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  1. #11
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Totally identify with all your comments, Subtle Fighter!

    In several clashes I've had on TypeC with Fi users (which were then resolved), I've been shocked at this issue of what different things we mean using the same words. I would very much take offense at what (NFP flavoured) Fi users would see as a kindly response, while they feel that I am overly harsh in my response. I also have found the bluntness a strange thing to get used to, although once I've determined how to respond to it and what it means, it makes things fairly straightforward.

    Thanks for writing this, Orobas. I have some more questions to add in a bit.

  2. #12
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    My Ne can sense the abstract reality that you are noticing and trying to describe. Although perception functions might play an important role as well in communications between FiTe and TiFe.

  3. #13
    right on the left wing Philosorapteuse's Avatar
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    Very interesting post. Sheds some light both on why some of the INTJs I know sometimes come off as self-obsessed and closed-minded (and, relatedly, why my Fe rationalising often seems to just result in shutdown. It would never even occur to me that that might appear manipulative. I don't do manipulation. I don't even understand it, really. So that's very interesting.) Also on why it might be that someone will suddenly take exception to something I've said and accuse me of being nasty or "abusive" (my dad's favourite, especially when I was younger), and I'm left bewildered because all I was doing was being playful. Particularly, I knew an ISTJ who would just explode at people for apparently arcane reasons, and refuse to believe that whatever she'd taken exception to had been meant entirely innocently and didn't in fact imply anything further - despite an insistence that she didn't do subtleties, or hints, and that everyone should be direct. Maybe that was failsome Fi, in retrospect?
    "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices." --William James

    I'd be a card-carrying sensotard, but I can't find the goddamn card.

  4. #14
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    I loved it. Though @Orobas, you did go Te-heavy. Some of the 'tell her what to do' would backfire with me as it would cause rebellion from my side due to pressure (not as much as Fe does though). I need more of a: this is what you should do, and HERE IS HOW YOU DO IT. I need someone to teach me how to do the action as my Te isn't....that far along. Often I do know what I need to do, or what my value demands but I avoid doing it as Im scared of getting it wrong, of not being able to follow through on it, of making a bigger mess than it already is. At that point I dont need to be scolded..I need to be guided through it one ore two times, in order to feel comfortable and sure of myself that I can handle said action. And preferably *without* being made to feel stupid, ignorant, or getting a ton of frustration, guilt tripping and impatience from the one guiding me through it. I need to feel safe and be able to focus on what Im to learn, not focus on fixing your foul mood..which I instinctively do if its there. It takes priority imo, as it distracts me completely anyways, so there is no learning at that point.

    The rest of it however, was spot on, imho.


    And I would *LOVE* for FeTi users to ask all their questions (to see how you guys *think*) and for someone of your breed to write a similar post for us FiTe users to chew on.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  5. #15
    right on the left wing Philosorapteuse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I loved it. Though @Orobas, you did go Te-heavy. Some of the 'tell her what to do' would backfire with me as it would cause rebellion from my side due to pressure (not as much as Fe does though). I need more of a: this is what you should do, and HERE IS HOW YOU DO IT. I need someone to teach me how to do the action as my Te isn't....that far along. Often I do know what I need to do, or what my value demands but I avoid doing it as Im scared of getting it wrong, of not being able to follow through on it, of making a bigger mess than it already is. At that point I dont need to be scolded..I need to be guided through it one ore two times, in order to feel comfortable and sure of myself that I can handle said action. And preferably *without* being made to feel stupid, ignorant, or getting a ton of frustration, guilt tripping and impatience from the one guiding me through it. I need to feel safe and be able to focus on what Im to learn, not focus on fixing your foul mood..which I instinctively do if its there. It takes priority imo, as it distracts me completely anyways, so there is no learning at that point.

    The rest of it however, was spot on, imho.


    And I would *LOVE* for FeTi users to ask all their questions (to see how you guys *think*) and for someone of your breed to write a similar post for us FiTe users to chew on.
    This is also interesting. From an INTP perspective, the reason I (we) don't take that approach is that I hate that approach being taken to me! It's just about the worst thing anyone could possibly do to get through to me. It gets read not as helpfulness, but as questioning my competence, which is basically to take a sledgehammer and smash it repeatedly on the INTP self-destruct button (which may also destruct you in the ensuing explosion.) It takes real skill to correct and advise (as opposed to discuss) without pissing off the INTP. Much more fruitful to write up the theory of how things might best be approached, casually leave it in the same room as the INTP, and let them assimilate it as though they'd worked it out themselves. So I'd never have thought that was a good way of approaching someone! Man, people are interestingly different.

    Or is this not actually an INTP thing, and just me being really terrible at being told what to do and how to do it?
    "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices." --William James

    I'd be a card-carrying sensotard, but I can't find the goddamn card.

  6. #16
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    ^Agreed. I often hate being "taught" (and dislike teaching almost as much.. I'd rather just do everything than walk people through... and that's saying a lot, because I'm not one to volunteer help either).

  7. #17
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philosorapteuse View Post
    This is also interesting. From an INTP perspective, the reason I (we) don't take that approach is that I hate that approach being taken to me! It's just about the worst thing anyone could possibly do to get through to me. It gets read not as helpfulness, but as questioning my competence, which is basically to take a sledgehammer and smash it repeatedly on the INTP self-destruct button (which may also destruct you in the ensuing explosion.) It takes real skill to correct and advise (as opposed to discuss) without pissing off the INTP. Much more fruitful to write up the theory of how things might best be approached, casually leave it in the same room as the INTP, and let them assimilate it as though they'd worked it out themselves. So I'd never have thought that was a good way of approaching someone! Man, people are interestingly different.

    Or is this not actually an INTP thing, and just me being really terrible at being told what to do and how to do it?
    Oh I have the same response you do when someone tries to lecture me on something I do just fine, thank you very much. Especially if that someone tries to convince me that their way is superior in some way. So, no, you are not alone. But I am very grateful when someone recognises that I have good intentions but I struggle with the execution of something and gently walks me through it. I have no problem admitting when I suck at something. When I actually *am* incompetent at something. And yes, I like the security of someone who knows what they are doing with me while i learn. So no, at that point it doesnt bother me at all to be told what to do

    It is funny, with IXTPs, when they do ask me for advice, I try to explain clearly how I would handle it, how I think it would be different for them, taking into account their personality, and Ill end it with an offer to walk them through it, if they like, while adding that it is their choice and Im confident they can handle it themselves if that is their preference.

    If i forget the last part, things tend to heat up..really quickly

    Im also the first to say (when I forget it): 'oh no, im not doubting your competence, I just figured youd like some support!' At that point they either smile and look relieved while accepting help or go: Thanks but I got it '

    And Im good with that, I can go either way. If I do walk away at that point, I tend to add: 'Lemme know if you change your mind, Ill be over here'. And I go do something else.


    ...does that work for ya?
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  8. #18
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    I think everyone can stand to be more honest, forthright, and earnest in their thoughts and feelings, and that doing so will avoid these sorts of conflicts. Even if well-intentioned, those "barbs" and sarcasm are rude and disrespectful unless both parties are clear about it being a game. There's also a fine line between sarcasm and verbal irony that is important to keep in mind: verbal irony is more playful, because it doesn't diminish the object, while sarcasm necessarily does.

    Also, as @Orobas mentions, it's counterproductive to try and get inside someone else's head, unless you know that person very intimately. It can be difficult to remember that what makes sense to us does so because not only of differences in the priority we give to types of judgment, but also arising out of decades of experience leading up to that point, experience that is necessarily different for everyone.

    No one is ever wrong for their emotional state, or how that person feels about something. At the same time, any person is only responsible for his own emotional well-being. Directness and clarity in speech, when given without malice, are ideal in any communication between relatively unfamiliar people; outside of extreme circumstances, a faux pas can always be met with a genuine apology.

    I think the main thing that O gets to at the end there is the importance of assuming good faith with people. For the most part, we all try to do the best we can with what we have, and few act with malice or callous disregard. We only have so much attention we can devote to all the consequences of our decisions, however, and things get lost in the shuffle. That doesn't make anyone a bad person, just human and limited.

  9. #19
    right on the left wing Philosorapteuse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Oh I have the same response you do when someone tries to lecture me on something I do just fine, thank you very much. Especially if that someone tries to convince me that their way is superior in some way. So, no, you are not alone. But I am very grateful when someone recognises that I have good intentions but I struggle with the execution of something and gently walks me through it. I have no problem admitting when I suck at something. When I actually *am* incompetent at something. And yes, I like the security of someone who knows what they are doing with me while i learn. So no, at that point it doesnt bother me at all to be told what to do
    Ah, interesting. To me, being lectured on something I already know how to do perfectly well is very irritating, but it's not terrible, because as I can already do it, I can subsequently demonstrate my competence (and, as a bonus, display that the instruction was unnecessary. INTP ego-trips are so petty...) Whereas being lectured on something I *don't* know how to do well is actually worse, because then my incompetence is manifest and I get touchy. Something I've never done at all is uncomfortable, because I have this irrational feeling that I *should* know how to do it, but as I've never done it, it's OK for me to need instruction. And they call NTs rational...

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    It is funny, with IXTPs, when they do ask me for advice, I try to explain clearly how I would handle it, how I think it would be different for them, taking into account their personality, and Ill end it with an offer to walk them through it, if they like, while adding that it is their choice and Im confident they can handle it themselves if that is their preference.

    If i forget the last part, things tend to heat up..really quickly

    Im also the first to say (when I forget it): 'oh no, im not doubting your competence, I just figured youd like some support!' At that point they either smile and look relieved while accepting help or go: Thanks but I got it '

    And Im good with that, I can go either way. If I do walk away at that point, I tend to add: 'Lemme know if you change your mind, Ill be over here'. And I go do something else.


    ...does that work for ya?
    Yeah, that works. And yes, that last bit is important.
    "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices." --William James

    I'd be a card-carrying sensotard, but I can't find the goddamn card.

  10. #20
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philosorapteuse View Post
    Ah, interesting. To me, being lectured on something I already know how to do perfectly well is very irritating, but it's not terrible, because as I can already do it, I can subsequently demonstrate my competence (and, as a bonus, display that the instruction was unnecessary. INTP ego-trips are so petty...) Whereas being lectured on something I *don't* know how to do well is actually worse, because then my incompetence is manifest and I get touchy. Something I've never done at all is uncomfortable, because I have this irrational feeling that I *should* know how to do it, but as I've never done it, it's OK for me to need instruction. And they call NTs rational...



    Yeah, that works. And yes, that last bit is important.

    The bolded is interesting. It is one of my gripes with Fe/peer pressure. I *hate* being treated as a stupid person because Im clueless or inexperienced with something. It makes me feel insecure and like an aweful person coz *clearly* any intelligent person would know how to do this. And it makes me rebel like crazy to show them I dont need their approval. I will refuse to learn that thing out of sheer obstinance. Or, if I feel it is something that is important (for instance at work) to be professional, I feel a deep shame at being paid for somethign I suck at.

    I am open to being taught and I need it (if you leave me to my own devices after putting me down and shaming me, I just stress so hard coz I actually believe I am too stupid to figure it out at that point), but if the person is being impatient, judgemental and resentful for having to tutor me, then I have the same response as to the Fe-peerpressure treatment: either I rebel, or I feel like utter and debilitating shame.

    I need to feel safe and be able to trust the person who is going to show me that they dont mind teaching and dont think Im an idiot. Otherwise Ill just dig in my heels like a mule to protect myself against those feelings.

    I am always busy learning new things on my own so I do not need a tutor..but I am somewhat ashamed as to the process I use, as it gets judged by NTJs as inefficient, and by FeTi as lazy and idiotic (which again, I take as personal attacks, i dont get how they are not meant that way, feeling-wise, that is), so I dont let others see it. I cocoon, far away from anyone, ashamed to show them my progress, and process, while feeding my curiosity . Unfortunately, its often only the theory I learn as execution means someone will notice the results..and I hate failing (which is an essential part of learning) in front of others. So..I only execute, away from others, where Im free to tinker and explore without others breathing down my neck, to master something.


    ...how on earth do you deal with that as an INTP?
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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