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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    7. #1 FP tool for significant value shift: YOU ARE HURTING OTHER PEOPLE BY YOUR ACTIONS. This is how you influence our values in a very direct way. Even better pose it as a question: “Do you understand that the by doing this action you make other people uncomfortable/hurt? I know that you care, but your actions seem to indicate otherwise.”
    How direct does this need to be? I think this often boils down to the Fe vs. Fi problems but when the Fe users say something is harmful or uncomfortable for others it is still brushed aside because that isn't the objective of the Fi value. I see this over and over on this forum. And then the Fe users just start ignoring any Fi complaint because the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, and the few don't seem to care.

  2. #32
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I've wondered about this too. Any opinions, Fi people?

  3. #33
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Very good topic!
    TJ's are the most directive or task focused (being both "directive" in the Interaction Styles, and "structure focused" in Keirsey's temperaments, both of which represent forms of "task" as opposed to "people" focus), so that's why they come off that way. I always used to wonder about TP's being portrayed like that. It seems to be overgeneralization about T's; especially NT's.

    TP's will be either directive + motive (STP) or informing + structure (NTP), so this will temper those "barbs". Especially for the NTP's, who are in the informing side in social interaction. They'll shoot out the barbs when you say something really stupid!
    So, instead of saying "you're stupid," it'll be something more like "that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard" or "you have to be an idiot to believe that!"

  4. #34
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    So, instead of saying "you're stupid," it'll be something more like "that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard" or "you have to be an idiot to believe that!"
    Imo, a TP will be more likely to spew some comment on why it's the dumbest thing they ever heard- and less likely to simply say "that's the dumbest thing I ever heard." They'll make fun of what's being said by attacking what's being said, not some generic "that's stupid" dismissal of it. It's why I find arguments with NTJs especially frustrating sometimes- it's like they just keep repeating the same thing over and over again, coming back each time with an increasingly more aggressive "that's stupid" generic dismissal instead of a response that speaks to the issue at hand. A TP can be just as guilty of not listening and trying to force their own point of view on another to 'win' a discussion- but it takes the form of twisting every immediate detail into something that'll make them sound 'right' (with little or no regard for how ridiculous it makes them sound to anyone with a bigger view of the issue in mind).
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  5. #35
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    3. Be direct. Be direct. Be direct. Don’t be sarcastic or attempt to provoke. NEVER provoke or the convo will end. We will shut you down. Just simply say exactly where you see and issues then suggest a plan of action to resolve the issue. It is always okay to tell them what action you need them to take. This will prompt a negotiation of wants/values,

    4. Never rely upon indirectness or shunning. We don’t notice or we miss the subtlety. If you think you are being direct, be an order of magnitude more direct. Also passive aggressive pouty Fi shuns people-after awhile this is just stupid and we will treat a person shunning us as being emotionally immature and childlike.

    5. Don’t use shame, use guilt. “I did this action for you, know you need to do this for me.” “ You need to work harder for your children” We feel shame, but it is a rudimentary crippling Fi impact and if you shove enough it on an unstable FP, they may become suicidal as you destabilize their internal Fi.
    8. Take the convo to external logistics whenever possible as that is where we will eventually try and problem solve. Set up signed contracts and feel free to cut off financial support-I love you but you need to learn to be more responsible.

    9. Emphasize Te stuff-our external world is Te structure, not Fe structure, thus if you can focus on what we owe others in a tangible way, you’ll make more progress.
    I re-read the OP after Eric B's post. It's interesting how much of it is about Te. People (especially non-Te users) will often try to circle a issue, hinting at it without ever getting to the heart of it. This can work out just fine at times and can be the more sensitive option, but I can find it stressful and confusing. I've gotten into arguments with people that go round and round in circles and then I finally work out what their actual problem is, and think, "why the hell didn't you just say that in the first place?" - there's something to be said for clarity.

    To me, the "you're stupid" style comment is just further circling of the real issue. What it (apparently) means is, "you're not respecting my ideas" or, "I'm getting frustrated" or, "that doesn't make sense to me" etc. I suppose for Ti-Fe users this translation may be obvious, but all I hear is Te bitchslap. And I think, "where the hell did that come from? That's totally unneccesary". This either leads to an argument or to me completely tuning out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    That's interesting, because it explains part of what I've figured, and would sit how the Supine temperament tends to "use tasks to serve people". (The FP's are where the pure Supine, Supine/Sanguine combo's, and the pure Sanguine would be found. "Wanted" behaviors or all high, or "people-focused").
    The tertiary and inferior (as the same author pointed out in a further version of his theory) are basically more "vulnerable" areas, so Te will support Fi, and go along with the typical Fi "people-focus". Only when really stressed will Fi/Te manifest the more aggressive way it is being described.
    That's interesting explanation of the FP version of Fi-Te interaction. I think it's pretty accurate too. Tertiary/Inferior usage of Te is often framed in such a negative way, it's nice to see other ways it can work too.

    Some food for thought.

    Likewise, for the "most directive" TJ's, Fi simply backs up their task-focused Te agenda, making them all the more directive. THIS is where stuff like "stubbornness", "to hell with everyone else" attitudes etc. often generally ascribed to Fi will more often surface. It will be more about defensiveness r safeguarding of turf than for an FP.
    I believe these generalized characterization of Fi are likely the result of T-preferring theorists projecting their own experience of the function on to it.


    Thank you for saying this. SO true.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  6. #36
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    How direct does this need to be? I think this often boils down to the Fe vs. Fi problems but when the Fe users say something is harmful or uncomfortable for others it is still brushed aside because that isn't the objective of the Fi value. I see this over and over on this forum. And then the Fe users just start ignoring any Fi complaint because the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, and the few don't seem to care.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I've wondered about this too. Any opinions, Fi people?
    It is because of the way it is communicated that it gets brushed aside. Often it is laced with the shame technique that gets other Fe users to pick themselves up and realize the bigger picture, aka, they are harming the goal of the group/ standards of the society they belong to. That to us is meaningless, usually, as we put more stock in individual connection. Telling us we are being selfish (coz that is how it feels) makes us feel neglected and like you dont understand us at all, which only gets reinforced afterwards with the whole need of the many outweighing the need of the few. It sucks to be the few,for sure. And it definitely will build resentment and disloyalty.

    On a very concrete level, Ive found that the words 'you' and 'i' make a really big difference. With a Fe user you can go: 'You need to put yourself together now, look at what damage your actions have caused! => shame ensues, Fe-user shapes up.

    With a Fi-user you go: What about (insert person being hurt by actions)? Because of all this (Te, not Fe!), he is facing (insert consequences) => impresses upon Fi users that their actions are impacting the freedom and space of another individual (NOT GROUP), something most of us hold sacred.

    Then continue if you want: I think this mess (notice the impersonal Te here) needs to be cleaned up right now. I know you probably didnt mean for it to turn out this way (validate that they arent evil as a person), but that person right there did not deserve to have this happen to him (third party, no YOU did this to this). I would handlie the situation this way: (blabla). And I think an apology might do some good, to start with. Then (insert Te sequence of problem solving tactics).

    The cherry on top is to end with (the only place where you is allowed as it is a positive you):

    However, it is your decision as to how you want to deal with this. Let me know if you need any help

    (this puts the power back with them, and makes them realise that they can redeem themselves should they choose to do so (and most of us want to, as we dont want to be evil to others), and that they can do it on our their terms, the way they think would be the best way to go about it. As wel as that they arent truly hated by others and that others still stand by them, despite this little mistake. Which, if we are utterly shame-ridden on our own already and punishing ourselves (despite being defensive to others), can really help us to get out of that self-doubt prison it causes.)
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  7. #37
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    I'm not really sure I owe TPs a global apology. I've had ENTPs do truly evil things to me, I mean evil, I mean there were INTJs saying "Jesus christ what is wrong with you people" for the way they were talking to me (this happened on another forum) ...but one of the most spiritually evolved people I know is an ENTP, and he's a very very cool person.

    So, the lesson here is that Ti can indeed be used for great evil. This is NOT projection. Sometimes Ti users really are so closed off to their own Fe (and definitely their own Fi) that they are really nasty and lack empathy.

    This isn't the case with all of them. IN FACT, I've observed some INTPs and ENTPs on-line with some pretty damn active Fe...and that's outside of my IRL friend I mentioned who is so wonderfully centered and detached in a healthy way rather than in a cruel or fearful way.

    I don't hate ENTPs any more than INTJs, as a general group, though. I tend to think they can be two of the most evil types in terms of invalidating other people's feelings. I have no idea why INTPs and ENTJs wouldn't do this more since they actually have F inferior, but there you go. Maybe F functions in the tertiary have more potential for harm than inferior F. Don't know what that's about, haven't had even 1/4 of the problem with ENTJs and INTPs that I've had with ENTPs and INTJs on-line.

    Maybe it's because I really am ISFP and what irks me is their ego wrapped up in an N function; but if that were true, why am I okay generally with ENFPs and INFJs?

    Anyhow, otherwise I do think your post is excellent. I do think sometimes Fi users project on to Ti users in the way you mention; in my case it's because I reserve my words of ire for people I either feel can A) handle them (playfully, as in many T types) and/or B) deserve them (because they are an asshole). I typically use my foul mouth on people who I think also have foul mouths, unless I just really don't like them. I tend to actually speak a lot more kindly to 99 percent of people IRL than I do to 50 percent of the people on-line; and on-line I tend to shift to a completely respectful or adjusted tone (that is completely sincere) with people I like, respect, or whom I know simply can't handle my bad-mouthing in a light fashion, that they would find it hurtful.

    See, I don't like to really hurt people, not innocent people. And I perceive some T types as actively enjoying inflicting pain on others, honestly.

    I do whole-heartedly agree with the part about not being sarcastic or provoking, which leads to shut-down and emo meltdown, but I've had self-typed INTJs do this to me as well. Maybe they're mistyped xxTPs. I'm actually really starting to wonder if one self-typed INTJ on this forum is just a really arrogant ENTP.


    ANNDDD...this is why I love you, @Orobas

    “I realize you were really frustrated (affirm), and in that situation I would have been hurt too (affirm), but I would have asked him aside to talk in more depth rather than catching his car on fire in the parking lot”

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    How direct does this need to be? I think this often boils down to the Fe vs. Fi problems but when the Fe users say something is harmful or uncomfortable for others it is still brushed aside because that isn't the objective of the Fi value. I see this over and over on this forum. And then the Fe users just start ignoring any Fi complaint because the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, and the few don't seem to care.
    You really do need to stop sounding like a communist.


  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleFighter View Post
    I've noticed this need for directness and not getting hints with my ENFP best friend. But if you're a direct person yourself, you'd expect others to be like this too. It shocked me a little when I first got to know her at how bluntly she sometimes states things--although I've learned that there is an advantage to people just laying things out on the table to deal with.
    The people who have been around me almost daily for the past few years would always say what a sweet, nice, quiet person I was for the longest time. Then they got to know me. My ESFJ friend, when she really got to know me, like her jaw dropped like "this quiet passive-seeming person has a backbone of steel." And her ISFJ boyfriend looked a little taken aback one morning and said "wow, you're very direct aren't you?"

    People do tend to be shocked with me because I am so nice, and typically IRL in my daily life I'm pretty easy going both in my head and in my actions. I let out more here because I'm faced with a lot more serious discussion and a wider variety of personality types and a big screaming vat of people's inner-head fucking neuroses (including my own) on-line, where as real life is actually much less socially challenging (I find this to be the irony of the Internet; supposedly socially challenged people find a social life here, but my real life social life is a fucking cakewalk of pleasantness compared to talking to the asshats and ogres I encounter on-line).

    But yeah, my occasional bluntness is shocking, but the people who know me best actually appreciate how direct I am. Besides, I'm usually pretty easy to get along with, cooperative, and so forth if you can get used to that part.


    Another example of how the same words are offensive or not offensive to different people--what you suggest as the non-offensive thing to say would be offensive to me, although the way you explain it I see how it's totally acceptable in Fi/Te language. I would also be offended by someone saying, "You need to love your kids more," (if I had kids) but I think what you're referencing is that people sometimes say things like, "Don't you love your kids? Why aren't you doing x,y,z?" I can understand how this can be offensive because of the implication. From the Fe perspective, love and actions are very intertwined. So the knee-jerk Fe reaction when someone isn't doing an action that in Fe-language equals love is often to think that it means there's a deficiency in the feelings that the person has. But this can be very, very wrong. This is why it's so helpful to learn about other people's thought processes and how not everyone speaks Fe-language.
    Yes.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philosorapteuse View Post
    Oh no, it isn't that prominent. Normally it doesn't come in. It's just that when it *does* get into that territory (say, social drama, toys being thrown out of the pram), suddenly there's underdeveloped Fi rearing its head. Which has always bewildered me a bit, because from where I'm standing, we've somehow gone from people who pride themselves on their rational objectivity focusing on what appears to be the case in the world, to them going "Me! Me! Me! My values! Only my values!" At least, that's how my Fe head in a bad mood tends to read immature Fi combined with a lack of social skills to soften it. (That's not actually a comment on INTJs as a group, more specifically some of the ones I know who sprung to mind with this thread. The bad mood on my part may also be a factor. ) The OP's post shed some light for me on why that might be and why I don't understand it when it happens. The fact that I kind of wrecked myself trying to develop my Fe also contributes to that negative reading, as the first impression to me is consequently "You can't be bothered to make the effort that I did to consider other people, and also you don't think it's important, which makes you a selfish arsehole." Which is of course grossly unfair, because an Fi user's just not operating on the same lines as I am...

    ETA: Don't get me wrong, I do like my (many) INTJ friends, and they've got some sterling qualities! This is just one thing I find it really hard to deal with without getting pissed off and unfair. And I'm sure I annoy them just as much...
    Noooo...it's not just you. I see them that way too. It's got nothing to do with mood. It's a very real side to INTJs, especially the less mature ones.

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