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  1. #21
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    I dont get it...I am apparently a different kind of TP.
    Yeah, me too. I'm usually blunt, direct, and hate hints. The thought of someone telling me how I ought to feel or telling me it's wrong to feel a particular way sends me into a rage. I try never to say things to people that would intentionally hurt them. I will admit that I can be a bit harsh, but I don't intend to come off that way.

    I enjoyed reading this. I thought the suggestions were very good for overall communication with NFPs, though.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    Yeah, me too. I'm usually blunt, direct, and hate hints. The thought of someone telling me how I ought to feel or telling me it's wrong to feel a particular way sends me into a rage. I try never to say things to people that would intentionally hurt them. I will admit that I can be a bit harsh, but I don't intend to come off that way.

    I enjoyed reading this. I thought the suggestions were very good for overall communication with NFPs, though.
    I have never really had any problems communicating with NFPs. I dont always have things to talk about, but thats usually about it. Sometimes i regret telling them something because they extrapolate to far into what i say. I dont generally have problems with them though communication wise. My best friend is INFP, its based on a mixture of physical and communication.

    Its all about focus. If you care but your focus is on being right then caring will fall to the background and communication will be on why you are right. Or many of the other things that matter. Thats how life is...its not a i care or i dont, but its all about whats more important in life.
    Im out, its been fun

  3. #23
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philosorapteuse View Post
    Very interesting post. Sheds some light both on why some of the INTJs I know sometimes come off as self-obsessed and closed-minded (and, relatedly, why my Fe rationalising often seems to just result in shutdown. It would never even occur to me that that might appear manipulative. I don't do manipulation. I don't even understand it, really. So that's very interesting.)
    Could you say more about this? I am still not seeing how it relates to NTJs who are only Fi-tert/inferior. F overall just isn't that prominent.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #24
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    I have never really had any problems communicating with NFPs. I dont always have things to talk about, but thats usually about it. Sometimes i regret telling them something because they extrapolate to far into what i say. I dont generally have problems with them though communication wise. My best friend is INFP, its based on a mixture of physical and communication.

    Its all about focus. If you care but your focus is on being right then caring will fall to the background and communication will be on why you are right. Or many of the other things that matter. Thats how life is...its not a i care or i dont, but its all about whats more important in life.
    Yeah bingo.
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  5. #25
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Good post, this is helpful. I seem to have difficulty communicating with a lot of people, and don't really see a pattern in the types. It seems kind of all or nothing. Some people I'm constantly offending no matter what I do or say it seems, and some people I never offend and they really get me. My INFP cousin is one of those over-sensitive people, but my ISFP guy isn't. Somehow he kind of gets me. But he likes being ridiculous and saying playfully awful things. My XNFJ friend/mentor is extremely judgmental and refuses to acknowledge it, and is over-sensitive. We have huge communication issues. I'm always disappointing and offending her. My ENTJ ex bf was probably the only person I've never offended, and he completely understood my need for honesty. I found him kind of bossy at times, but he understood that I needed a bit of a communication adjustment, and was willing to comply.

    I can relate to what you've posted almost completely, @Amargith. I relate to a lot of the Fi stuff, but a lot of thinking stuff too. I'm a direct and blunt person, but I'm mindful about how what I say could be taken. I'm very sensitive to judgment and criticism, because I am an extreme perfectionist and have very judgmental and critical parents. I hate for anyone to insinuate that I'm incompetent or anything else negative. I need affirmation for my feelings, but I also need a reality check that my feelings are an appropriate response to the given situation- so what "everyone else feels" is helpful. I kind of suck at both Fe and Te. I appreciate useful advice about how to do things, as long as I know there is no judgment involved. And I HATE guilt trips. It's the quickest way to get me to shut down and get really angry. I'm done with guilt for any reason, and I refuse to accept attempts to make me feel it. I care about some things and not others, and how much I care is my own business. What I want is honest, detached communication. Be honest about your feelings; if you feel something negative about me, tell me, so I don't get paranoid. And I might not pick up on it otherwise because I won't think to look, because I'm kind of self absorbed. And tell me what you think in a nonjudgmental way. For me it's good to just say this is my assessment of the situation, yes your feelings are reasonable, and here is an idea of something you could do to fix it.

  6. #26
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    The topic of Ti’ers throwing around “you’re stupid” easily has come up before, and it actually seems to me like TJs are more inclined to throw a “you’re stupid’ at someone than a TP is. Not ALL TJs- but among people who get argumentative, I think TJs act this way more than TPs. It’s almost like a point of pride with TPs- as if s/he who comes up with the most pointed jab which is both completely relevant to the argument at hand and illustrates the other person’s flaw in logic most effectively (usually with some exaggerated little caricature of it)…..wins! “You’re stupid” is the least effective way to do this though- they may think “that’s stupid” or “you’re stupid”, but it seems (to me) TPs are more likely to actually say something more specific and context dependent. Or maybe those are what Orobas is referring to, and all ‘Ti barbs’ just sound like “you’re stupid” to Te’ers? Or maybe I just don’t understand what’s meant by ‘Ti barb’.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    2. Recognize that Fe overtones and suggestive guidance will also fail as you are trying to influence our internal value framework. You just get read as being a really manipulative FP or an FP who is value pusing and being rude. Communication Fail.
    Can you (or anyone) give a specific example of “Fe overtones and suggestive guidance”?
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  7. #27
    right on the left wing Philosorapteuse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Could you say more about this? I am still not seeing how it relates to NTJs who are only Fi-tert/inferior. F overall just isn't that prominent.
    Oh no, it isn't that prominent. Normally it doesn't come in. It's just that when it *does* get into that territory (say, social drama, toys being thrown out of the pram), suddenly there's underdeveloped Fi rearing its head. Which has always bewildered me a bit, because from where I'm standing, we've somehow gone from people who pride themselves on their rational objectivity focusing on what appears to be the case in the world, to them going "Me! Me! Me! My values! Only my values!" At least, that's how my Fe head in a bad mood tends to read immature Fi combined with a lack of social skills to soften it. (That's not actually a comment on INTJs as a group, more specifically some of the ones I know who sprung to mind with this thread. The bad mood on my part may also be a factor. ) The OP's post shed some light for me on why that might be and why I don't understand it when it happens. The fact that I kind of wrecked myself trying to develop my Fe also contributes to that negative reading, as the first impression to me is consequently "You can't be bothered to make the effort that I did to consider other people, and also you don't think it's important, which makes you a selfish arsehole." Which is of course grossly unfair, because an Fi user's just not operating on the same lines as I am...

    ETA: Don't get me wrong, I do like my (many) INTJ friends, and they've got some sterling qualities! This is just one thing I find it really hard to deal with without getting pissed off and unfair. And I'm sure I annoy them just as much...
    "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices." --William James

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  8. #28
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    All I know is 'sparring' doesn't go down well with INFPs...
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  9. #29
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    at what point do these issues become subsumed by "boundary issues" more generally?

    i mean, introverted functions don't mean shit most of the time to others, right? how much of this is acceptable? should Ni premonitions get consubstantiated every time an inj interacts with others and thinks he *sees* the most important thing? should Ti presuppositions be validated when they purport to be objectively correct and try to gain control over a story that is larger than theirs? should Si "facts" require us to first acknowledge that the descriptions of things that are remembered are important and worth conserving? likewise, do stories of qualitative experience demand validation by others or can they in most cases stand on their own two feet?

    i understand that F might amplify the significance of the other's reaction (in an especially 5th chakra way). but, at the same time, don't all types want their predominant pieces of self, the ones that they specialize in and that typify their best, most developed kinds of learning, heard and acknowledged? similarly, don't we all constantly deal with the fact that we rarely get this and that the world isn't really made for us as differentiated individuals?

    what seems just in this respect? is it realistic to check in with each and every aspect of being in one's encounters? do one's feelings have the right to always matter to others, when they are not yet materialized? or is that the point? that this is simply the way to negotiate about ACTION and not about the right to organize one's own action according to whatever underlying principles/methods one uses?

    i don't mean to be dismissive, just constraining. just inputting my own voice into the conversation based on what i can contribute (which is kind of stuck on a scope that i specialize in). for me to accept the value of Fi is different than me trying to be with you in an Fi way. it takes tremendous guesswork to try to emulate a rudimentary mockup. i understand that Fi and protecting people's story selves, the qualitative experiences that anchor them to stories that in turn define the present, that remind them of where they are going, are very important aspects of our lives to protect, whether i am really aware of Fi internally or not. but i feel like with many Fi users i cannot do what is being *expected* much of the time. and most of all, i am trying to come to terms with MY boundaries with respect to that.

  10. #30
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Very good topic!
    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    The topic of Ti’ers throwing around “you’re stupid” easily has come up before, and it actually seems to me like TJs are more inclined to throw a “you’re stupid’ at someone than a TP is. Not ALL TJs- but among people who get argumentative, I think TJs act this way more than TPs. It’s almost like a point of pride with TPs- as if s/he who comes up with the most pointed jab which is both completely relevant to the argument at hand and illustrates the other person’s flaw in logic most effectively (usually with some exaggerated little caricature of it)…..wins! “You’re stupid” is the least effective way to do this though- they may think “that’s stupid” or “you’re stupid”, but it seems (to me) TPs are more likely to actually say something more specific and context dependent. Or maybe those are what Orobas is referring to, and all ‘Ti barbs’ just sound like “you’re stupid” to Te’ers? Or maybe I just don’t understand what’s meant by ‘Ti barb’.
    TJ's are the most directive or task focused (being both "directive" in the Interaction Styles, and "structure focused" in Keirsey's temperaments, both of which represent forms of "task" as opposed to "people" focus), so that's why they come off that way. I always used to wonder about TP's being portrayed like that. It seems to be overgeneralization about T's; especially NT's.

    TP's will be either directive + motive (STP) or informing + structure (NTP), so this will temper those "barbs". Especially for the NTP's, who are on the informing side in social interaction. They'll shoot out the barbs when you say something really stupid (and they go into conative "structure-focus" mode)!

    FJ's will also be a similar mix of people/task, and FP's will be the diametric opposite of the TJ's; both informing and motive focused, or least overall "directive". (Pointed out on this site, though it does so outside of any temperament and Interaction Style premise: http://www.rogerbissell.com/achilles...tachilles.html).

    Obviously, Te will lead to a very task-focused approach, while Fi will be very people-focused. (You would think Fe would be the most people-focused, but the J aspect of it introduces a measure of task focus as judgment is externalized. Fi focuses purely on the personal side of things. As the site points out, all TP's are extraverting is a perceiving function (P), so the T's task focus will also be tempered).
    So I came to wonder, what does it mean for the "most friendly" EFP's to have the "most directive" Te in third place?

    That's where we get this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    9. Emphasize Te stuff-our external world is Te structure, not Fe structure, thus if you can focus on what we owe others in a tangible way, you’ll make more progress.
    That's interesting, because it explains part of what I've figured, and would sft how the Supine temperament tends to "use tasks to serve people". (The FP's are where the pure Supine, Supine/Sanguine combo's, and the pure Sanguine would be found. "Wanted" behaviors are all high, or "people-focused").
    The tertiary and inferior (as the same author pointed out in a further version of his theory) are basically more "vulnerable" areas, so Te will support Fi, and go along with the typical Fi "people-focus". Only when really stressed will Fi/Te manifest the more aggressive way it is being described.

    Likewise, for the "most directive" TJ's, Fi simply backs up their task-focused Te agenda, making them all the more directive. THIS is where stuff like "stubbornness", "to hell with everyone else" attitudes etc. often generally ascribed to Fi will more often surface. It will be more about defensiveness or safeguarding of turf than for an FP.
    I believe these generalized characterization of Fi are likely the result of T-preferring theorists projecting their own experience of the function on to it.
    Last edited by Eric B; 08-10-2012 at 10:56 AM.
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