taking it easy at work and other people making it hard for her at work? Have you always been a management stooge or is this new?"

    An ENFP friend, who regularly uses guys for money, tried to pull that with a good friend of mine and when my friend saw through her she got upset and bad mouthed him to me. To me, I thought that took some nerve but she was offended by him!
    "I realise you're an ISTP and not very worldly, but don't you know I'm worth more than money!? Did you just now start measuring me by the money I use or have you always been some kind of banking industry stooge?"

    I don't know if this is too specific but these qualities usually leave me amazed at their shortsightedness or hypocrisy. A lot of Fi shows itself - at it's worst - this way. If I detect these, then I lose respect for these people and probably will be a bit dismissive because I don't trust them. I never call people stupid but I will throw some eyerolls around.
    It's astonishing really how easy it is to turn these examples around.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  7. #77
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    "I realise you're an ISTP and not very worldly, but you can't spot any relevant differences between an individual and an institutionalised political party? Have you always been a stooge for The Man or is this new?!"



    "I realise you're an ISTP and not very worldly, but you can't spot differences between an individual taking it easy at work and other people making it hard for her at work? Have you always been a management stooge or is this new?"



    "I realise you're an ISTP and not very worldly, but don't you know I'm worth more than money!? Did you just now start measuring me by the money I use or have you always been some kind of banking industry stooge?"



    It's astonishing really how easy it is to turn these examples around.
    I suppose but I can't support that logic because the behavior isn't consistent with the principles these Fi users seem to cherish themselves. Or at least appreciate in reciprocity. Now, those Fi users, with the exception of one, are very good friends of mine. I may judge them for it internally but I don't express it because everyone can think the way they want. They may do the same with me. Even though I may not trust some of them with certain things I trust my knowledge of them implicitly.

    Fi and TP's can have strange alliances to say the least.
    ~luck favors the ready~


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  8. #78
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    This all sounds like nonsense, sorry. I know a couple of NFPs (and a bunch of SFPs/STJs, who both have Fi somewhere in there) and I don't think any of this "advice" applies. At all.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  9. #79
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I think we both value the group. Human beings do tend to gravitate towards some form of utilitarianism. I just think we have different ideas about what is better for the group.
    Would it be fair to say it's a matter of Fi valuing some 'ideal' for the group, whereas Fe will value something more practical and based on what the group wants (at least in the immediate sense, I think FJs will tend to want to refine that to an ideal on their own/in retrospect in anticipation of ‘next time’- but want to use immediate group ‘wants’ as a springboard for implementing resolution and FPs will want to dive into 'ideal' particulars right then-and-there without feeling that same pressure to have an immediate resolution to set in place). Because it's a theoretical 'ideal' existing in one or so people and not what actually exists in the social group (even if it 'theoretically' applies to more than that single person/few people), it can seem like MacGuffin described.

    I can see it working this way with Ti too, and see how TJs get frustrated with it. Any extreme is going to be annoying (Je not willing to take in any of the theoretical ideal particulars at all, or Ji being die hard convinced it’s “best” when really it’s just a solipsistic tangent that’s too far removed from shared reality to be useful).
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  10. #80
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    I suppose but I can't support that logic because the behavior isn't consistent with the principles these Fi users seem to cherish themselves. Or at least appreciate in reciprocity.
    ^ those are the key ideas right there, probably.

    I'd be betting the first point about the consistency is right, and at the same time not a problem for them. Not because they ignore the logic, but because the logic they use includes an automatic and important distinction between intention and expression of intention. Te/Fi: actions and processes in the outside world are not inherently moral items; the moral locus is inside the persons who guide those actions and processes. It follows that actions can't, or shouldn't, be inconsistent with personal principle, but they can, and maybe even should, be wildly inconsistent with norms and standards and conventions. That's to say, actions really don't establish principle. That might even be itself a principle.

    The second point about appreciating principle in reciprocity--well, I'm probably going to misunderstand the point because I'm only really focusing on this word "reciprocity". It seems key, and I think maybe the logic of Te/Fi doesn't accord much value to reciprocity per se. Universalisability of action is probably more recognisable under that regime. You look inside for moral authority, and you make efforts to consider what would come to pass if everyone really did act in the way you want to now, but you're not less moral if what you choose is lacking in external system.

    Now, those Fi users, with the exception of one, are very good friends of mine. I may judge them for it internally but I don't express it because everyone can think the way they want. They may do the same with me. Even though I may not trust some of them with certain things I trust my knowledge of them implicitly.
    Can't tell if a trap or--

    How does anyone ever know what ninja ISTPs are really thinking? Are there ever lines that people will know about when they cross them?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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